The Marines Exemplar

[Lord Tybault]

The current codex says the order of advancement is Scout --> Devestator --> Assault --> Tactical--> Veteran. The answer is probably yes.

Right, there was something. Ah, too many little details I need to remember about 40K... :)

 

 

The veterans of a Great Company are called "Wolf Guard". They can form a single squad or lead a squad of less experienced Wolves into battle. That's the condensed version.

Ah, I see. Well, nothing of the sort implied by my idea. "Just" regular squad members and not even squad leaders - that honor is reserved for the other members of the squad NOT being veterans.

A veteran sergeant, though, would be able to choose if he wants to join 1st or if he instead remains with his company (although there technically is no such thing as a "regular" sergeant anymore according to the game rules).

[Argon]

The current codex says the order of advancement is Scout --> Devestator --> Assault --> Tactical--> Veteran. The answer is probably yes.

Right, there was something. Ah, too many little details I need to remember about 40K...

 

You don't have to remember all of them. That way lies madness.

 

 

I think we've basically got organization down. Anything else will be details, and obviously we've got slightly different ideas there. I say we move on to Combat Doctrine now.

[Lord Tybault]

I think we've basically got organization down. Anything else will be details, and obviously we've got slightly different ideas there. I say we move on to Combat Doctrine now.

I also expect our models to look different, but that's not a problem as long as we can agree what will be in the final IA.

 

Anyway, Combat Doctrine... Currently I have no good ideas for what could be an individual doctrine that's not tied directly to the organizational aspects. I usually have a chaplain as HQ choice rather than a regular captain so that could be a part of the doctrine - that the captains are more strategic planners and the chaplains and librarians take the fight to the enemy.

[Argon]

I think we've basically got organization down. Anything else will be details, and obviously we've got slightly different ideas there. I say we move on to Combat Doctrine now.

I also expect our models to look different, but that's not a problem as long as we can agree what will be in the final IA.

 

Anyway, Combat Doctrine... Currently I have no good ideas for what could be an individual doctrine that's not tied directly to the organizational aspects. I usually have a chaplain as HQ choice rather than a regular captain so that could be a part of the doctrine - that the captains are more strategic planners and the chaplains and librarians take the fight to the enemy.

 

We've got their love of energy weapons, so that's something. I think centuries of guarding the Eye would mean they've fought almost everyone there is to fight. Thus, they would be flexible with their tactics and be very good at bringing the right equipment or specialists to the fight.

 

Traditionally, Captains and Librarians are the planners, but all three take the fight to the enemy. They're Space Marines, after all.

[Lord Tybault]

We've got their love of energy weapons, so that's something. I think centuries of guarding the Eye would mean they've fought almost everyone there is to fight. Thus, they would be flexible with their tactics and be very good at bringing the right equipment or specialists to the fight.

It's a start but nothing too special. Apart from that, access to energy weapons is pretty limited due to their rarity - how would we explain having every battlebrother running around with an energy knife? :P Or does that include plasma and melta weapons as well?

 

Anyway, the way I see it, most chapters probably have fought against about every enemy the 40K universe has to offer (at least all the notable ones).

And tactical flexibility is what I though to be one of THE cornerstones of Astartes organisational doctrine. That's why I'm having difficulties thinking of something that'll make them unique in their own way.

 

Traditionally, Captains and Librarians are the planners, but all three take the fight to the enemy. They're Space Marines, after all.

Correct. Everyone can do everything but I wnated to stress the point that it's foremost the chaplain that's leading battlegroups and not a captain and that librarians are seen more often in the thick of the fighting as well - which would make sense given the fact that we decided they were integral parts of each company. The captain would establish an HQ and keep in contact with subordinated elements and coordinate the actiob via commfeed, getting constant updates from the squads and pre-deployed scout squads rather than himself being the first to enter into combat. Only in dire circumstances would he intervene.

It always felt odd to have Astartes captains in the stories behave like ordinary battlebrothers and always wade into the fight with reckless abandon where I thought they should rather be exemplary strategists, self restraining and wise enough to see the miision through before gainng personal glory (which they certainly have accumulated a lot of).

