Wraiths of Darkness

[Sigismund Himself]

Using sorcerors?

It just seems really far fetched. It's a bit too dangerous for psykers to stand in the warp for centuries and wait to pluck out a Chapter Master as he goes past :) Also, how did he survive as you've mentioned you need extreme protection or psychic powers to survive?

 

Why did his chapter accept him back? Why didn't they put him through tests that would reveal what had been done to him? Why wouldn't he kill himself after being tainted in such a way?

 

Meh. The thing is, he wasn't heretical... at first. He just seemed to be doubtful, nothing a quick trip to the Reclusiarch won't fix. But when his chapter starts dying on him, the AL's words come back... and affect his actions. I think I will need to clear that up more.

Well, if my marines kept disappearing through the warp and some of them come back, I would think I'd put up a testing practise to ensure they aren't tainted.

 

The Wraithes found OMaM

What's its name?

 

OMaM. Don't ask me how it's pronounced.

 

If you like, I'll change it to RaJ.

Just the odd capitalisation is confusing me. I know chaos is insane but they are generally lucid enough to use correct capitalisation :)

 

What you just said... I'll have to challenge you on that one. Have you ever met someone who was just naturally talented at what they did? That's how I view the geneseed. Sure, you can teach White Scars to be stealthy, and Raven Guard to be great raiders, but in the end White Scare tend to be better raiders and Raven Guard tend to be better at sneaking around.

 

They'll get trained extensively in whatever area it is, but that's to accentuate their natural skill.

Well, I don't think geneseed has the much impact on them. It's the old 'nature vs nurture' debate.

 

Third item on the to do list... explain and define Summonings

It's more the placement of the first mention of them, you explain them well enough further on.

 

Yes. Plundering and looting, that's nice, having lots of supplies, that really helps. But their only true, main, and permanent goal is to simply survive. They would rather hide in the Eye for thousands of years, building up numbers than to destroy Terra.

Well, since your guys are pissing everyone off by eliminating their leaders and acquiring large piles of loot, you'd think that they would be ripe for the taking by one of the larger warbands or even one of the Legions.

 

But... but... that is part of the chapter/warband. This is an avatar of their greatest warriors and their preferential warfare. It's an icon of what these guys are about.

So's Marneus Calgar to the Ultramarines but how much of a mention does he get in IA: UM?

 

I would honestly delegate the job of dragging stuff back to the fleet to the serfs. The Astartes' job is to fight and kill.

 

I was going for the marines grabbing the stuff and teleporting it back.

As I say below, I think Chaos marines are the type who kill everyone around the stuff and then call the serfs to lug it back home. Even the raiding guys.

 

Veins of ore and metal, oil wells and the like are highly valuable. The raiding force views these as the highest priorities, and the loot keeper who found it is usually rewarded well.

So they're miners now? This honestly sounds just a bit silly.

 

No... But they still need natural resources, and they still have their gear from loyalist days, so they use it.

 

I was actually thinking of a perimeter being set up, and then a couple of guys teleport with the mining gear and start stealing for what their worth.

It really doesn't fit in with what I'd envisage Chaos Marines really doing. They're generally the 'enslave the population to dig minerals for us' kind of guys.

 

The most trusted loot keepers are tasked with raiding Forge Worlds. These resource rich planets are irresistable targets for the Wraithes, and so are most often dispatched one of the last three Summonings to raid them.

So you've got a force of least than 300 marines attempting to raid some of the highest security worlds in the Imperium? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

I said Last Three Summonings. didn't I? And didn't I specify that the last three summonings were the elites of the whole warband, and each summoning was only about 20 marines strong?

 

I did also say one of them, didn't I?

Ah, I accidentally misread that as least, as in the worst. But still. Forgeworld withstand the might of entire Waaghs by themselves. A bunch of 20 marines isn't going to get far around the paranoid Mechanicus you'd think, even if they are able to teleport.

 

The only time when the Wraithes take to war is when they are paid for it. Often, this involves targeting other Chaos Warbands.

Why? Who would pay them to attack other Chaos warbands?

 

Other Chaos Warbands...?

You'd think that they would just fight them themselves. And if they start annoying other warbands in such a way, you'd think a few of them would gang up to get the Wraiths back.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

It just seems really far fetched. It's a bit too dangerous for psykers to stand in the warp for centuries and wait to pluck out a Chapter Master as he goes past :P Also, how did he survive as you've mentioned you need extreme protection or psychic powers to survive?

 

This is like argueing tameto vs. tameto (pronunciatian wise). I could honestly see them being able to do it, you can't. Whatever danger is possible, supplicate the Warp.

 

Well, if my marines kept disappearing through the warp and some of them come back, I would think I'd put up a testing practise to ensure they aren't tainted.

 

They did. And he wasn't. But when his chapter started going, he began to have doubts.

 

Just the odd capitalisation is confusing me. I know chaos is insane but they are generally lucid enough to use correct capitalisation ;)

 

I meant to maybe add a little to daemonic nature of it... by messing up it's name (and not just typing random syllables to do it, although you can't seee the Of Mice and Men or Romeo and Juliet references hidden there).

 

Well, I don't think geneseed has the much impact on them. It's the old 'nature vs nurture' debate.

 

Right. And I'm on the nature side, and you're on the nurture side :D

 

It's more the placement of the first mention of them, you explain them well enough further on.

 

Alright then, I'll do that instead.

 

Well, since your guys are pissing everyone off by eliminating their leaders and acquiring large piles of loot, you'd think that they would be ripe for the taking by one of the larger warbands or even one of the Legions.

 

I missed named homeworld. It should be 'recruiting ground'.

 

That's my own fault, but I forgot to mention that I had envisaged them being solely on the warband fleet.

 

So's Marneus Calgar to the Ultramarines but how much of a mention does he get in IA: UM?

 

Quite a bit.... :D I still consider it important to have him in there. Not as a major part of it, but still just adding to the feel I am trying to create.

 

As I say below, I think Chaos marines are the type who kill everyone around the stuff and then call the serfs to lug it back home. Even the raiding guys.

 

It really doesn't fit in with what I'd envisage Chaos Marines really doing. They're generally the 'enslave the population to dig minerals for us' kind of guys.

 

Hmmm... that's another thing I will have to add in - they don't conquer territory. They stay in their little corner of the galaxy and are paid to strike from there. Well, except when they need supplies - that's when they go and raid places.

 

Thus, we have the only source of natural materials is what they randomly find, and that is just a little below what's needed. So, they have the marines mining it.

 

Hmmm.... Maybe I should drop the 'haughty, aloof' marines and go for the 'we do what we must to survive' spin on it.

 

Ah, I accidentally misread that as least, as in the worst. But still. Forgeworld withstand the might of entire Waaghs by themselves. A bunch of 20 marines isn't going to get far around the paranoid Mechanicus you'd think, even if they are able to teleport.

 

That's why they're very sneaky :lol: You do bring up a point - the Ad Mech are extremely paranoid. My answer would be something along the lines of "so the Wraiths have to be more paranoid, but I don't think that will work.

 

Maybe having several attempts to have it done, but only a few have succeeded? It's still uber tempting, but the low success rate has put them off?

 

You'd think that they would just fight them themselves. And if they start annoying other warbands in such a way, you'd think a few of them would gang up to get the Wraiths back.

 

Um... the point of the Wraith's involvement in the first place isn't to conquer and destroy warbands on their own. The Wraiths are used as a supplement to an already existing force, the force that paid them - they don't just go crippling warbands in their free time!

 

Again, they raid the Imperium for supplies, but only attack other warbands when they are paid for it. As a result of that, they are seen more of as those hired guns who really screwed up our counterattack (or whatever), not as the force that wanted to attack them in the first place.

 

They are a nuisance. But they didn't do it because they themselves were out for you, they did it because they were paid to.

 

Another thing - they can always turn down an offer. The Wraiths are smart enough not to mess with the legions or the warbands like the Red Corsairs.

[Viray]

This is like argueing tameto vs. tameto (pronunciatian wise). I could honestly see them being able to do it, you can't. Whatever danger is possible, supplicate the Warp.

A little different actually. :P

 

The thing is about IAs, and writing in general, is that it does not really matter whether you, the author, can see something happening in your work. You are the author, what would you expect? Your job is to make your readeres see the same thing as you; if they cannot, you are not doing your job right.

 

Sigismund Himself said it was implausible, not impossible. That, of course, implies that you just need to flesh this little bit out, add rhyme to your reason, and all will be well.

 

Hmmm... that's another thing I will have to add in - they don't conquer territory. They stay in their little corner of the galaxy and are paid to strike from there. Well, except when they need supplies - that's when they go and raid places.

 

Thus, we have the only source of natural materials is what they randomly find, and that is just a little below what's needed. So, they have the marines mining it.

 

Hmmm.... Maybe I should drop the 'haughty, aloof' marines and go for the 'we do what we must to survive' spin on it.

Well, if you still want to keep the arrogant side of the Wraithes, you can say they keep a number of serfs/slaves to do all the menial work. I mean, what self-respecting Chaos Marine would be seen mucking around the dirt? ;)

 

However, if you do go with the "survival at all costs" route, I can definitely see them being more pragmatic.

 

Um... the point of the Wraith's involvement in the first place isn't to conquer and destroy warbands on their own. The Wraiths are used as a supplement to an already existing force, the force that paid them - they don't just go crippling warbands in their free time!

 

Again, they raid the Imperium for supplies, but only attack other warbands when they are paid for it. As a result of that, they are seen more of as those hired guns who really screwed up our counterattack (or whatever), not as the force that wanted to attack them in the first place.

 

They are a nuisance. But they didn't do it because they themselves were out for you, they did it because they were paid to.

 

Another thing - they can always turn down an offer. The Wraiths are smart enough not to mess with the legions or the warbands like the Red Corsairs.

