Wraiths of Darkness

[Heru]

That works. :tu:

The bad news part 1 - It didn't involve color schemes

It's not my fault that you can't envision what the Wraiths look like in your own head. :tu:

 

The bad news part 2 - It doesn't really affect the IT

Well techincally it does, especially if you have an organization section. I mean if your group didn't use humans to crew their ships they'd have to waste around twenty five to a hundred marines per ship as crew, and that is just the smallest interstellar capable craft. They wouldn't even be able to use the larger ships that require anywhere from two hundred to a thousand crew members.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Heru Talon

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

That works. :tu:

The bad news part 1 - It didn't involve color schemes

It's not my fault that you can't envision what the Wraiths look like in your own head. :tu:

 

The bad news part 2 - It doesn't really affect the IT

Well techincally it does, especially if you have an organization section. I mean if your group didn't use humans to crew their ships they'd have to waste around twenty five to a hundred marines per ship as crew, and that is just the smallest interstellar capable craft. They wouldn't even be able to use the larger ships that require anywhere from two hundred to a thousand crew members.

Of course it isn't, Heru. That's why it's bad news.

 

It just seemed to me a bit trivial to add to an IT, but that is merely my opinion.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I'm sorry guys. My thoughts have been on a novel I plan on writing, The Darkest Apostle (nothing to do with 40k, although in futuristic setting) and not on the Wraiths. To make up for that, I've tried to translate an idea I've had for the Wraiths scheme for the IT and our conclusion for the Wraiths slaves.

 

Orginization (slaves)

 

The Wraiths relationship with their slaves is a curious one, in the sense that it is not of brutality or even servitude. The humans who work on the Wraiths missing fleet have never seen a Wraith of Darkness beyond when they were first brought to the ship they serve on. To an outsider, it would seem odd that this would not lead to rebellion. But the new slaves quickly learn not to entertain thoughts of rising against the Wraiths, as those who stop working in mockeries of protests or attempt to incense their fellow slaves against the Wraiths are found piece by piece... limb by limb. The head is always found last, in the throes of absolute agony and terror.

 

A curious relationship.

 

Orginzation (color scheme)

 

The Wraiths have no dedicated color scheme. Each Summoning is decorated differently, but almost all of them have dark, muted colors. The Summonings which are veterans of many wars uponed ruined Imperial worlds generally have dark grey markings, while the Summonings more adept at fighting in jungles - such as the jungles on Catachan - are more often found with a deep green pattern.

 

The only unifying symbol of the Wraiths of Darkness is a jagged, black knife. Even this varies, with the edge of the blade being the jaggedness of the device to it appearing that the blade itself is like a black lightning bolt. When battle is joined, this symbol will be outlined with a thin white line.

 

These ideas are probably stupid, so have at them.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

You can't call them slaves if it isn't servitude; would those slaves willingly serve if offered the choice?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

You can't call them slaves if it isn't servitude; would those slaves willingly serve if offered the choice?

If the other choice is a terrible death...? Yes, yes they would.

[Leonaides]

So its serve me or die? Sound rather like slavery to me...

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

So its serve me or die? Sound rather like slavery to me...

True. In fact, normally I would agree with you. Normally, however, slaves are whipped, beaten, generally treated like crap. The Wraith's slaves/servants don't even see the Wraiths, so can't really be beaten.

 

Alright, they are slaves, but not your normal slaves is what I'm trying to put across. And not because of any compassion on the Wraiths part.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

First page updated with the two paragraphs graded before. Will write something else up... but not sure if you should hold your breath.

[Leonaides]

So how do the slaves know what to labour at if they never see a Wraith? And if you say another slave tells them - then who tells him? At some point, a slave must recieve instructions from a Wraith. This wouldnt even be an issue if you And Romans didnt whip, beat or treat all their slaves like crap... Some of them were highly honoured people. So again, I'd question your concept/definition of slavery.

 

This wouldnt even be an issue for discussion at all, if you hadnt insisted that thre are no Wraiths on their fleet, after insisting that they have no non-marines in their set-up (which is a rather foolish thing to say). As I professional hole-digger, I'd advise you to put the shovel down, and climb out using the nearest ladder before your sides collapse in on you.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

So its serve me or die? Sound rather like slavery to me...

True. In fact, normally I would agree with you. Normally, however, slaves are whipped, beaten, generally treated like crap. The Wraith's slaves/servants don't even see the Wraiths, so can't really be beaten.

 

Alright, they are slaves, but not your normal slaves is what I'm trying to put across. And not because of any compassion on the Wraiths part.

 

There is no normally to slavery, though history may paint a clear picture.

 

Example: Third World child works in sweat shop making sneakers/trainers (depending on your side of the Pond :)) for $1/£1 a day.

 

Kid isn't beaten or whipped, but that is still slavery.

 

 

If they serve because it's service or death, then they still make a choice - as well as there will always be those who choose death over service.