[WingsOfTheFalcon]

From the beliefs so far, they do sound like a pre-heresy Word Bearers. (Litanies on armour, very strong religious belief.) I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, in fact I think it could work as a plot tool, you could have some kind of ongoing grudge with the Word Bearers for their heretical pollution of 'The Word'.

 

Good start though, keep it up! :tu:

[Argon]

We've got their love of energy weapons, so that's something. I think centuries of guarding the Eye would mean they've fought almost everyone there is to fight. Thus, they would be flexible with their tactics and be very good at bringing the right equipment or specialists to the fight.

It's a start but nothing too special. Apart from that, access to energy weapons is pretty limited due to their rarity - how would we explain having every battlebrother running around with an energy knife? :P Or does that include plasma and melta weapons as well?

 

From the first post:

-Prefer energy weapons (like plasma guns and lascannons)

 

From the previous thread in Index Astartes:

The "energy weapons" part comes from the fact that there's already two official pyrophile chapters, but not one that prefers using plasma weapons. After all, when you're guarding the EoT, you'll be fighting the legions of Chaos Eternal, and we both know nothing drops a man in power armour quite like a plasma gun.

 

It wouldn't mean that every battle-brother has a power knife; it simply means they'd take one if they had a choice. :P

 

 

Anyway, the way I see it, most chapters probably have fought against about every enemy the 40K universe has to offer (at least all the notable ones).

And tactical flexibility is what I though to be one of THE cornerstones of Astartes organisational doctrine. That's why I'm having difficulties thinking of something that'll make them unique in their own way.

 

There's a number of chapters in the Librarium that follow codex combat doctrine, so it's not like it's a huge sin. "Unique in their own way" doesn't have to mean "unique in every way".

 

Also, I think the Exemplars would spend most of their time fighting (going from most common to least) Orks, Chaos, minor xenos, and Eldar. There's a chance they've fought Tyranids, but no chance at all any of them outside those brothers in the Deathwatch have fought Tau.

 

Traditionally, Captains and Librarians are the planners, but all three take the fight to the enemy. They're Space Marines, after all.

Correct. Everyone can do everything but I wnated to stress the point that it's foremost the chaplain that's leading battlegroups and not a captain and that librarians are seen more often in the thick of the fighting as well - which would make sense given the fact that we decided they were integral parts of each company. The captain would establish an HQ and keep in contact with subordinated elements and coordinate the action via commfeed, getting constant updates from the squads and pre-deployed scout squads rather than himself being the first to enter into combat. Only in dire circumstances would he intervene.

It always felt odd to have Astartes captains in the stories behave like ordinary battlebrothers and always wade into the fight with reckless abandon where I thought they should rather be exemplary strategists, self restraining and wise enough to see the mission through before gainng personal glory (which they certainly have accumulated a lot of).

 

Interesting, and some good points. What if they went in to the most vital or dangerous missions? If you want something done, it's usually best to do it yourself.

 

 

 

From the beliefs so far, they do sound like a pre-heresy Word Bearers. (Litanies on armour, very strong religious belief.) I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, in fact I think it could work as a plot tool, you could have some kind of ongoing grudge with the Word Bearers for their heretical pollution of 'The Word'.

 

Good start though, keep it up!

 

Yeah, that actually occured to me. From the first post:

 

Greater piety than most chapters stemming from constant battles against Chaos. This isn't to say that they're like the Black Templars or Imperial Word Bearers, just that they might spend a slightly greater amount of time in prayer and things like that

(Italics mine)

 

At the very least, my Exemplars will fight Word Bearers a few times, as I have a friend who wants to play and I'm also working on a Word Bearers army.

[Lord Tybault]

From the first post: -Prefer energy weapons (like plasma guns and lascannons)

Ah, already forgetting stuff. Right you are. Still, I don't like lascannons in Tactical Squads but I like the 2 Plasma Cannon/2 Lascannon Devastator Squad variant. Has been a very effective choice for me. A plasmagun is standard issue for my tacticals, though.