Just need to expand upon that then (I'm sure you're already going to do it anyway, but since it was brought up, might as well comment on it to make sure).

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

"A little different actually.

 

The thing is about IAs, and writing in general, is that it does not really matter whether you, the author, can see something happening in your work. You are the author, what would you expect? Your job is to make your readeres see the same thing as you; if they cannot, you are not doing your job right.

 

Sigismund Himself said it was implausible, not impossible. That, of course, implies that you just need to flesh this little bit out, add rhyme to your reason, and all will be well."

 

I figured it would slow the story down, but it would depend on how I write it. Will see what I can do.

 

"Well, if you still want to keep the arrogant side of the Wraithes, you can say they keep a number of serfs/slaves to do all the menial work. I mean, what self-respecting Chaos Marine would be seen mucking around the dirt?

 

However, if you do go with the "survival at all costs" route, I can definitely see them being more pragmatic."

 

Survival at all costs is what it's going to be from now on then.

 

"Just need to expand upon that then (I'm sure you're already going to do it anyway, but since it was brought up, might as well comment on it to make sure)."

 

Don't worry Viray, it'll get in there.

[Apothete]

This is like argueing tameto vs. tameto (pronunciatian wise). I could honestly see them being able to do it, you can't. Whatever danger is possible, supplicate the Warp.

 

No, this is more akin to you making a fiat declaration and Sigismund showing you the glaring plot holes that come with said statement.

 

The only resemblance that his statements have to your comparison is that it does, in essence, come down to personal taste. However, you're gettting criticism from one of the most respected and reasonable voices on the site, someone trusted to have enough even-handed judgement and character that he gets to run the Librarium. Perhaps it might be a good idea to put down your justifications and self-righteousness for a moment and consider what he has to say.

 

For what it's worth, he's right. Your explanation is weak and contradictory.

 

I meant to maybe add a little to daemonic nature of it... by messing up it's name (and not just typing random syllables to do it, although you can't seee the Of Mice and Men or Romeo and Juliet references hidden there).

 

What's so much less random about playing with capitalization rather than pronunciation? Also, how is throwing out acronyms with no hint of context around them in any way making a reference?

 

Right. And I'm on the nature side, and you're on the nurture side

 

You're making fiat declarations again.

 

The way that geneseed works has next to nothing to do with the mind itself, aside from whatever nueral linkages are needed for the other organs and the few alterations that directly take place within the brain. As such, there's next to no reason to assume that anything - aside from the possibile argument about genetic potential - stems from the geneseed that isn't, at heart, either phenotypal and fairly surface in nature or so deep-seated that it affects temperament. Even those Chapters which seem to possess supposed genetic memories, like the Blood Angels, gain nothing beneficial from it and instead suffer the lingering ill effects of a curse that resounds through their blood even to this day.

 

Claiming that your Marines are predisposed to certain roles because of their geneseed is, frankly, silly and breaks the suspension of disbelief. Even if we were to take the examples which you gave and cite the Raven Guard and White Scars, I would be entirely willing to believe that a neophyte secretly taken from one or the other and placed in the opposite Chapter would likely grow to be a competent member of his foundling Brothers' Companies. Perhaps little oddities would surface, peccadillos that mark them as slightly different, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that the Scars excel at raiding because of their geneline more than they do their training and selection criteria - the latter two enhacing the former.

 

It's the combination of talent, rearing, indoctrination, and the weight of tradition that makes an Astartes, not just the source of his progenoids.

 

Um... the point of the Wraith's involvement in the first place isn't to conquer and destroy warbands on their own. The Wraiths are used as a supplement to an already existing force, the force that paid them - they don't just go crippling warbands in their free time!

 

Paid or not, why wouldn't those that they attack come after them for revenge?

 

Do you think that an enemy you killed for money is any less likely to raze your stronghold to the ground, should they find it, than if you had shot their commander for personal reason?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

This is like argueing tameto vs. tameto (pronunciatian wise). I could honestly see them being able to do it, you can't. Whatever danger is possible, supplicate the Warp.

 

No, this is more akin to you making a fiat declaration and Sigismund showing you the glaring plot holes that come with said statement.

 

The only resemblance that his statements have to your comparison is that it does, in essence, come down to personal taste. However, you're gettting criticism from one of the most respected and reasonable voices on the site, someone trusted to have enough even-handed judgement and character that he gets to run the Librarium. Perhaps it might be a good idea to put down your justifications and self-righteousness for a moment and consider what he has to say.

 

For what it's worth, he's right. Your explanation is weak and contradictory.

 

I meant to maybe add a little to daemonic nature of it... by messing up it's name (and not just typing random syllables to do it, although you can't seee the Of Mice and Men or Romeo and Juliet references hidden there).

 

What's so much less random about playing with capitalization rather than pronunciation? Also, how is throwing out acronyms with no hint of context around them in any way making a reference?

 

Right. And I'm on the nature side, and you're on the nurture side

 

You're making fiat declarations again.

 

The way that geneseed works has next to nothing to do with the mind itself, aside from whatever nueral linkages are needed for the other organs and the few alterations that directly take place within the brain. As such, there's next to no reason to assume that anything - aside from the possibile argument about genetic potential - stems from the geneseed that isn't, at heart, either phenotypal and fairly surface in nature or so deep-seated that it affects temperament. Even those Chapters which seem to possess supposed genetic memories, like the Blood Angels, gain nothing beneficial from it and instead suffer the lingering ill effects of a curse that resounds through their blood even to this day.

 

Claiming that your Marines are predisposed to certain roles because of their geneseed is, frankly, silly and breaks the suspension of disbelief. Even if we were to take the examples which you gave and cite the Raven Guard and White Scars, I would be entirely willing to believe that a neophyte secretly taken from one or the other and placed in the opposite Chapter would likely grow to be a competent member of his foundling Brothers' Companies. Perhaps little oddities would surface, peccadillos that mark them as slightly different, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that the Scars excel at raiding because of their geneline more than they do their training and selection criteria - the latter two enhacing the former.

 

It's the combination of talent, rearing, indoctrination, and the weight of tradition that makes an Astartes, not just the source of his progenoids.

 

Um... the point of the Wraith's involvement in the first place isn't to conquer and destroy warbands on their own. The Wraiths are used as a supplement to an already existing force, the force that paid them - they don't just go crippling warbands in their free time!

 

Paid or not, why wouldn't those that they attack come after them for revenge?

 

Do you think that an enemy you killed for money is any less likely to raze your stronghold to the ground, should they find it, than if you had shot their commander for personal reason?

 

It's only glaring plot holes if you can't see them being able to do it.

 

I wouldn't have put it in their if I thought it would never happen in universe. It just wouldn't make snese for me to.

 

Also, why am I self righteous? And why is it contradictory?

 

Also, I have no wish to insult Sigismund. He's been around longer and knows what he is talking about. I was merely trying to explain it from my point of view, so that he could see why I was putting what I was putting in the IT. Simple as.

 

If I gave any other impression, I apoligize, for that wasn't my intent.

 

Because typing out random syllables is as old and as predicatble as it gets. Messing with capitilization isn't.

 

I may be making a flat declaration, but it's true. I am on the nature side, he is on the nurture side. Simple statement made specifically to clear things up, and explain my point of view.

 

And how do you know how geneseed works? You are assuming that's how it works. And if you want me to explain why I think it affects the mind, I'll tell you to read the Space Wolves omnibus. The way it describes it, it's as though the minds of the recruits are changed "Sven didn't seem to know that he was constantly muttering to himself, and Lars was unaware that he was constantly sniffing the air. Perhaps there were changes within Ragnar's own behaviour that he didn't realize."

 

This hints that it affects the mind as well. I can point to other BL books that support my statement.

 

It is a combination of those things - but it also includes the natural talent that the geneseed instills in them.

 

I think it would depend on who was attacked, although I'm pretty sure they would go after the payer first.

[Walter Payton]

One of the main reasons the Nephilim was an excellent IT was that it went into depth about such things. I seek to make my ITs and IAs similar in the respect that they are also very detailed and realistic.

 

I think you are also assuming that I am just trying to put stuff in; the idea of loot keepers popped into my head and it seemed to fit perfectly, so I added it. Simple as.

 

But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

 

The Nephillim was an excellent IT. However, going into excessive depth is not the way to make an IT better-No amount of tedious detail will save a clanger (as I foundout to my cost with the Angels Crimson). The purpose of an IT is to develop character, not tell us in sizzlingly tedious detail how your Chapter Master likes his steaks done (still bleeding for me, since you ask).

 

The Nephillim did go into detail, almost too much, but had excellent development of character, to the point that the high level of detail behind it did not detract from the character of the warband-although I am not necessarily saying that this IT does not, if you are going to go down the massive detail route, then you have to make damn sure that you are going to have character development behind it. Here, I am not seeing this.

 

Again, Teleporting about reeks of Mary Sue, hinting at it would be better-as Sigismund Himself said, and bear in mind that he is one of the Codiciers (of which there are only two), so I would give extra weight to what he says-GW fluff is not like normal history or literature, where one can agree to disagree, because there is not a morass of differing points of view, there is only what a writer gives us. In this case, Teleportation is presented as a very rare and delicate technology, and never as a Chaos gift-whilst it is conceivable such a gift could occur, why doesn't Abbadon have it-he needs it more that these guys. And don't say geneseed, because geneseed is simply a lump of tissue, containing special strands of DNA and various zygotes. It is not a psychically dominating cancer, and it could not work in the way you suggest. Teleportation is not a bad idea, per say, but an traitor entire chapter who can do it would have danced a jig on the Emperor's body by now-hint but don't say.

 

Now I'm going to respond to your reply to Apothere:

 

It's only glaring plot holes if you can't see them being able to do it.