 

You cannot have a Fleet run only by serfs - How coincidental would it be to obtain a ship or fleet Captain to run things in a naval sense? Even if you did, such a person is most often institutionalised enough not to be useful, in fact quite the opposite is probably true.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

When I said there are no Wraiths on the fleet, Leonides, I meant that none ever came to the slaves themselves. Exception being slackers/rabblerousers.

 

Some of it - most of it - is fairly self explanatory. Clean the latrine. Replace power cells to coupling A. Etc. Not that it matters, but the Wraiths don't sit the slave in front of the work station and expect him to work; the slave - leader/organizer? Not sure on that one - decides where they are going, and yes, gives them instructions. There was always someone before the current slaves, all the way back to the original serfs.

 

Although your metaphor was amusing.

 

Juan - the fleet isn't run only be serfs, but it appears that way to the serfs themselves. Almost like an illusion... like the other illusion... The Wraiths tend to have a lot of illusion going, don't they? Hmm, maybe, just maybe, I may have a plan, or at least a goal.

 

As Leonides pointed out, this plan does have holes in it and is definitely incomplete, but I do have a method to my madness. It is about making the Wraiths more than mercenaries, more than just Night Lords wannabes, more than just the standard Chaos that we come to expect. But, in a way, less.

 

You shall see... I have resparked my own interest in them. And all I said was - and is - true.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

As Leonides pointed out, this plan does have holes in it and is definitely incomplete, but I do have a method to my madness. It is about making the Wraiths more than mercenaries, more than just Night Lords wannabes, more than just the standard Chaos that we come to expect. But, in a way, less.

 

Careful. Be very careful of how far you follow this train of thought. It has the preliminary markings of being 'over-awesome' all over it. You've already strayed into suspension-breaking territory more than once so far and a few people have been talking you back from the precipice.

 

The thing is I know you love your Wraiths. It's fair enough. I love all of my DIY chapters as well. The problem comes when you are trying to justify how much you personally love them by making them just as awesome as your passion for them allows.

 

You need to reign yourself in and take a step back. Look at them objectively. Invisible marines on their own ships? No instructions to their serfs? They exist but they don't?

 

Being hard to find and invisible is a great reputation to have with your enemies and allies alike, but at home where you are safe such things don't need to be held up nor is it efficient to do so. I would have them be just as I mentioned above, have this reputation be a part of them so much that it is an almost pathalogical drive to continually foster it among others. On their own ships and bases I'd advise against it. Perhaps they don't talk to any of their slaves bar the slave master.

 

The problem with the slaves is there is too much crossover in tasks that need to be done involving both the slaves and their Astartes masters on some level.

 

Look at the Night Lords. While they are the uncontested masters of fear tactics and hidden warfare, they are still there and able to be killed by a capable enough opponent. They still take slaves (so far as I am aware) and so on and so forth. What they do at home? No clue, and it's probably wise they didn't spell it out either. You could avoid all of these problems by doing the same. Allude to it but don't state it. It ruins the sense of mystique you're trying to build.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Oh, they won't be awesome. Not at all.

 

Granted, they won't be completely dead (that's waiting for Burning Scythes IA) but they most definitely will be hurting. More so than they are now. Not tragicly either.

 

It will all be a grand illusion... But when? Why? How?

 

I'm not making this up as I go along anymore. I really am beginning to form a plan. But patience will be necessary. I know I've asked too much of it already, but even still the brainstorming stage is almost complete, and I will put into words my ideas.

 

How? How? Ho...

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

For years the Wraiths toiled. They fought hard so that they might never fail, never be seen as weak, never showing weakness. Wraiths were circulated during battle, the wounded and the dead being taken and replaced by fresh Wraiths to make it appear as though there were no fallen Wraiths. Traitors across the galaxy could call upon the Wraiths to strike anywhere, and so eventually the Wraiths entered the height of their power, with their numbers high, their reputation untouchable, and across the galaxy their name would strike fear into even the most dedicated servant of the Emperor.

 

But the Dark Gods had other plans for the Wraiths of Darkness.

 

It began with a single marine. Tzeentch swayed him to his service, and from him his squad, and so forth. Soon almost the entirety of the Wraiths began to worship Tzeentch, as the God of Change promised them the galaxy. The other gods saw Tzeentch's new toy and planted their own seeds of corruption. War began to come amongst the Wraiths.

 

To outsiders, very little had changed. Slowly, however, the Wraiths lost their power, with a forgotten corpse here, a late arrival there. They were once cold, effecient killers, and became known as servants of one God or another. They eventually lost their respect completely, and were almost forgotten.

 

Their slide from power began to slowly increase in speed, until the last of the Wraiths to resist the call of the Gods rebbelled and cast away from the rest, and destroyed all but one Strike Cruiser in the process. They could not allow the Wraiths to continue as they were any longer.

 

To the galaxy, the Wraiths had dissapeared. And for a thousand years, they remained as such.

 

Late M41, the Wraiths reappeared, weak, with barely 500 Wraiths of Darkness. The Gods had forgotten them, and the Wraiths began to dream of their old glory.

 

And in the shadows of the Wraiths own fleet, a daemon smiles at it's handiwork, and resumes the form of Spectre once more.