 

 

It wouldn't mean that every battle-brother has a power knife; it simply means they'd take one if they had a choice. :ermm:

You would, too - play the 'Deathwatch' RPG a little and you'll CRAVE an energy weapon more than anything else so you can parry properly. Either way every Astartes would get an energy weapon if possible. Question is if we want to make them more common than they are.

 

 

There's a number of chapters in the Librarium that follow codex combat doctrine, so it's not like it's a huge sin. "Unique in their own way" doesn't have to mean "unique in every way".

Hm... having them follow standard Codex doctrine will most likely have them deviate from the norm anyway. Most chapters apparently are NOT following standard doctrine. :mellow:

 

 

Also, I think the Exemplars would spend most of their time fighting (going from most common to least) Orks, Chaos, minor xenos, and Eldar. There's a chance they've fought Tyranids, but no chance at all any of them outside those brothers in the Deathwatch have fought Tau.

Agreed. But who cares for those little blue-grey buggers in the first place?

 

 

Interesting, and some good points. What if they went in to the most vital or dangerous missions? If you want something done, it's usually best to do it yourself.

Yes, that's one way to put it. A captain should be something quite special and above all NOT BE REQUIRED to do all the fighting himself. Sure, hes hould inspire his men, but from a good combat leader I not only expect exceptional combat prowess (which an Astartes captain surely has) but also superior tactial and strategicl awareness - someone has to keep an eye on the greater scheme of things. Depending on circumstances he'll get his hands dirty as well of course - a nice example of how I picture such a captain would be LTC Moore in 'We were Soldiers'.

They'd certainly intervene when the line was breached, a challenge for a duel issued or other things that required direct action.

 

 

From the beliefs so far, they do sound like a pre-heresy Word Bearers. (Litanies on armour, very strong religious belief.) I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, in fact I think it could work as a plot tool, you could have some kind of ongoing grudge with the Word Bearers for their heretical pollution of 'The Word'.

Now THAT is a nice idea. We should use this suggestion. Thanks!

 

 

 

At the very least, my Exemplars will fight Word Bearers a few times, as I have a friend who wants to play and I'm also working on a Word Bearers army.

Well, mine have a grudge with the (yet) unnamed Slaanesh Nose cult of my wife. They also had a few run-ins with the demon Zarakynel, too, but w can have them bear more than one grudge, right?

[Argon]

It wouldn't mean that every battle-brother has a power knife; it simply means they'd take one if they had a choice. :blush:

You would, too - play the 'Deathwatch' RPG a little and you'll CRAVE an energy weapon more than anything else so you can parry properly. Either way every Astartes would get an energy weapon if possible. Question is if we want to make them more common than they are.

 

Sure, why not? We're doing something important and we sort of need them.

 

 

 

Also, I think the Exemplars would spend most of their time fighting (going from most common to least) Orks, Chaos, minor xenos, and Eldar. There's a chance they've fought Tyranids, but no chance at all any of them outside those brothers in the Deathwatch have fought Tau.

Agreed. But who cares for those little blue-grey buggers in the first place?

 

Heretics and xenos-lovers. That's who.

 

Interesting, and some good points. What if they went in to the most vital or dangerous missions? If you want something done, it's usually best to do it yourself.

Yes, that's one way to put it. A captain should be something quite special and above all NOT BE REQUIRED to do all the fighting himself. Sure, hes hould inspire his men, but from a good combat leader I not only expect exceptional combat prowess (which an Astartes captain surely has) but also superior tactial and strategicl awareness - someone has to keep an eye on the greater scheme of things. Depending on circumstances he'll get his hands dirty as well of course - a nice example of how I picture such a captain would be LTC Moore in 'We were Soldiers'.

They'd certainly intervene when the line was breached, a challenge for a duel issued or other things that required direct action.

 

I guess I'll have to watch another movie :woot: .

 

Exactly, though. He should get his hands dirty only when it's required.

 

From the beliefs so far, they do sound like a pre-heresy Word Bearers. (Litanies on armour, very strong religious belief.) I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, in fact I think it could work as a plot tool, you could have some kind of ongoing grudge with the Word Bearers for their heretical pollution of 'The Word'.