 

Which neither one of the two people who run the Librarium, or an extremely respected poster and author of one of the best IAs I've ever seen can. That should tell you something...

 

I wouldn't have put it in their if I thought it would never happen in universe. It just wouldn't make snese for me to.

 

Would it be so hard to countenance the possibility that you are incorrect? No offence, but I come down on the side of Apothete and Sigismund here, as does Ace Debonair and a few others ...

 

Because typing out random syllables is as old and as predicatble as it gets. Messing with capitilization isn't.

 

It does, however, look kinda silly. Perhaps adding 'ium' or 'holm' or 'gard' or 'heim to a Latin or other old language word-they are the Wraiths of Darkness, so how about combining 'Night' (Nox) and 'ium', to get Noctium, or Noxgard, or Noxholm, or Noxheim? Find a latin dictionary and blast away. Or you could add some of those funny Czech squiggles or French accents...

 

And how do you know how geneseed works? You are assuming that's how it works. And if you want me to explain why I think it affects the mind, I'll tell you to read the Space Wolves omnibus. The way it describes it, it's as though the minds of the recruits are changed "Sven didn't seem to know that he was constantly muttering to himself, and Lars was unaware that he was constantly sniffing the air. Perhaps there were changes within Ragnar's own behaviour that he didn't realize."

 

This hints that it affects the mind as well. I can point to other BL books that support my statement.

 

Actually, it is the Wolf Spirit of Russ, preserved genetically within the Canix Helix, that causes their minds to change. In fact, SW geneseed is one of the most unstable and unknown geneseeds in the Galaxy, hence why only one chapter uses it. Yes, the Wolves and the Blood Angels change, but what about the Salamanders, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Dark Angels? And if geneseed is mind altering, why do they bother with hypnotherapy and psycho-conditioning? And pointing to BL is worthless, as the BL does not really exist, to quote the Octaguide.

 

Right, that's me finished being blunt and cranky, back to my Titan MIU...

 

(*stalks off muttering)

[Apothete]

It's only glaring plot holes if you can't see them being able to do it.

 

I wouldn't have put it in their if I thought it would never happen in universe. It just wouldn't make snese for me to.

 

I'm going to try to rephrase what I said above, since it doesn't seem to have gotten through to you yet.

 

We're not here to discuss what you think is plausible, but rather to show you where the things that you claim you want us to take from the writeup either don't show up, don't stand up, or make no sense. It doesn't matter how plausible you think that an idea is if the concept isn't being sold to the audience, unless you don't care what they think. If that's the case, then everyone providing responses that aren't just cheerleading is wasting their time. However, if you're interested in bettering the article and making the most solid, well-written presentation that you can, then you need to either find a way to correct the mistakes or to find new ideas.

 

Basically, your choices are to ignore your critics and do what you want or to take our advice for what it's mean to convey and make modifications. As it stands, telling us that what you've already written does something which we say that it doesn't is just sticking your fingers in your ears and making noises. Either you're communicating to tell a story and interest the reader or you're just throwing things on paper.

 

Decide which you're doing.

 

And why is it contradictory?

 

It was spelled out for you already.

 

Also, I have no wish to insult Sigismund. He's been around longer and knows what he is talking about. I was merely trying to explain it from my point of view, so that he could see why I was putting what I was putting in the IT. Simple as.

 

Don't explain it in comments, improve the writing so that you don't have to explain.

 

Because typing out random syllables is as old and as predicatble as it gets. Messing with capitilization isn't.

 

It's still silly and relatively pointless, conveying nothing of worth and cheapening your Chapter needlessly. This is a place where either historical, cultural, or other reference would probably be your friend.

 

I may be making a flat declaration, but it's true. I am on the nature side, he is on the nurture side. Simple statement made specifically to clear things up, and explain my point of view.

 

You're doing it again.

 

And how do you know how geneseed works? You are assuming that's how it works.

 

Um, no.

 

I'm going by the Index Astartes article published the Games Workshop studio that tells you what each organ is, where it goes, how it interacts, and at what phase in a Marine's development its implanted. The geneseed qua geneseed is not a psychically or mentally altering body, though there are deviant genelines that do suffer from some particularly noteworthy elements of cognitive change. The Space Wolves are one of those Chapters, and they happen to be so genetically unstable that no successor was ever created, past the failed experiment of the Wolf Brothers.

 

Citing Black Library for anything other the flavor text is a bad precedent, and I say that as someone who enjoys reading their books. The consistency with established canon is often... askew, at best.

 

The way it describes it, it's as though the minds of the recruits are changed "Sven didn't seem to know that he was constantly muttering to himself, and Lars was unaware that he was constantly sniffing the air. Perhaps there were changes within Ragnar's own behaviour that he didn't realize."

 

The Canis Helix is a mutation, one which a younger Chapter probably would not be suffered to perpetuate. Also, since you want to bring up the Omnibus as some kind of source, you should probably include that every recruit is mortally terrified of becoming a wulfen, a fate known to happen to those amongst their number who can't reign in their baser impulses.

 

Of course, that's an inconvenient balance to the idea of using gene-coded mental acuities in your own Chapter, rather than the helpful example you presented it as.

 

It is a combination of those things - but it also includes the natural talent that the geneseed instills in them.

 

No, it's a "talent" inflicted alongside mutations and degredations that have made their progenoids almost worthless to the Imperium at large. The Space Wolves suffer battle rages that get their youthful neophytes killed, show signs of taint and mutation in their ranks which are encouraged to develop further, operate in ways which step broadly across the separation of powers instituted after the Heresy, and generally provide an example of what a Chapter shouldn't be if they want to be law-abiding, comparatively normal Astartes.

 

I think it would depend on who was attacked, although I'm pretty sure they would go after the payer first.

 

I'm sure that the ravening hordes of Chaos will pause to ask who paid the Wraiths who paid them, or even know that they were mercenaries in the first place, while they're busy prosecuting a war of revenge...

 

You're making assumptions that just don't stand up to scrutiny here. Nearly every justification that you've given so far has been "I believe" rather than "this makes logical sense because of X, Y, and Z." That's fine, but it's also not consistent with the universe that you're supposedly attempting to write within. Even when you do present evidence, it's often backed with short statements that amount to personal opinion or, to be honest, what read to me like misinterpretations.

 

You can write to your opinions, you can even do so on this forum, but anyone who knows how things work and who cares to point out your article's weaknesses or flaws will see them as what they are.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

It's only glaring plot holes if you can't see them being able to do it.

 

I wouldn't have put it in their if I thought it would never happen in universe. It just wouldn't make snese for me to.

 

I'm going to try to rephrase what I said above, since it doesn't seem to have gotten through to you yet.

 

We're not here to discuss what you think is plausible, but rather to show you where the things that you claim you want us to take from the writeup either don't show up, don't stand up, or make no sense. It doesn't matter how plausible you think that an idea is if the concept isn't being sold to the audience, unless you don't care what they think. If that's the case, then everyone providing responses that aren't just cheerleading is wasting their time. However, if you're interested in bettering the article and making the most solid, well-written presentation that you can, then you need to either find a way to correct the mistakes or to find new ideas.

 

Basically, your choices are to ignore your critics and do what you want or to take our advice for what it's mean to convey and make modifications. As it stands, telling us that what you've already written does something which we say that it doesn't is just sticking your fingers in your ears and making noises. Either you're communicating to tell a story and interest the reader or you're just throwing things on paper.

 

Decide which you're doing.

 

And why is it contradictory?

 

It was spelled out for you already.

 

Also, I have no wish to insult Sigismund. He's been around longer and knows what he is talking about. I was merely trying to explain it from my point of view, so that he could see why I was putting what I was putting in the IT. Simple as.

 

Don't explain it in comments, improve the writing so that you don't have to explain.

 

Because typing out random syllables is as old and as predicatble as it gets. Messing with capitilization isn't.

 

It's still silly and relatively pointless, conveying nothing of worth and cheapening your Chapter needlessly. This is a place where either historical, cultural, or other reference would probably be your friend.

 

I may be making a flat declaration, but it's true. I am on the nature side, he is on the nurture side. Simple statement made specifically to clear things up, and explain my point of view.

 

You're doing it again.

 

And how do you know how geneseed works? You are assuming that's how it works.

 

Um, no.

 

I'm going by the Index Astartes article published the Games Workshop studio that tells you what each organ is, where it goes, how it interacts, and at what phase in a Marine's development its implanted. The geneseed qua geneseed is not a psychically or mentally altering body, though there are deviant genelines that do suffer from some particularly noteworthy elements of cognitive change. The Space Wolves are one of those Chapters, and they happen to be so genetically unstable that no successor was ever created, past the failed experiment of the Wolf Brothers.

 

Citing Black Library for anything other the flavor text is a bad precedent, and I say that as someone who enjoys reading their books. The consistency with established canon is often... askew, at best.

 

The way it describes it, it's as though the minds of the recruits are changed "Sven didn't seem to know that he was constantly muttering to himself, and Lars was unaware that he was constantly sniffing the air. Perhaps there were changes within Ragnar's own behaviour that he didn't realize."

 

The Canis Helix is a mutation, one which a younger Chapter probably would not be suffered to perpetuate. Also, since you want to bring up the Omnibus as some kind of source, you should probably include that every recruit is mortally terrified of becoming a wulfen, a fate known to happen to those amongst their number who can't reign in their baser impulses.

 

Of course, that's an inconvenient balance to the idea of using gene-coded mental acuities in your own Chapter, rather than the helpful example you presented it as.

 

It is a combination of those things - but it also includes the natural talent that the geneseed instills in them.

