Frag Cannon & CCW vs Blood Talons

[Beast_of_Amareo]

Till last wednesday I was thinking that the DCCW+Frag Cannon was the ultimate killer combo for a Furioso. Great anti-infantry capabilities combined with min. 3 high STR attacks to crack those hard-nuts. I mean in paper 2 STR 6, Rending templates are something that you cannot resist but fall in love with. But my recent experience put me in some thoughts. After eliminating 8 Ork Boyz with a simple volley of his Frag Cannon, my Furioso was unable to stick in CC and finish the rest of the mob. The reason was that it killed so many models that my opponent was in the position to exploit it in order to let me out of assault range. Next round, Deff Koptas come from reserves and the Dread explodes. But this is a different story.

 

So, what you think? I am currently thinking of running a list with a DC Dreadnought w/Blood Talons that will Drop Pod in the thick of fighting, but how about my Furioso? Should I continue running my Frag+DCCW combo or should I change to a different armament profile? If yes, what would you suggest? And another question, is Librarian Furioso worth its points and my time in converting one?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The librarian dread is very expensive. I have found you need at least two dreads to make it work.

 

0b :P

[shatter]

I still like the fragC.

DN libbies can have them too.

Make a magnetized FW arm and a clip on hood. =)

 

For your example, it was a mixture of luck and stuff. *shrug*

If it'd been a libby DN with a magna grapple, he could have forgone one shooting weapon and still used a psychic shooting power. ie. fragC and Shackle/FoD. but this makes him less killy and more support... unless the orcs were not fearless and ran off the table. In which case, it's quite killy indeed. If they were fearless, shackle might have worked. The DeffK might have still killed it, but you might have placed him differently to start with thereby being out of (it's) range.

 

Swings and roundabouts and you get what you pay for.

[Beast_of_Amareo]

The librarian dread is very expensive. I have found you need at least two dreads to make it work.

 

0b :P

 

In fact I run a 2 Dreadnoughts list. But do you mind elaborate?

[Brother_Dan'l]

I'm very fond of the Frag Cannon + DCCW combo if I'm not using straight up Blood Fists. Mainly because the Blood Talons are too damned random and just short of worthless if the target has an AV. Not that I haven't built a pair and enjoyed using them, just that I've had some incredibly varied results game to game. And it only takes one Weapon Destroyed to leave you with a 150 point Terminator.

[Redo]

I'm very fond of the Frag Cannon + DCCW combo if I'm not using straight up Blood Fists. Mainly because the Blood Talons are too damned random and just short of worthless if the target has an AV. Not that I haven't built a pair and enjoyed using them, just that I've had some incredibly varied results game to game. And it only takes one Weapon Destroyed to leave you with a 150 point Terminator.

 

You have a point when you say that it take jsut one weapon destroyed result to take the edge of the Blood Talons...but with AV13 a Furioso Dread can be quite resilient and when advancing behind Raiders or even Rhino based vehicles that cover save can certainly take the sting out of a few blows.

 

Anyway with the exception of other Dreads, Raiders the talons are amazing, will destroy AV10 consistenly on the charge and in combat they are fantastic. Furthermore a normal dread can receive a weapon destroyed result too! Most people eliminate the CCW afterthat what is the dread? A 140+ points S6 hit. mmm not too amazing either, especially when it is in close combat.

[Looted Monolith]

is this a DC dreadnought? or a regular furioso?

if it is regular go blood claws as you are able to chose your target instead of submitting to the rage ability where your only option may be a vehicle, in your example with the orks the BC's would have killed far more than 8 and you would have been safely in CC when the deffkoptas arrived.

Claws are still magnificent if you run them on a DC dread, and vehicles are not that scary as you have a built in melta gun before you assault with 4-5 str 7 attacks depending on if ya lost one yet. I also think fleet and FC are better than 13 front armor and +1WS but it is up 2 you.

 

Whomever said a librarian dread must forgo a shooting weapon to cast a shooting attack, this is wrong a dread may fire all weapons infantry must give up shooting their gun as each is only allowed to make one shooting attack.

 

Al tho i drop my dreads out of storm birds rather than drop pods, this allows them to safely arrive at their target and then i put them as close as possible to the enemy. then they may fleet (if DC) and or just charge.

 

Your tactics may favor the frag cannon where my mine would never. Good Luck

[shatter]

Psychic shooting attacks page 50.

If he can shoot more than one weapon, he can forgo one and use one psychic shooting attack.

 

"However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack."

[Redo]

is this a DC dreadnought? or a regular furioso?

if it is regular go blood claws as you are able to chose your target instead of submitting to the rage ability where your only option may be a vehicle, in your example with the orks the BC's would have killed far more than 8 and you would have been safely in CC when the deffkoptas arrived.

Claws are still magnificent if you run them on a DC dread, and vehicles are not that scary as you have a built in melta gun before you assault with 4-5 str 7 attacks depending on if ya lost one yet. I also think fleet and FC are better than 13 front armor and +1WS but it is up 2 you.

 

Whomever said a librarian dread must forgo a shooting weapon to cast a shooting attack, this is wrong a dread may fire all weapons infantry must give up shooting their gun as each is only allowed to make one shooting attack.

 

Al tho i drop my dreads out of storm birds rather than drop pods, this allows them to safely arrive at their target and then i put them as close as possible to the enemy. then they may fleet (if DC) and or just charge.

 

Your tactics may favor the frag cannon where my mine would never. Good Luck

 

Just remember that the regular Furioso Dread is a 'friendly unit' and if a Sang. Priest is 6" nearby it will also have Furious Charge. TO be fair fleet is a tough skill to replace and a regualr Furioso dread must have extra armour. Yet the rage thing kinds bugs me.