Now THAT is a nice idea. We should use this suggestion. Thanks!

 

It's...interesting. However, speaking as a Word Bearers fan, the Word of Lorgar is the word of Chaos. It is by its very nature the opposite of the Imperial Creed. Still, it would be pretty cool and I don't see how it

 

At the very least, my Exemplars will fight Word Bearers a few times, as I have a friend who wants to play and I'm also working on a Word Bearers army.

Well, mine have a grudge with the (yet) unnamed Slaanesh Nose cult of my wife. They also had a few run-ins with the demon Zarakynel, too, but w can have them bear more than one grudge, right?

 

A nose cult? Emperor preserve us...... :sweat: :blink:

 

To each his own, I guess. Have as many grudges as you wish.

[Lord Tybault]

It's...interesting. However, speaking as a Word Bearers fan, the Word of Lorgar is the word of Chaos. It is by its very nature the opposite of the Imperial Creed. Still, it would be pretty cool and I don't see how it (...)

For one, there's missing the rest of the sentence. ^_^ For two, the "Word of Lorgar" is the total perversion of the Imperial Creed and as such a thing to be abhorred. If the Exempalrs are a very religious and devout chapter it'd be only logical they'd take a special interest in extinguishing false prophecies and heresies alike.

 

 

A nose cult? Emperor preserve us...... :wallbash: ;)

That happens when a language uses two words with an entirely different meaning which are ortographically very imilar - I was of course referring to a Slaanesh NOISE Cult. My wife's playing A Noise AMrine Cult Army - ever heard of the Pink Plush Land Raider by chance?

 

 

To each his own, I guess. Have as many grudges as you wish.

Well, this one would rather be a "personal" grudge of the 5th Company for... well, personal reasons. I still like the Word Bearers idea, though.

[Argon]

It's...interesting. However, speaking as a Word Bearers fan, the Word of Lorgar is the word of Chaos. It is by its very nature the opposite of the Imperial Creed. Still, it would be pretty cool and I don't see how it (...)

For one, there's missing the rest of the sentence. :P For two, the "Word of Lorgar" is the total perversion of the Imperial Creed and as such a thing to be abhorred. If the Exempalrs are a very religious and devout chapter it'd be only logical they'd take a special interest in extinguishing false prophecies and heresies alike.

 

True. It wouldn't hurt, either. I'm okay with it.

 

 

A nose cult? Emperor preserve us...... :lol: :)

That happens when a language uses two words with an entirely different meaning which are ortographically very imilar - I was of course referring to a Slaanesh NOISE Cult. My wife's playing A Noise AMrine Cult Army - ever heard of the Pink Plush Land Raider by chance?

 

I was joking. I knew what you meant. :P

 

Also, I have not.

 

To each his own, I guess. Have as many grudges as you wish.

Well, this one would rather be a "personal" grudge of the 5th Company for... well, personal reasons. I still like the Word Bearers idea, though.

 

The bolded text is relevant.

[Lord Tybault]

Yeah, well, um, anyway... How do we continue from here? Gather more ideas for Combat Doctrine? Move on to another part? I'm a bit running out of ideas at the moment, but I'm pretty occupied with RL stuff right now. What will we most likely need for the Iron Gauntlet - is it useful to already focus on it?

[Argon]

Yeah, well, um, anyway... How do we continue from here? Gather more ideas for Combat Doctrine? Move on to another part? I'm a bit running out of ideas at the moment, but I'm pretty occupied with RL stuff right now. What will we most likely need for the Iron Gauntlet - is it useful to already focus on it?

 

All we have left is Origins. I think we're good to go on Combat Doctrine.

 

What exactly would we be focusing on?

[Lord Tybault]

All we have left is Origins. I think we're good to go on Combat Doctrine.

Understood. Should I think of something I'll let you know, but there certainly is room to add more stuff as we go along.

 

 

What exactly would we be focusing on?