 

No, it's a "talent" inflicted alongside mutations and degredations that have made their progenoids almost worthless to the Imperium at large. The Space Wolves suffer battle rages that get their youthful neophytes killed, show signs of taint and mutation in their ranks which are encouraged to develop further, operate in ways which step broadly across the separation of powers instituted after the Heresy, and generally provide an example of what a Chapter shouldn't be if they want to be law-abiding, comparatively normal Astartes.

 

I think it would depend on who was attacked, although I'm pretty sure they would go after the payer first.

 

I'm sure that the ravening hordes of Chaos will pause to ask who paid the Wraiths who paid them, or even know that they were mercenaries in the first place, while they're busy prosecuting a war of revenge...

 

You're making assumptions that just don't stand up to scrutiny here. Nearly every justification that you've given so far has been "I believe" rather than "this makes logical sense because of X, Y, and Z." That's fine, but it's also not consistent with the universe that you're supposedly attempting to write within. Even when you do present evidence, it's often backed with short statements that amount to personal opinion or, to be honest, what read to me like misinterpretations.

 

You can write to your opinions, you can even do so on this forum, but anyone who knows how things work and who cares to point out your article's weaknesses or flaws will see them as what they are.

 

 

There is one thing I have to throw in here first - you say I am giving justifications merely because I beleive them. I beleive what I beleive for a reason, including X, Y, and Z - I am merely assuming that you understand what I am drawing my justifications from. I showed you what I was drawing it from with the SW example, not the others. Hence the confusion.

 

Although it seems strange to me that you are argueing against how I conduct my arguments as opposed to the arguments themselves, and in doing so, derailing this thread. Partially - maybe even mostly - my own fault, I will admit.

 

" If that's the case, then everyone providing responses that aren't just cheerleading is wasting their time. "

 

Seconded. This is why I am trying to show you my point of view, so that they might see it from my point of view and help make my point of view, from which I am basing my arguments into the IT, so that it might be more plausible and beleivable with a simple rewording. With that being the end result, both of us will have done their job. However, I seem to be lacking.

 

Let's go back to the beginning. The following qoutes are from the original topic, by Sigismund.

 

"It just seems really far fetched. It's a bit too dangerous for psykers to stand in the warp for centuries and wait to pluck out a Chapter Master as he goes past Also, how did he survive as you've mentioned you need extreme protection or psychic powers to survive?"

 

I am assuming they have psykers who foresee an opportunity, and supplicate the Warp so that it might protect the Chapter Master whilst delivering him to them. I see this as possible, because this is 40k we are talking about and if it helps make a plot line work without contradicting fluff (both of which are fulfilled) it can happen. Alpha Legion is chosen because they have a penchant for trying to affect things sneakily, in this case plucking a Chapter Master out of the Warp and causing him to eventually turn his chapter to Chaos and so help topple the Imperium. None of the other legions would really attempt something like that.

 

"Well, if my marines kept disappearing through the warp and some of them come back, I would think I'd put up a testing practise to ensure they aren't tainted."

 

And he wasn't. He was faithful to the Emperor; the Alpha Legion hadn't broken him. But that wasn't their goal; their goal was to plant a seed of doubt that would resurrect itself when the the chapter went through it's crisis, and there was nothing the chapter master could do.

 

"Well, I don't think geneseed has the much impact on them. It's the old 'nature vs nurture' debate. "

 

Right. However, the Wraiths, much like myself, don't beleive it's nurture though. This is the universe where everybody is racist, and they think long the lines of "Angron's marines are all just berzerkers, it must be something to do with the geneseed." Both to me and to them it makes complete sense.

 

 

"Well, since your guys are pissing everyone off by eliminating their leaders and acquiring large piles of loot, you'd think that they would be ripe for the taking by one of the larger warbands or even one of the Legions. "

 

Not everyone (but a large amount), and the Wraiths can turn down an offer. They are smart enough not to attack a large splinter of a legion or particularily threatening warband.

 

I also have to point out that the Wraiths are a supplement to an already existing force; most of their jobs aren't in the realm of taking out warlords either. They are there to ensure victory and always provide a much higher percerntage of success. Success often involves crushing the enemy warband and absorbing the survivors into the hirer's own warband.

 

I gotta go. But is this more along the lines you seem to be thinking?

 

It's only glaring plot holes if you can't see them being able to do it.

 

I wouldn't have put it in their if I thought it would never happen in universe. It just wouldn't make snese for me to.

 

I'm going to try to rephrase what I said above, since it doesn't seem to have gotten through to you yet.

 

We're not here to discuss what you think is plausible, but rather to show you where the things that you claim you want us to take from the writeup either don't show up, don't stand up, or make no sense. It doesn't matter how plausible you think that an idea is if the concept isn't being sold to the audience, unless you don't care what they think. If that's the case, then everyone providing responses that aren't just cheerleading is wasting their time. However, if you're interested in bettering the article and making the most solid, well-written presentation that you can, then you need to either find a way to correct the mistakes or to find new ideas.

 

Basically, your choices are to ignore your critics and do what you want or to take our advice for what it's mean to convey and make modifications. As it stands, telling us that what you've already written does something which we say that it doesn't is just sticking your fingers in your ears and making noises. Either you're communicating to tell a story and interest the reader or you're just throwing things on paper.

 

Decide which you're doing.

 

And why is it contradictory?

 

It was spelled out for you already.

 

Also, I have no wish to insult Sigismund. He's been around longer and knows what he is talking about. I was merely trying to explain it from my point of view, so that he could see why I was putting what I was putting in the IT. Simple as.

 

Don't explain it in comments, improve the writing so that you don't have to explain.

 

Because typing out random syllables is as old and as predicatble as it gets. Messing with capitilization isn't.

 

It's still silly and relatively pointless, conveying nothing of worth and cheapening your Chapter needlessly. This is a place where either historical, cultural, or other reference would probably be your friend.

 

I may be making a flat declaration, but it's true. I am on the nature side, he is on the nurture side. Simple statement made specifically to clear things up, and explain my point of view.

 

You're doing it again.

 

And how do you know how geneseed works? You are assuming that's how it works.

 

Um, no.

 

I'm going by the Index Astartes article published the Games Workshop studio that tells you what each organ is, where it goes, how it interacts, and at what phase in a Marine's development its implanted. The geneseed qua geneseed is not a psychically or mentally altering body, though there are deviant genelines that do suffer from some particularly noteworthy elements of cognitive change. The Space Wolves are one of those Chapters, and they happen to be so genetically unstable that no successor was ever created, past the failed experiment of the Wolf Brothers.

 

Citing Black Library for anything other the flavor text is a bad precedent, and I say that as someone who enjoys reading their books. The consistency with established canon is often... askew, at best.

 

The way it describes it, it's as though the minds of the recruits are changed "Sven didn't seem to know that he was constantly muttering to himself, and Lars was unaware that he was constantly sniffing the air. Perhaps there were changes within Ragnar's own behaviour that he didn't realize."

 

The Canis Helix is a mutation, one which a younger Chapter probably would not be suffered to perpetuate. Also, since you want to bring up the Omnibus as some kind of source, you should probably include that every recruit is mortally terrified of becoming a wulfen, a fate known to happen to those amongst their number who can't reign in their baser impulses.

 

Of course, that's an inconvenient balance to the idea of using gene-coded mental acuities in your own Chapter, rather than the helpful example you presented it as.

 

It is a combination of those things - but it also includes the natural talent that the geneseed instills in them.

 

No, it's a "talent" inflicted alongside mutations and degredations that have made their progenoids almost worthless to the Imperium at large. The Space Wolves suffer battle rages that get their youthful neophytes killed, show signs of taint and mutation in their ranks which are encouraged to develop further, operate in ways which step broadly across the separation of powers instituted after the Heresy, and generally provide an example of what a Chapter shouldn't be if they want to be law-abiding, comparatively normal Astartes.

 

I think it would depend on who was attacked, although I'm pretty sure they would go after the payer first.

 

I'm sure that the ravening hordes of Chaos will pause to ask who paid the Wraiths who paid them, or even know that they were mercenaries in the first place, while they're busy prosecuting a war of revenge...

 

You're making assumptions that just don't stand up to scrutiny here. Nearly every justification that you've given so far has been "I believe" rather than "this makes logical sense because of X, Y, and Z." That's fine, but it's also not consistent with the universe that you're supposedly attempting to write within. Even when you do present evidence, it's often backed with short statements that amount to personal opinion or, to be honest, what read to me like misinterpretations.

 

You can write to your opinions, you can even do so on this forum, but anyone who knows how things work and who cares to point out your article's weaknesses or flaws will see them as what they are.

 

 

There is one thing I have to throw in here first - you say I am giving justifications merely because I beleive them. I beleive what I beleive for a reason, including X, Y, and Z - I am merely assuming that you understand what I am drawing my justifications from. I showed you what I was drawing it from with the SW example, not the others. Hence the confusion.

 

Although it seems strange to me that you are argueing against how I conduct my arguments as opposed to the arguments themselves, and in doing so, derailing this thread. Partially - maybe even mostly - my own fault, I will admit.

 

" If that's the case, then everyone providing responses that aren't just cheerleading is wasting their time. "

 

Seconded. This is why I am trying to show you my point of view, so that they might see it from my point of view and help make my point of view, from which I am basing my arguments into the IT, so that it might be more plausible and beleivable with a simple rewording. With that being the end result, both of us will have done their job. However, I seem to be lacking.

 

Let's go back to the beginning. The following qoutes are from the original topic, by Sigismund.

 

"It just seems really far fetched. It's a bit too dangerous for psykers to stand in the warp for centuries and wait to pluck out a Chapter Master as he goes past Also, how did he survive as you've mentioned you need extreme protection or psychic powers to survive?"