[Morticon]

For a regular furioso- there is a Frater who is running him in a pod, with magnagrapple, and heavy flamer and Frag cannon.

 

This means you stick down 3 templates and an S8 shot when you land. Thats pretty sick right there.

 

However, if your opponents are orks, etc- you may want to go for the more reliable - that being the talons. Talons will make light work of Ork hordes. And will be better than your frag cannon in the long run.

 

Sadly its another dropping of the ball i believe, with the Talons being almost too good to warrant any other ocnfiguration.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I do the podded grappled, HF Frag Cannon as well.

It's awesome.

[Looted Monolith]

Shatter you are right :huh:

 

Umm point is we have the best load out for a dread (until next codex release :rolleyes: )

so ya cant realy go wrong as long as you play smart.

[Whitefireinferno]

The thing is I really cannot another codex getting a dred thats BETTER than ours in close combat ever since ours have aways been the best and always will be.

[Brother_Dan'l]

What is the preferred Blood Fist weapon with the Frag Cannons? Do most folks use flamer or melta? And does anyone not put the Magna Grapple on with the Frag?

 

I tried the Storm Bolter for a while to keep the PV down and because it was the only arm I had left when I built my first FC Furioso. But doubt I'd ever go back to it now that I've tried it with the Melta Gun. With 2x S6R templates and 2x S8 I've been happy as a clam.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Flamer. Bring the pain to those squads.

[Angelus Mortifer]

Depends on your list and the opponent. Nids and Orks, plus good AT in your list vs IG, and it should really be the Flamer (+ Grapple for an extra shot). 3 Templates on a "de-bussed" squad or horde unit is just priceless. Melta if you're short on points or definitely need the extra AT option. I have a 1250pts each doubles tourney next week and I'm running the Melta version just because the points threshold is too low to take everything I'd like. Tested the Grapple with this and I'm swapping it for Extra Armour, as a first strike podding Dread ideally needs it if it can survive the 1st turn counter-punch.

 

Did a quick conversion for the FC but my pics are a bit lame. Will post better ones when I get the chance.

[BrotherMoses]

Does the frag cannon arm still get an underslung hvy flamer or melta?

[Looted Monolith]

Nope, you must replace melee arm of your chosing and built in weapon for Frag cannon

[JamesI]

Sadly its another dropping of the ball i believe, with the Talons being almost too good to warrant any other ocnfiguration.

I have to agree here. I can't imagine using a Frag cannon for the simple reason that means I have no Blood Talons!

[Beast_of_Amareo]

Thanks a lot all of you guys for the hints. In fact, I run a list with two Dreads, one DC droppoding with Blood Talons and a second foot slogging Furioso. I now think that I will give yet another try to the Frag Cannon using a HF also this time. But do you really think that the Furioso also needs a pod? I have exceeded my budget for my army quite some time ago and I would prefer to avoid buying yet another pod.

 

How about a flying Libby dread with Frag cannon? Or is this not a good armament for a libby Dread?

[Isryion]

Sadly its another dropping of the ball i believe, with the Talons being almost too good to warrant any other configuration.

 

Yep. It's the reason I've argued they should not be free. Increasing the cost would make the choice less obvious.

[Isryion]

Thanks a lot all of you guys for the hints. In fact, I run a list with two Dreads, one DC droppoding with Blood Talons and a second foot slogging Furioso. I now think that I will give yet another try to the Frag Cannon using a HF also this time. But do you really think that the Furioso also needs a pod? I have exceeded my budget for my army quite some time ago and I would prefer to avoid buying yet another pod.

 

How about a flying Libby dread with Frag cannon? Or is this not a good armament for a libby Dread?

 

 

The pod guarantees that you get to shoot, and in a location/target of your choosing. Regardless of how you kit out your dread, they still go down to one shot. Obviously, I'm not trying to encourage you to go over your budget, but I don't think you'll find the dread mobile enough to be effective otherwise.

 

As to the second question, there's some debate about whether or not the libby can actually take the upgrades.

[Quantra]

I've found talons to be less than reliable. Only once has it done the magic thing of continually generating more attacks, otherwise I get maybe 1 or 2 more attacks that I normally miss with. I have a conversion lined up for the frag cannon and look forward to trying it out.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

I think the best all round option is melta gun, heavy flamer, magna grapple, Blood talons. You get 2 strength 8 hits (one melta) to ruin vehicles and weaken MCs, a heavy flamer to ruin gaunts/orks/GEQs , and Blood Talons to nail MEQs/TEQ/ICs/MCs. Nothing is safe.

 

One question I have is if you shoot the magna grapple at a vehicle 12" away, and drag it so it's only 4" away, if you subsequently melta it do you get the extra d6? I'm assuming not as all shooting is simultaneous right?

 

Even so, if you popped it with the melta, could you then flame the contents before charging? Again I'm assuming not, as all shooting is simultaneous so you'd have to flame the vehicle.

[Isryion]

I've found talons to be less than reliable. Only once has it done the magic thing of continually generating more attacks, otherwise I get maybe 1 or 2 more attacks that I normally miss with. I have a conversion lined up for the frag cannon and look forward to trying it out.

 

 

Really? This is really bad luck. Of the 3-4 combats I've been in with my DC dread, it has never failed to obliterate the enemy (which is actually lucky as well). You've been re-rolling wounds, right? Normally, you should net 7-8 wounds, provided you are WS+1 on your opponent and aren't facing invulnerable saves. Each attack has something like a 63-64% of being successful, meaning you should be getting more than half of your attacks to wound each time, but the initial roll of to hit is the most important.