No idea - it's my first Iron Gauntlet. (I admit I haven't been to this forum all that often and don't read every thread or section carefully.) If the usual procedure is to wait until an actual challenge is issued, we can indeed tackle Origins next and then begin to do a complete first draft.

[Argon]

All we have left is Origins. I think we're good to go on Combat Doctrine.

Understood. Should I think of something I'll let you know, but there certainly is room to add more stuff as we go along.

 

All we have so far is that they're "One of the original members of the Astartes Praeses along with the White Consuls and Subjugators."

 

What exactly would we be focusing on?

No idea - it's my first Iron Gauntlet. (I admit I haven't been to this forum all that often and don't read every thread or section carefully.) If the usual procedure is to wait until an actual challenge is issued, we can indeed tackle Origins next and then begin to do a complete first draft.

 

The one thing I learned from the previous Iron Gauntlet is that it's never too early to post your IA. Also, don't take C&C personally, especially if it's from Apothete.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The one thing I learned from the previous Iron Gauntlet is that it's never too early to post your IA. Also, don't take C&C personally, especially if it's from Apothete.

 

I haven't commented beacuse I didn't want to break the flow of your thoughts, but i will chime in here.

 

Getting even the most basic draft up will help; you'd be surprised at the breadth of knowledge that some Frater possess, even the esoteric can help and its much easier in the long run to have an IA drafted so you can see how all the peices jive together.

 

On the front of critique; None of the critique here is personal - as I'm sure you guys know - it's all about improving what you have and helping you along the way to better your understanding of how Chapters work, I suppose.

 

Apothete is a very knowledgeable fellow, who has helped me immennely with the Imperial Reavers, so I can recommend you give any advice that's forthcoming serious consideration.. His downfall is his inability(?) to use emoticons to give context to his comments.

 

Also, I don't call him Mr Stompy for nothing! :huh:

[Argon]

On the front of critique; None of the critique here is personal - as I'm sure you guys know - it's all about improving what you have and helping you along the way to better your understanding of how Chapters work, I suppose.

 

Apothete is a very knowledgeable fellow, who has helped me immennely with the Imperial Reavers, so I can recommend you give any advice that's forthcoming serious consideration.. His downfall is his inability(?) to use emoticons to give context to his comments.

 

I know that. I just took the critique he gave to my Oblivion Knights somewhat personally and didn't want to write any more. Thus, a lesson was learned.

 

His critique was amazingly helpful, though, even if he did sort of rip apart everything.

 

 

Also, feel free to comment. Outside ideas are always welcome.

[Lord Tybault]

The one thing I learned from the previous Iron Gauntlet is that it's never too early to post your IA. Also, don't take C&C personally, especially if it's from Apothete.

 

Understood. But if I'd take every criticism personal that headed my way, I'd have thrown myself behind a train long ago... :P

 

Anyway, back to Origins... We have grazed the problem of geneseed already and I'm not 100% sure we had come to a conclusion. There were good arguments for two or three ones, Ultramarines of course always a possibility (and the one we'd be at the least loss to explain) but I'm still in favor of mixed geneseed. Not quite sure which ones to combine, but the base would naturally be UM geneseed. Maybe coupled with Imperial Fists?

[Argon]

The one thing I learned from the previous Iron Gauntlet is that it's never too early to post your IA. Also, don't take C&C personally, especially if it's from Apothete.

 

Understood. But if I'd take every criticism personal that headed my way, I'd have thrown myself behind a train long ago... :P

 

Anyway, back to Origins... We have grazed the problem of geneseed already and I'm not 100% sure we had come to a conclusion. There were good arguments for two or three ones, Ultramarines of course always a possibility (and the one we'd be at the least loss to explain) but I'm still in favor of mixed geneseed. Not quite sure which ones to combine, but the base would naturally be UM geneseed. Maybe coupled with Imperial Fists?

 

The Imperium tried mixed gene-seed with the 21st Founding, IIRC. Obviously, it didn't work very well.

 

One gene-seed makes things easier.

[Lord Tybault]

The Imperium tried mixed gene-seed with the 21st Founding, IIRC. Obviously, it didn't work very well.