 

I am assuming they have psykers who foresee an opportunity, and supplicate the Warp so that it might protect the Chapter Master whilst delivering him to them. I see this as possible, because this is 40k we are talking about and if it helps make a plot line work without contradicting fluff (both of which are fulfilled) it can happen. Alpha Legion is chosen because they have a penchant for trying to affect things sneakily, in this case plucking a Chapter Master out of the Warp and causing him to eventually turn his chapter to Chaos and so help topple the Imperium. None of the other legions would really attempt something like that.

 

"Well, if my marines kept disappearing through the warp and some of them come back, I would think I'd put up a testing practise to ensure they aren't tainted."

 

And he wasn't. He was faithful to the Emperor; the Alpha Legion hadn't broken him. But that wasn't their goal; their goal was to plant a seed of doubt that would resurrect itself when the the chapter went through it's crisis, and there was nothing the chapter master could do.

 

"Well, I don't think geneseed has the much impact on them. It's the old 'nature vs nurture' debate. "

 

Right. However, the Wraiths, much like myself, don't beleive it's nurture though. This is the universe where everybody is racist, and they think long the lines of "Angron's marines are all just berzerkers, it must be something to do with the geneseed." Both to me and to them it makes complete sense.

 

 

"Well, since your guys are pissing everyone off by eliminating their leaders and acquiring large piles of loot, you'd think that they would be ripe for the taking by one of the larger warbands or even one of the Legions. "

 

Not everyone (but a large amount), and the Wraiths can turn down an offer. They are smart enough not to attack a large splinter of a legion or particularily threatening warband.

 

I also have to point out that the Wraiths are a supplement to an already existing force; most of their jobs aren't in the realm of taking out warlords either. They are there to ensure victory and always provide a much higher percerntage of success. Success often involves crushing the enemy warband and absorbing the survivors into the hirer's own warband.

 

I gotta go. But is this more along the lines you seem to be thinking?

[Apothete]

There is one thing I have to throw in here first - you say I am giving justifications merely because I beleive them. I beleive what I beleive for a reason, including X, Y, and Z - I am merely assuming that you understand what I am drawing my justifications from. I showed you what I was drawing it from with the SW example, not the others. Hence the confusion.

 

Although it seems strange to me that you are argueing against how I conduct my arguments as opposed to the arguments themselves, and in doing so, derailing this thread. Partially - maybe even mostly - my own fault, I will admit.

 

I still don't think this is getting through to you and I'm not entirely certain how worth it continuing this discussion will be, but I'm going to try again.

 

Your reactions seem to be entirely about your personal take on what is being said, rather than on accepting that some of what we say might be correct. Assuming things in a discussion can be dangerous and you've just admitted that you're doing just that, when all that I've been urging you to do all along is to be more explicit and upfront with what you're putting in the article. Don't waste your time justifying and repeating yourself in responses to others in the working thread.

 

Instead, you should be working on the draft and showing us how your writing can reveal, support, and emphasize the important aspects of your theme. When someone shows you a way in which your writing is either weak or incommunicative, you should be striving to improve the article so that it reaches closer to its pinnacle of potential. It doesn't matter if your subsequent remarks explain everything perfectly so long as the writeup itself doesn't.

 

Is that clear enough?

 

Seconded. This is why I am trying to show you my point of view, so that they might see it from my point of view and help make my point of view, from which I am basing my arguments into the IT, so that it might be more plausible and beleivable with a simple rewording. With that being the end result, both of us will have done their job. However, I seem to be lacking.

 

Here's a lesson that I had to pick up the hard way:

 

No matter how many times you repeat something, there is no guarantee that other people are going to agree with you. You can parrot until we're all on our deathbeads, perhaps even set up some kind of autoresponse system to keep posting your assertions long after the rest of us are gone. Even so, that doesn't mean that you're right, or that others will accept your point of view, or even that further explanation will in any way improve the situation.

 

Quite aside from that point, it's not our job to improve your article for you. The writing and presentation are squarely in your court. What we do is to provide feedback and quality control. Assembly and construction are your responsibility.

 

I see this as possible, because this is 40k we are talking about and if it helps make a plot line work without contradicting fluff (both of which are fulfilled) it can happen.

 

No, both of them are not fulfilled. You're contradicting fluff, which Sigismund tried to explain to you.

 

Alpha Legion is chosen because they have a penchant for trying to affect things sneakily, in this case plucking a Chapter Master out of the Warp and causing him to eventually turn his chapter to Chaos and so help topple the Imperium. None of the other legions would really attempt something like that.

 

...except just about any Tzeentchian warband, since he's the patron of change, deceit, lies, and secrets. You know, since you're going to make bald-faced assertions, you might want to think through the ways in which the established fluff interacts with your creations. So far, you're not really supporting your position adequately.

 

And he wasn't. He was faithful to the Emperor; the Alpha Legion hadn't broken him. But that wasn't their goal; their goal was to plant a seed of doubt that would resurrect itself when the the chapter went through it's crisis, and there was nothing the chapter master could do.

 

So instead of Inquisitor ex Machine, we have Warp ex Machina. That's not much of an improvement.

 

Right. However, the Wraiths, much like myself, don't beleive it's nurture though. This is the universe where everybody is racist, and they think long the lines of "Angron's marines are all just berzerkers, it must be something to do with the geneseed." Both to me and to them it makes complete sense.

 

What you're really saying here, since the Wraiths are your creation, is that you find it to be a plausible explantion. Sadly, a number of people have attempted to show you why it isn't and you're discarding the other explanations with no basis other than "because I say so."

 

As previously stated, that's certainly an argument that you can make but it's also one that is going to drive anyone worthwhile away from responding to your thread.

 

I also have to point out that the Wraiths are a supplement to an already existing force; most of their jobs aren't in the realm of taking out warlords either. They are there to ensure victory and always provide a much higher percerntage of success. Success often involves crushing the enemy warband and absorbing the survivors into the hirer's own warband.

 

That paragraph doesn't even make sense.

 

Any mercenaries that are hired to fight are going to "supplement...an already existing force" and "to ensure victory and always provide a much higher percentage of success." If you could win on your own, why would you be hiring mercenaries? Also, this is dabbling well into the MISS waters, since you're basically saying that the Wraiths are so amazingly good that other warbands will requisition their services because they can decide battles all on their own.

 

I gotta go. But is this more along the lines you seem to be thinking?

 

Not really.

 

Please, can we have more reasoned responses and less "it makes sense to me?" We already understand that it makes sense to you because you wrote it.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I thought I was showing you why it made sense to me... I geuss that attempt failed. Let's try this again.

 

"Any mercenaries that are hired to fight are going to "supplement...an already existing force" and "to ensure victory and always provide a much higher percentage of success." If you could win on your own, why would you be hiring mercenaries? Also, this is dabbling well into the MISS waters, since you're basically saying that the Wraiths are so amazingly good that other warbands will requisition their services because they can decide battles all on their own."

 

Think about it. Summonings (which are generally 100 marines strong, a whole company) are powerful enough forces in their own right. They aren't amazingly good, but they can be where you want them to be - whether it's in an enemy stronghold, supporting your men, or coming from an unexpected angle - when you want them to be. Considering the whole "Give me 100 marines, if not 10,000 other men" qoute, this is a force to be reckoned with.

 

Also, most forces can't stand up to a company of Space Marines, but there are quite a few exceptions. Things in the Eye of Terror tend to be more powerful, simply because of the daemonic allies and lack of Codex restraints, and that's why they might be needed to help them there. In the Imperium, most places being attacked tend to be able to calll on reinforcements, so the Wraiths are the counter reinforcements when attacking the Imperium.

 

If they didn't need the Wraiths, why would they waste materials to hire them in the first place?

 

Hehehe... that gave me another idea.... what if a warband hired the Wraiths to become slaughtered, but the Wraiths didn't know, and most of them died?

 

Anyways, I did provide reasons, not just my opinion.

[Telveryon]

I thought I was showing you why it made sense to me... I geuss that attempt failed. Let's try this again.

It seems that Apothete's nice and rather verbose approach has indeed failed. So, let's see if my blunt approach fails as well.

 

The thing that Apothete is trying to say is:

1. That it doesn't matter if something you writes makes sense to you, as it obviously does. What you should do is write your IA in such a manner that everybody will understand what you want to say, not just you. Because if you don't, nobody will bother to read your IA.
   
2. That you should modify your IA to reflect the explanations you've made in the thread proper. Nobody will read through 3 pages of replies just to get the gist behind your chapter, it's just not worth the time.
   

 

I hope the clears it up a bit

[Leonaides]

Summonings (which are generally 100 marines strong, a whole company) are powerful enough forces in their own right. They aren't amazingly good, but they can be where you want them to be - whether it's in an enemy stronghold, supporting your men, or coming from an unexpected angle - when you want them to be. Considering the whole "Give me 100 marines, if not 10,000 other men" qoute, this is a force to be reckoned with.

 

So 100 marines isnt amazingly good, but it is a force to be reckoned with. With 100 marines you can stop a solar system falling to chaos, defeat a Necron incursion, foil a C'tan, take a forgeworld... And thats not amazingly good? The only more potent force than 100 marines is more than 100 marines. Or exterminatus. What do these guys think, who's lives are sold by their commanders to teh highest bidder for mere money that they'll never get any benefit from? I can t honestly see any reason for the rank and file marines to fight for others.

 

If a warband has the money/resources to afford the Wraiths, then the probably have the numbers to not need the Wraiths, and the brains to not pick fights where they might need the Wraiths.

 

TBH, I look in on this thread every few days and feel slightly horrified. I strongly suggest that you stop trying to defend indefensible positions, cut out all the junk you've piled around this IT (raze it to the 'literary' ground if you will) and start again.

 

You have a chapter of marines, who have turned traitor. They raid places for resources.

 

Why did this chapter turn traitor?

 

Why do they want the resources that they are after?