 

This is merely the beginnings, my friends. Ydalir, is this too awesome for you?

[RagingGriffon]

I don't like being strung along in a Liber, but the thing that made me raise my eyebrows was that "ALL" the Chaos Gods were vying for the Wraiths. Not all of the Gods would be interested in a warband. For example, if they were not huge hand to hand fighters then Khorne may not want them.

 

I think I see you are going for a daemon planted in the Wraiths manipulating them.

 

Can you do a Liber instead of narrative clips here and there? It would make it easier to follow.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Condsiering that all the Gods are vying for all the warbands in some way or another...? :(

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Condsiering that all the Gods are vying for all the warbands in some way or another...? :(

 

This is where I think you are going wrong and is something of a fundamental flaw.

 

 

You assume that the Chaos pantheon even cares about the Traitor Legions, let alone the tide of warbands that have arisen since the Heresy.

 

Each original legion or current Warband is only a means to an end for the Chaos Gods - really they don't even want to destroy the Imperium because each would lose its raison detre.

 

Also, when you use the term "vying" you make it sound as if the warband is so important that each God desires it above all others when in reality - just like any other band - they probably care to tell only so about them, such as them being followers.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Which is, of course, completely right.

 

Vying was a bad word - what I meant was better described through what Juan said.

 

I don't dare think that the Gods care about the Wraiths more than one would care for a tool, a tool to use in the Great Game.

[RagingGriffon]

I have to go with CJJ on this. I doubt all Four of the Ruinous Powers would be interested in the Wraiths. They would have to be immensely powerful for all of them to give some of their power to them. I can only think of two Legions that have the support of the all four gods: Black Legion (All hail the Warmaster!) and the Word Bearers. I feel like you are stretching it when you put your Wraiths into that elite echelon. I like how you mentioned one Marine fell to Tzeentch, then a squad, etc. However, I doubt then the other three gods would pile on.

 

You can go down that road if you want, but I guess with snippets here and there I am just not tracking on it.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Thing is, the gods followers vye for their attention, not the other way around.

 

Remember the entire reason for falling to chaos is a lust for power in one form or other. It cannot possibly work the other way around. Your marines must have an agenda that they are following and therefore a reason to turn to chaos for support.

 

The chaos gods only seek out followers so far as they fuel their own power. It's a numbers game, not quality for the most part. Yes there are certain champions and favoured warbands for each of the four gods but they are favoured because of their constant work and devotion to their masters cause rather than their own. Their own reasons for falling or whatever agendas they had originally have been forgotten and they have given themselves over to their gods.

 

Look at the Red Corsairs, there are no chaos powers vying for their attention, yes they worship chaos but the Red Corsairs have their own agenda and are in no way favoured for it. Neither are most of the Black Legion really, only Abaddon holds the gods favour and his Black Crusades do not solely involve the Black Legion.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Yes... and no.

 

The gods want followers. If that wasn't true, why would any Loyalist turn? They're so filled with dogma and this Emperor nonsense that they hate Chaos beyond belief; Chaos sways people on it's own will.

 

Most of the followers of Chaos came willingly, or were swayed by a Daemon - Lord of Change or perhaps a daemon prince, maybe some in betweens. None were swayed by the Gods themselves - Save Horus, and his like have not been seen fo 10k years.

 

I'm sorry, I poorly conveyed what I meant and have been lacking in my work for these guys. But I'll see what I can do over the next couple of days.

[Shinzaren]

I'm neither interested, nor am I willing to read through 8 pages to find your IA. Is the first post the most up to date one? I would like to read and comment, but trolling through 8 pages of responses to find what I am looking for does not appeal to me. If it is the most recent, I will read it when I wake up and I will critique it as best I can. Based on the name, and the amount of responses, it has to at least be interesting. So, is the first post completely up to date?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Yes... and no.

 

The gods want followers. If that wasn't true, why would any Loyalist turn? They're so filled with dogma and this Emperor nonsense that they hate Chaos beyond belief; Chaos sways people on it's own will.

 

Most of the followers of Chaos came willingly, or were swayed by a Daemon - Lord of Change or perhaps a daemon prince, maybe some in betweens. None were swayed by the Gods themselves - Save Horus, and his like have not been seen fo 10k years.

 

Actually the Gods need, rather than want, followers; remember that for the most part the Gods themseles have no corporeal form, their will is enacted by servants whether they be Traitor Legions or Daemons.

 

Chaos doesn't use its own will to sway, it sways through the lack of, or flaws of, the will of the target.

 

If there is nothing to tempt someone with, then why would they turn?

 

Ever read the SW book Dark Rendevousz? In it Dooku attempts to turn Yoda, offering him control of armies, wealth and slaves. Yoda comments that he can already have these, so why should he turn?

 

It's the same, if an Astartes doesn't want for power, glory or whatever then what have the Gods themselves got to tempt him with?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Juan - What I was trying to say from another point of view.

 

Was gone for the weekend, and will be starting an addition as soon as I look up some new language starting stuffs for some buddies.

 

Thirst

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I don't actually see how what you said actually disagreed with my statement, frankly.