 

One gene-seed makes things easier.

True. Then we'll go with Ultramarines?

 

Anyway, I've been away for a while since I had to attend to urgent matters after failing my Trials of Purity (meaning the Reclusiam won't take me after all), but now I'm back and the February Challenge has been posted. Funny coincidence: it's about the founding of the chapter - the only part that's still not properly brainstormed here. :)

 

So, what will we do? Write, build, rule?

 

EDIT: we're of course required to do either two of the above or one double.

[Marshal Renatus]

Can't believe I haven't seen this thead before. Really applaud the team effort going into fluffing this Chapter. Couple pieces of fluff that I remember seeing in the new C:SM.

 

- Necris is in the Segmentum Tempestus. Actually, way out in Tempestus. This would make being part of the Astartes Praeses impossible.

- This would also have them looking down the barrel of loaded gun when Leviathan arrives. I would think Tyranids would be the majority of their fighting since Leviathan's arrival. Frankly, it's a miracle the planet wasn't consumed...

[Lord Tybault]

- Necris is in the Segmentum Tempestus. Actually, way out in Tempestus. This would make being part of the Astartes Praeses impossible.

Not quite - we discussed that as well and have decided that the chapter's homeworld doesn't necessarily have to be in the vicinity of the eye. It'd require the chapter to sustain a sizeable fleet to put it mildly. Or even a space fortress. Or most likely both. Not impossible, although I agree that the location of the homeworld is odd.

 

 

- This would also have them looking down the barrel of loaded gun when Leviathan arrives. I would think Tyranids would be the majority of their fighting since Leviathan's arrival. Frankly, it's a miracle the planet wasn't consumed...

There'll be others around to help because Leviathan will pose a significant threat to the whole Imperium. It is an exposed location, correct. But we haven't been told why GW put them there and I doubt we'd get an answer even if we asked them. So we make do with the few official bits we have.

[Argon]

The Imperium tried mixed gene-seed with the 21st Founding, IIRC. Obviously, it didn't work very well.

 

One gene-seed makes things easier.

True. Then we'll go with Ultramarines?

 

I guess so. It's easier that way.

 

 

Anyway, I've been away for a while since I had to attend to urgent matters after failing my Trials of Purity (meaning the Reclusiam won't take me after all), but now I'm back and the February Challenge has been posted. Funny coincidence: it's about the founding of the chapter - the only part that's still not properly brainstormed here. :)

 

So, what will we do? Write, build, rule?

 

EDIT: we're of course required to do either two of the above or one double.

 

 

It's convenient, isn't it? :)

 

I've been thinking about it, and I realized that we've really themed the Exemplars around their duty of watching over the Eye of Terror. Thus, I think the most important moment for them would be their induction into the Astartes Praeses. I don't know how we'd model that, so I was going to go with writing.

 

What do you think?

[Lord Tybault]

I guess so. It's easier that way.

Makes sense, too.

 

 

It's convenient, isn't it? :(

It is, it is. Won't be easy, though, since we only have two weeks left if I'm not mistaken.

 

 

I've been thinking about it, and I realized that we've really themed the Exemplars around their duty of watching over the Eye of Terror. Thus, I think the most important moment for them would be their induction into the Astartes Praeses. I don't know how we'd model that, so I was going to go with writing.

 

What do you think?

Well, writing 2000 words will be the easiest way not to fail. Modelling the first chapter master and giving him rules would be fun although two weeks are not very much and we'd still have to write something. Plus there'll likely be more modelling challenges heading our way as well...

 

Should I have a really good idea I'd try to do the first chapter master - let me take a quick look at the model range again, maybe I will have a revelation. :huh:

[Lord Tybault]

Okay, I have begun building the first chapter master and he will be based on this model:

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...ain_445x319.jpg

 

I'll do some customizing (chapter badge, iron halo, personal coat of arms) but, given time constraints, my approach has to be minimalistic. I also haven't thought of a good name yet so if you got an idea already, go ahead and tell me. Rules will come in a final step but I got a few ideas for that already as well.