 

Just write that. Tell a story, explaining that. Give your chapter bones that arent deformed and rotten, that you can hang flesh on to make them look like marines. You are writing this to fit into the 40k background story, so it is you who must understand waht others have written, and add your work to theirs carefully, and as seamlessly as possibly. What you've written is like taking the bayeau tapestry, tearing a dirty great hole in it and stapling the cover of a lego castle in and expecting people to say what a wonderful artist you are. I say that in an attempt to get you to open your eyes to what people are telling you, not because I'm wanting to be nasty, but because I really think you need to do so.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Summonings (which are generally 100 marines strong, a whole company) are powerful enough forces in their own right. They aren't amazingly good, but they can be where you want them to be - whether it's in an enemy stronghold, supporting your men, or coming from an unexpected angle - when you want them to be. Considering the whole "Give me 100 marines, if not 10,000 other men" qoute, this is a force to be reckoned with.

 

So 100 marines isnt amazingly good, but it is a force to be reckoned with. With 100 marines you can stop a solar system falling to chaos, defeat a Necron incursion, foil a C'tan, take a forgeworld... And thats not amazingly good? The only more potent force than 100 marines is more than 100 marines. Or exterminatus. What do these guys think, who's lives are sold by their commanders to teh highest bidder for mere money that they'll never get any benefit from? I can t honestly see any reason for the rank and file marines to fight for others.

 

If a warband has the money/resources to afford the Wraiths, then the probably have the numbers to not need the Wraiths, and the brains to not pick fights where they might need the Wraiths.

 

TBH, I look in on this thread every few days and feel slightly horrified. I strongly suggest that you stop trying to defend indefensible positions, cut out all the junk you've piled around this IT (raze it to the 'literary' ground if you will) and start again.

 

You have a chapter of marines, who have turned traitor. They raid places for resources.

 

Why did this chapter turn traitor?

 

Why do they want the resources that they are after?

 

Just write that. Tell a story, explaining that. Give your chapter bones that arent deformed and rotten, that you can hang flesh on to make them look like marines. You are writing this to fit into the 40k background story, so it is you who must understand waht others have written, and add your work to theirs carefully, and as seamlessly as possibly. What you've written is like taking the bayeau tapestry, tearing a dirty great hole in it and stapling the cover of a lego castle in and expecting people to say what a wonderful artist you are. I say that in an attempt to get you to open your eyes to what people are telling you, not because I'm wanting to be nasty, but because I really think you need to do so.

 

 

...

 

I was going to rewrite most of it anyways. You know what, I'm going to just start rewriting it now to end this failure of a... whatever this is.

 

I'll be providing the compiled stuff I've already made, and rewrite a different version - one that will have less controversial 'bones'.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Origins

 

The Wraithes of Darkness were born from the Wraithes of the Emperor. This chapter was founded in the 21st Founding, and soon flourished. They earned a reputation for being elite spys and saboteurs, always at the right place at the right time, experts at hacking into the enemies comm and never letting them know.

 

Time passed. The Wraithes of the Emperor became one of the many chapters out there, with a decent history and the respect of their brothers as an equal brother. But they were not equal, for they were cursed.

 

The Wraithes of the Emperor could teleport. The effects of such journeys were extremely lethal to those without extreme protection or psychic gift. Eventually the Chapter Master himself accidentaly teleported, and was plucked from the Warp by Alpha Legionarres.

 

The Chapter Master was not forced to go through agonizing toture of the body, but rather of the mind. Constantly tempted by Chaos, shown the power he and his chapter could wield... eventually, they allowed him to escape and run back to his chapter.

 

It was there, with the power to do what the Alpha Legionarres wanted, that he faced darkest test of all. His chapter was dying, their greatest heroes being taken off into the Warp. After losing almost 75% of his First Company, he finally begged for whatever power was out there to protect them from, not kill them.

 

Tzeentch answered, and the Chapter Master led the Wriathes of the Emperor into the service of Chaos.

 

Homeworld

 

The Wraithes found OMaM when the populations were almost wiped out, constantly wrring at each other. It seemed that the daemon world grew rich and bountiful when whole wars worth of blood had been spilt, and so the tribes were forced to kill each other to feed their own tribes. It had gotten to the point that only a few small tribes were left, seeking each other out so that the land would grow bountiful again.

 

The Wraithes made sure that they remained apart, and began importing slave to sacrifice on the world's surface. They also started new tribes from some of the more feral slaves captured, so that when the tribes began to become massive once more they would go to war and so provide the Wraithes with more recruits than the few they had picked from here and there.

 

Geneseed

 

The Wraithes of Darkness are of the 21st founding, as it gave the chapter the ability to teleport, but the effects of said teleportation were suitably lethal. They sought refuge from the effects in Chaos, and were mostly succesful.

 

The Wraithes have begun to gather the geneseed of other warbands and chapters. They hope to eventually gather enough geneseed to create whole squads and perhaps even companies of chaos marines made up warriors with the same geneseed.

 

They hope to use the companies of one geneseed to create warriors who are unusually talented and specialized in one area and put them tow work in that area as well as teach their teleporting brethren as the best at their tasks. An example of this is to have those with Raven Guard geneseed to scout out the weak points in the enemie's army and have those with White Scar geneseed raid it.

 

They have most of the eighteen geneseed, but Word Bearer, Dark Angel, and Blood Angel geneseed has become particularily elusive, and all attempts to gain Grey Knight geneseed have met crushing failure.

 

Beliefs

 

The Wraithes venerate all of the Chaos Gods save Nurgle. Nurgle is seen as the Coward God, worshipped only by those who are not skilled enough to keep themselves alive and so begged for mercy - begging is an anethma to true, worthy astartes, who feel no fear. Any who show signs of cowardice are executed.

 

Khorne is venerated only because of the sheer lethality he bestows upon his champions. Those who follow him within the warband are constantly monitered to make sure they do not become mindless berzerkers.

 

Slaanesh is worshipped because of usefullness of her daemons. The ability to bewitch those who lack the strength of will to resist is usefull for culling the weak.

 

Tzeentch is the cunning god, the one who is truly worthy of honor. Tzeentch is not mindless yet he is still incredibly lethal, he is allknowing and allpowerful. He bestows wisdom as well as power upon his champions, and is so seen as the greatest of the gods.

 

Within all of the Summonings, save for the last three, the marines are divided by their chosen worship - that of either Tzeentch or Khorne. Most simply follow Tzeentch, for he is seen as the cunning god. However, some need a more material gain, and feel the need to dominate their foes through martial prowess. These are the ones who follow Khorne.

 

Although their geneseed allows the Wraithes of Darkness to teleport, they stay together. The reason for this is simple - while they stay as part of the Wraithes, they are provided with shelter, sustenance, and materials as well as the opportunity to fight for glory and plunder.

 

 

 

Organization

 

Unusually, the Wraithes are orginized similar to a codex chapter. There is the command group, and Summonings about the strength of a standard company. However, there are Sixteen Summonings, and not all are company strength.

 

The First through Tenth summonings are around a hundred strong. They are usually bargained for when another warband needs an unexpected weapon to use, or a fast moving force that can take the enemy by surprise.

 

The Eleventh and Twelfth Summonings are 250 strong each, and are normally called upon to completely devastate an enemy stronghold or titan. With their superior numbers and astartes skill, they have proven the bane of many heavily defended targets.

 

The last three Summonings are much smaller, usually numbering a mere twenty Astartes. However, these warriors are the elite of the Wraithes and their skills in warfare are unmatched by any other within the warband. They are highly valued and respected amongst the Wraithes, for they are masters of the three, great tenents: stealth, fear, and surprise. As such, it is rare for the warriors of these Summonings to take to the battlefield, their skills far too valuable to risk in minor conflicts, and rarer still for these warriors to fail.

 

The reason for such large numbers is simple - the Wraithes of Darkness only fight when their services are bought or their is to be resources to be gained. Most of their traitorous existence has been spent building up supplies and marines, that being their only goal - aside from earning glory and the favor of the worthy gods.

 

 

 

There is actually two Spectres of Death, one who takes care of the warband and it's administrative duties, and the one who is the cause of most of the victories of the Wraithes.

 

This Spectre is the master of teleportation, shimmering behind enemies battlelines were they can see him, becoming clear in the presence of dying enemies. Armed with a bloody scythe and adorned with twisted icons of once Imperial faith, his sole duty is to completely demoralize the enemy. All such Spectres have been taught by the Night Lords.

 

He has been taught to wear the skull helms of fallen Chaplains, and to stare officers in the eye. To silent and swift, but still advertise his presence. To take his own victims, to make the screams of the dying reach all who oppose the Wraithes, and to cut them short - and to make sure that when and where the bodies are found, their faces are twisted by uncontrolled fear and horror, where all might see them.

 

But the greatest horror waits for when the enemy finally breaks off and run. The Wraithes then go amongst them, stealing the fleeing enemy. Some are sacrificed then, simply to inspire even greater terror amongst the broken horde. Most are sacrificed elsewhere, to the Daemon World, to seal pacts with darker powers, and to Tzeentch himself.

 

 

 

 

Sqauds are led like any other warband. However, one marine is normally appointed as the 'loot keeper' of the squad. This marine's job is to capture enemy weapons and ammunition, as well as scout ahead of the squad whilst part of a raiding party, looking for armouries and the like.

 

These marines direct their brethren to these caches, and teleport the stolen items back to the Wraithe's fleet. For vehicles and natural veins of resources, the commanding squad is notified. Vehicles usually take the whole squad to take back, and are usually regarded as a lesser find to natural resources.

 

Veins of ore and metal, oil wells and the like are highly valuable. The raiding force views these as the highest priorities, and the loot keeper who found it is usually rewarded well.

 

The most trusted loot keepers are tasked with raiding Forge Worlds. These resource rich planets are irresistably targets for the Wraithes, and so are most often dispatched one of the lest three Summonings to raid them.

 

Relations with Chaos forces

 

The only time when the Wraithes take to war is when they are paid for it. Often, this involves targeting other Chaos Warbands.

 

This ranges from assisinating an enemy leader, to engaging in a full out war. It is the former that the Wraithes excel at, and have begun to see themselves as superior simply because they have the capabilities to do so better than most others. Other warbands despise them for their haughty attitude, but this hatred is swallowed simply because they are so effective.

 

That is not the only reason why they have so many enemies. They have earned the enmity of many warbands for crippling their supply sources and completely removing their infrastructure. Their ability has cause the deaths of many rivals as well as allies, and they are universally hated for the damage they have or may cause.

 

 

Notice: some things, like the cults, will be copy and pasted. Those thing s brought up by Sigismund will not be copied in a such a manner.

 

Organization

 

Unusually, the Wraithes are orginized similar to a codex chapter. There is the command group, and Summonings about the strength of a standard company. However, there are Sixteen Summonings, and not all are company strength.

 

The First through Tenth summonings are around a hundred strong. They are usually bargained for when another warband needs an unexpected weapon to use, or a fast moving force that can take the enemy by surprise.

 

The Eleventh and Twelfth Summonings are 250 strong each, and are normally called upon to completely devastate an enemy stronghold or titan. With their superior numbers and astartes skill, they have proven the bane of many heavily defended targets.

 

The last three Summonings are much smaller, usually numbering a mere twenty Astartes. However, these warriors are the elite of the Wraithes and their skills in warfare are unmatched by any other within the warband. They are highly valued and respected amongst the Wraithes, for they are masters of the three, great tenents: stealth, fear, and surprise. As such, it is rare for the warriors of these Summonings to take to the battlefield, their skills far too valuable to risk in minor conflicts, and rarer still for these warriors to fail.

 

The reason for such large numbers is simple - the Wraithes of Darkness only fight when their services are bought or their is to be resources to be gained. Most of their traitorous existence has been spent building up supplies and marines, that being their only goal - aside from earning glory and the favor of the worthy gods.

 

 

 

There is actually two Spectres of Death, one who takes care of the warband and it's administrative duties, and the one who is the cause of most of the victories of the Wraithes.

 

This Spectre is the master of teleportation, shimmering behind enemies battlelines were they can see him, becoming clear in the presence of dying enemies. Armed with a bloody scythe and adorned with twisted icons of once Imperial faith, his sole duty is to completely demoralize the enemy. All such Spectres have been taught by the Night Lords.

 

He has been taught to wear the skull helms of fallen Chaplains, and to stare officers in the eye. To silent and swift, but still advertise his presence. To take his own victims, to make the screams of the dying reach all who oppose the Wraithes, and to cut them short - and to make sure that when and where the bodies are found, their faces are twisted by uncontrolled fear and horror, where all might see them.

 

But the greatest horror waits for when the enemy finally breaks off and run. The Wraithes then go amongst them, stealing the fleeing enemy. Some are sacrificed then, simply to inspire even greater terror amongst the broken horde. Most are sacrificed elsewhere, to the Daemon World, to seal pacts with darker powers, and to Tzeentch himself.

 

 

 

 

Squads are led like any other warband. However, one marine is normally appointed as the 'loot keeper' of the squad. This marine's job is to capture enemy weapons and ammunition, as well as scout ahead of the squad whilst part of a raiding party, looking for armouries and the like.

 

These marines direct their brethren to these caches, and teleport the stolen items back to the Wraithe's fleet. For vehicles and natural veins of resources, the commanding squad is notified. Vehicles usually take the whole squad to take back, and are usually regarded as a lesser find to natural resources.

 

Veins of ore and metal, oil wells and the like are highly valuable. The raiding force views these as the highest priorities, and the loot keeper who found it is usually rewarded well.

 

The most trusted loot keepers are tasked with raiding Forge Worlds. These resource rich planets are irresistably targets for the Wraithes, and so are most often dispatched one of the lest three Summonings to raid them.

 

 

Homeworld

 

The Wraithes found Omarythire when the populations were almost wiped out, constantly wrring at each other. It seemed that the daemon world grew rich and bountiful when whole wars worth of blood had been spilt, and so the tribes were forced to kill each other to feed their own tribes. It had gotten to the point that only a few small tribes were left, seeking each other out so that the land would grow bountiful again.

 

The Wraithes made sure that they remained apart, and began importing slave to sacrifice on the world's surface. They also started new tribes from some of the more feral slaves captured, so that when the tribes began to become massive once more they would go to war and so provide the Wraithes with more recruits than the few they had picked from here and there.

 

Beliefs

 

The Wraithes venerate all of the Chaos Gods save Nurgle. Nurgle is seen as the Coward God, worshipped only by those who are not skilled enough to keep themselves alive and so begged for mercy - begging is an anethma to true, worthy astartes, who feel no fear. Any who show signs of cowardice are executed.

 

Khorne is venerated only because of the sheer lethality he bestows upon his champions. Those who follow him within the warband are constantly monitered to make sure they do not become mindless berzerkers.

 

Slaanesh is worshipped because of usefullness of her daemons. The ability to bewitch those who lack the strength of will to resist is usefull for culling the weak.

 

Tzeentch is the cunning god, the one who is truly worthy of honor. Tzeentch is not mindless yet he is still incredibly lethal, he is allknowing and allpowerful. He bestows wisdom as well as power upon his champions, and is so seen as the greatest of the gods.

 

Within all of the Summonings, save for the last three, the marines are divided by their chosen worship - that of either Tzeentch or Khorne. Most simply follow Tzeentch, for he is seen as the cunning god. However, some need a more material gain, and feel the need to dominate their foes through martial prowess. These are the ones who follow Khorne.

 

Although their geneseed allows the Wraithes of Darkness to teleport, they stay together. The reason for this is simple - while they stay as part of the Wraiths, they are provided with shelter, sustenance, and materials as well as the opportunity to fight for glory and plunder. Their continued existence as part of the warband is bought by the promise of always being considered what you have earned.

 

 

I will expand on that last sentence. Please tell me if you want anything else removed.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Dark Apostle Thirst

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The Wraiths of Darkness hold to the belief that you are only worth what you earn. The Spectres only remain in their position because they are constantly proving their worth there, and squad leaders are constantly challenged to prove their worth.

 

The Wraiths have a system that records the glory that a marine has earned and what rewards have been given to him. This system is extremely harsh, marines having to serve two centuries to earn the right to wield a power weapon, three hundred for a squad to lead, seven hundred for a spot in the last three companies, and the current Spectres had to fight for a millenium to gain their power, and must constantly work to mantain it. This system ensures that only the very best are awarded, and those same marines are instantly recognized by the gifts they have earned.

 

All Wraiths have been taught - and all willingly accept - that this is the best system to reward the truly strong.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Dark Apostle Thirst

[Viray]

The Wraiths of Darkness hold to the belief that you are only worth what you earn. The Spectres only remain in their position because they are constantly proving their worth there, and squad leaders are constantly challenged to prove their worth.

 

The Wraiths have a system that records the glory that a marine has earned and what rewards have been given to him. This system is extremely harsh, marines having to serve two centuries to earn the right to wield a power weapon, three hundred for a squad to lead, seven hundred for a spot in the last three companies, and the current Spectres had to fight for a millenium to gain their power, and must constantly work to mantain it. This system ensures that only the very best are awarded, and those same marines are instantly recognized by the gifts they have earned.

 

All Wraiths have been taught - and all willingly accept - that this is the best system to reward the truly strong.

On a literary note, you may want to change the first two sentences; they come off as rather repetitive in their use of the word "worth."

 

On the background, while I feel the direction you are going in with the whole "survival of the fittest" theme is very fitting for the Wraithes, I suggest you do not have the system so regimented or, at the very least, not so extreme. The life of a Space Marines has always been considered short and brutal, and more so, even, if they are a renegade. Waiting three centuries before earning the right to lead a squad will mean that the Wraithes will be sorely lacking in terms of leadership, nevermind the fact that the last three Companies will likely be near devoid of members. Why not just remove the overly restrictive prerequisites and replace them with something more ambiguous, like how the Dark Angels are inducted into the Deathwing?

[Ace Debonair]

Wow, I missed some intense discussion. :)

I'll say this before I say anything else, kudos for not giving up on the chapter.

I know how much of a pain it is when something you've worked on for months turns out to be flawed, and I've certainly been tempted to give up on chapters before now.

 

Now, to business:

I'm digging the 'survival at all costs' idea.

But, as previously mentioned, the information as it is is rather disjointed and, well, everywhere.

Heck, I'm not even sure which parts are your most recent draft any more. ;)

 

So, here's what I suggest.

Edit your first post, and put the most recent draft of your ideas there for the world to see.

Edit the rest of the posts, and bin all the repeated old drafts and stuff. It'll be easier for us to comment and keep track of the chapter, and you'll have a nice, clean break to work from where you can settle down and really make something of this chapter.

 

The trick after that, of course, is not to post individual paragraphs - use notepad and pile your ideas together there first, so we (and you) can more easily see how your ideas interlink and function together. Your IT will benefit from it, honest.

 

Equally, the softly-softly-never-quite-stating-it approach to teleporting is a darn good idea. I slapped myself for not thinking of it first.

 

Why not just remove the overly restrictive prerequisites and replace them with something more ambiguous, like how the Dark Angels are inducted into the Deathwing?

I like that idea. With a name like 'wraiths', a little bit of mystery in the right places is a nice touch. :)

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The Wraiths of Darkness hold to the belief that you are only worth what you earn. The Spectres only remain in their position because they are constantly proving their worth there, and squad leaders are constantly challenged to prove their worth.

 

The Wraiths have a system that records the glory that a marine has earned and what rewards have been given to him. This system is extremely harsh, marines having to serve two centuries to earn the right to wield a power weapon, three hundred for a squad to lead, seven hundred for a spot in the last three companies, and the current Spectres had to fight for a millenium to gain their power, and must constantly work to mantain it. This system ensures that only the very best are awarded, and those same marines are instantly recognized by the gifts they have earned.

 

All Wraiths have been taught - and all willingly accept - that this is the best system to reward the truly strong.

On a literary note, you may want to change the first two sentences; they come off as rather repetitive in their use of the word "worth."

 

On the background, while I feel the direction you are going in with the whole "survival of the fittest" theme is very fitting for the Wraithes, I suggest you do not have the system so regimented or, at the very least, not so extreme. The life of a Space Marines has always been considered short and brutal, and more so, even, if they are a renegade. Waiting three centuries before earning the right to lead a squad will mean that the Wraithes will be sorely lacking in terms of leadership, nevermind the fact that the last three Companies will likely be near devoid of members. Why not just remove the overly restrictive prerequisites and replace them with something more ambiguous, like how the Dark Angels are inducted into the Deathwing?

 

Worth thing: Noted. I don't think you could give a suggestion for a replacement word?

 

I would really like the ambigious idea, but I don't know what ambiguous means... give me a second...

 

What, do you mean that it shouldn't be entirely clear as to what the requirements are, just say that they are extreme? Maybe give an example?

 

Wow, I missed some intense discussion. -_-

I'll say this before I say anything else, kudos for not giving up on the chapter.

I know how much of a pain it is when something you've worked on for months turns out to be flawed, and I've certainly been tempted to give up on chapters before now.

 

Now, to business:

I'm digging the 'survival at all costs' idea.

But, as previously mentioned, the information as it is is rather disjointed and, well, everywhere.

Heck, I'm not even sure which parts are your most recent draft any more. :)

 

So, here's what I suggest.

Edit your first post, and put the most recent draft of your ideas there for the world to see.

Edit the rest of the posts, and bin all the repeated old drafts and stuff. It'll be easier for us to comment and keep track of the chapter, and you'll have a nice, clean break to work from where you can settle down and really make something of this chapter.

 

The trick after that, of course, is not to post individual paragraphs - use notepad and pile your ideas together there first, so we (and you) can more easily see how your ideas interlink and function together. Your IT will benefit from it, honest.

 

Equally, the softly-softly-never-quite-stating-it approach to teleporting is a darn good idea. I slapped myself for not thinking of it first.

 

Why not just remove the overly restrictive prerequisites and replace them with something more ambiguous, like how the Dark Angels are inducted into the Deathwing?

I like that idea. With a name like 'wraiths', a little bit of mystery in the right places is a nice touch. :D

 

 

I'll try to organize it and put the current (never final, that just wouldn't be accpetable) draft into the first post. Right now all the current draft is the stuff that wasn't doused with holy promethium and PURGED by my good friends here. For the best, it is, but still... there were some good ideas in there. Anyways...

 

Not stateing the teleportation outright, but implying it... Hmm, I suppose so. That will be tricky, but not impossible.

 

I'm not trying to be mysterious though... The Wraiths are raiders and mercenaries who concentrate on their survival and the survival of the fittest. They aren't supremely arrogant (for Chaos Marines), but their respect has to be earned through blood and pain and sweat, all in copious amounts.

 

I'm not quite sure what mystery would do to the warband, but then I geuss we'll have to find out.

[Ace Debonair]

I'll try to organize it and put the current (never final, that just wouldn't be accpetable) draft into the first post. Right now all the current draft is the stuff that wasn't doused with holy promethium and PURGED by my good friends here. For the best, it is, but still... there were some good ideas in there. Anyways...

 

We do enjoy a good purge here in the Liber. And of course we love the smell of burning ideas in the morning. :P

 

Not stateing the teleportation outright, but implying it... Hmm, I suppose so. That will be tricky, but not impossible.

 

I'm not trying to be mysterious though... The Wraiths are raiders and mercenaries who concentrate on their survival and the survival of the fittest. They aren't supremely arrogant (for Chaos Marines), but their respect has to be earned through blood and pain and sweat, all in copious amounts.

 

I'm not quite sure what mystery would do to the warband, but then I geuss we'll have to find out.

 

What I was getting at was using stuff along the lines of:

"The Wraiths attack with swift ferocity, appearing as if from nowhere to punish enemy forces and simply disappearing into the shadows before any retaliation can be organised."

You know, instead of saying something like "They teleport in and out, killing people as they go." :)

 

And of course, keeping the requirements to climb the ranks of the Wraiths as an unknown is a nice touch. I think most folks will get the idea that in a Chaos Warband, only the strongest and toughest climb the ladder to leadership.

 

It's good that mystery isn't the main focus - it's always far better to add little bits of mystery rather than build your chapter around it.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I'll try to organize it and put the current (never final, that just wouldn't be accpetable) draft into the first post. Right now all the current draft is the stuff that wasn't doused with holy promethium and PURGED by my good friends here. For the best, it is, but still... there were some good ideas in there. Anyways...

 

We do enjoy a good purge here in the Liber. And of course we love the smell of burning ideas in the morning. ;)

 

Not stateing the teleportation outright, but implying it... Hmm, I suppose so. That will be tricky, but not impossible.

 

I'm not trying to be mysterious though... The Wraiths are raiders and mercenaries who concentrate on their survival and the survival of the fittest. They aren't supremely arrogant (for Chaos Marines), but their respect has to be earned through blood and pain and sweat, all in copious amounts.

 

I'm not quite sure what mystery would do to the warband, but then I geuss we'll have to find out.

 

What I was getting at was using stuff along the lines of:

"The Wraiths attack with swift ferocity, appearing as if from nowhere to punish enemy forces and simply disappearing into the shadows before any retaliation can be organised."

You know, instead of saying something like "They teleport in and out, killing people as they go." :P

 

And of course, keeping the requirements to climb the ranks of the Wraiths as an unknown is a nice touch. I think most folks will get the idea that in a Chaos Warband, only the strongest and toughest climb the ladder to leadership.

 

It's good that mystery isn't the main focus - it's always far better to add little bits of mystery rather than build your chapter around it.

 

Right.

 

It's strange; I know the fluff pretty well, and I know those things that you can't do in an IA or IT, but all my attempts at IAing or ITing seem to be unsuccessful. This particular observation may be the result of a mind that woke p too early and is slightly worried, but it seems to be true.

 

Alright guys, I'm going to do something I did earlier... excpet it didn't get a chance to really show what results it could generate.

 

Which section do you think needs the most in expanding? We have...

 

Origins - This will probably be the most mysterious part of the IT, therefore the hardest to pull off correctly.

 

Organization - This will need expanding in the future, as well as a rewrite, but for now it should be fine.

 

Homeworld - Could definitely be expanded on, and could be used to subtly build a tone for the IT.

 

Geneseed - I think one of my ideas will have to be recycled into another IT... This section will likely be pretty short.

 

Beliefs - Not sure on this one... It could remain as is and be fine, but could also be expanded very easily.

 

Battlecry - I don't think I'll have one... Stealthy pirates aren't into battlecrys :)

[Ace Debonair]

Homeworld - Could definitely be expanded on, and could be used to subtly build a tone for the IT.

 

This gets my vote. :angry:

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Homeworld - Could definitely be expanded on, and could be used to subtly build a tone for the IT.

 

This gets my vote. :(

 

Homeworld has one vote so far...

[Viray]

What, do you mean that it shouldn't be entirely clear as to what the requirements are, just say that they are extreme? Maybe give an example?

"Interrogator-Chaplains are members of the Inner Circle. The process by which a Chaplain is elevated to the rank of Interrogator is arcane and convoluted. Throughout his tenure as Chaplain, the indiviudal is scrutinised from afar by the Masters, for his duties may at times take him dangerously close to the knowledge of the Fall of Caliban. Should the Chaplain fathom the truth unaided, he will be brought before the Inner Circle and will learn the full truth. If judged unworthy, or simply unready, he may be mind-scrubbed, or worse."

 

Here, the writer gives the readers a sense of what the Chaplain has to go through, even casting a rather believable illusion to marvel at with his seemingly more concrete statements, but, in the end, all of this really tells you but one thing and nothing else more substantial: it is damn hard to be an Interrogator-Chaplain. The readers can easily grasp the idea from just what this piece vaguely asserts and the author avoids weighing himself down with a large amount of information that may prove troublesome to keep track of and/or conflict with later ideas he may have.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

What, do you mean that it shouldn't be entirely clear as to what the requirements are, just say that they are extreme? Maybe give an example?

"Interrogator-Chaplains are members of the Inner Circle. The process by which a Chaplain is elevated to the rank of Interrogator is arcane and convoluted. Throughout his tenure as Chaplain, the indiviudal is scrutinised from afar by the Masters, for his duties may at times take him dangerously close to the knowledge of the Fall of Caliban. Should the Chaplain fathom the truth unaided, he will be brought before the Inner Circle and will learn the full truth. If judged unworthy, or simply unready, he may be mind-scrubbed, or worse."

 

Here, the writer gives the readers a sense of what the Chaplain has to go through, even casting a rather believable illusion to marvel at with his seemingly more concrete statements, but, in the end, all of this really tells you but one thing and nothing else more substantial: it is damn hard to be an Interrogator-Chaplain. The readers can easily grasp the idea from just what this piece vaguely asserts and the author avoids weighing himself down with a large amount of information that may prove troublesome to keep track of and/or conflict with later ideas he may have.

 

Hmm... That's what I thought.

 

Don't suppose you'll vote too?