GW's New Blood Angels FAQ

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Daboarder.. you are fully wrong when defining when the FC rule is 'used'. As Kap Pig said before:

The BRB says that when a unit with this special rule has assaulted in that turn they gain +1 Init and +1 Strength. So you are putting the FC rule to work when the unit has finished moving into assault and applying the +1 to both then.

 

This clearly describes that FC has a prerequisite.. that prereq is: 'having assaulted in that turn'

So the moment you first need FC in combat (aka, when you define order and number of attacks in an assault) you define if a unit is within 6 inch of a SP AND if they have assaulted in that turn.

 

So that is 2 prereqs at the start of the combat phase.

 

FC has no single bonus outside the timespan in which the actual order of attacks, number of attacks and strength of attacks are defined, aka: within the actual combat phase.

 

The FAQ ruling is very clear and consistent. It is people who think the combat starts the moment the assault move is done who are flawed. Do not forget, there are situations when someone makes an Assault Move but no combat comes from it (Nobs in heavy armor falling short on their difficult terrain roll are a common example) The assault move is a different part of combat than the actual attacks are. And FC is only important at the time attacks are being made.

 

About your question with the I6 guys killing a SP and therefore taking away FC. Totally agree there, it is a solid tactic to take away the punch of BAs. Might not be fluffly, but then again: The quick taking down of their Sang Priest might crush any furiosity the BA's had on the assault and create a moment of doubt fluff wise.

And balance wise.. it's not that bad that your buff bot SP is also a weakness if you rely on it ;-)

[Venerable Jazzman]

I'll try to break this down into ideas of one syllable.

 

Q: At what point does my model need to be in range

of a Sanguinary Priest to gain the bonuses of Furious

Charge?

A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the

model makes its close combat attacks.

If you look at the Assault Phase on p33 of the Rulebook, it's in three distinct parts

 

ASSAULT PHASE SUMMARY

1 Move assaulting units

 

2 Defenders react

 

3 Resolve combats

• Pick a combat.

• Fight close combat. Engaged models roll to

hit and to wound in Initiative order.

So by the FAQ answer above, Furious Charge applies and is measured when the guys are hitting and wounding in Initiative order.

So what does it do?

It adds +1 init and +1 Strength.

 

FURIOUS CHARGE

In a turn in which they assaulted into

combat they add + 1 to both their Initiative and Strength

characteristics when attacking in close combat

And did they assault?

Yes, by the Assault Phase part 1 above, Move assaulting units.

 

Now that we've cleared that up, we can look at the things that seem to be causing the issues -

 

Q: When do I measure for Furious Charge?

A: As we've just worked out, you measure when the guys are hitting and wounding.

 

Q: Oh no, my Sanguinary Priest has been killed. Do I still get Furious Charge?

A: If the Priest is still alive and in range when it's time for the guy to hit, then yes. If he's dead and off the table, then no.

 

Will an example help?

 

My Captain (I5), Vanguard (I4) and Sanguinary Priest (I4) are assaulting a Reclusiarch (I5) and some Tacticals (I4).

 

My Captain is within range of the Priest, so he gets Furious Charge, and becomes I6. He kills some of the Tacticals.

 

The Priest benefits from his own Furious Charge, becoming I5, so hits simultaneously with the Reclusiarch, wounding him.

The Reclusiarch hits my Priest with his Crozius at I5, killing him.

The Priest doesn't get a Feel No Pain from a power weapon, so is removed from the table, dead.

 

My Vanguard become I5 as they got Furious Charge when we reached the Init 5 level, and the Priest is still alive at this point

They split their attacks on the wounded Reclusiarch and the Tacticals, killing them.

 

A glorious victory for the Blood Angels.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Small nitpicking Jazzman.. not true on the Vanguard part. They have I5 because that is the moment the Initiative is at and they and the Sang Priest got +1 from Furious Charge.

All actions on the same Initiative order count as happening at the same time.

So the FNP/FC bubble will only pass AFTER I5 has passed and we are on to I4.. but the Vanguards already had I5 because of FC when Initiative order was being determined.

 

Everything else in your explanation: totally agree with.

[daboarder]

thats actually what I was originally saying, the last reply was in response to mort's posts.

 

Basically there are 4 possible times to use FC

 

1) before assualt moves are made at teh start of the turn, this is the weekest argument even though its the way we used to play it during the PDF.

2) as per the BRB after the unit "assualts" as in the assualt moves and pile in moves are made but before ANYONE attacks, this is the strongest interpretation in my ompinion as the FAQ states that the bonus kicks in when its used and the BRB states it is used at this point.

3) at the relevant I step, so for a basic marine it would be I5. this is probably the second strongest position as it is based upon the example/ie, given in the FAQ. It is however possible that the "example" is flawed.

4) technically with the most stringent of rules lawyering the argument can be made that it possible never kicks in.

 

Im inclined to side with the second interpretation as it doesnt violate EITHER the BRB nor the FAQ.

Disclaimer: this entier issue has been perhaps badly worded buy GW but its possible that a clearer example would have solved this issue.

 

EDIT: just read jazzmans post and with the exception of the noted mistake that is probably how they mean the rule to be used

[Venerable Jazzman]

Good point, editing now.

[JamesI]

well said Jazzman!

[Brother Landrain]

1) before assualt moves are made at teh start of the turn, this is the weekest argument even though its the way we used to play it during the PDF.

2) as per the BRB after the unit "assualts" as in the assualt moves and pile in moves are made but before ANYONE attacks, this is the strongest interpretation in my ompinion as the FAQ states that the bonus kicks in when its used and the BRB states it is used at this point.

3) at the relevant I step, so for a basic marine it would be I5. this is probably the second strongest position as it is based upon the example/ie, given in the FAQ. It is however possible that the "example" is flawed.

4) technically with the most stringent of rules lawyering the argument can be made that it possible never kicks in.

 

EDIT: just read jazzmans post and with the exception of the noted mistake that is probably how they mean the rule to be used

 

The correct answer for Warhammer 40k, Until now has always been 1.

Any effects at the start of a phase have always lasted until the END of that phase.

 

So Now..

 

If a Chaplain dies at higher than I4.. the squad loses fearless and rerolls?

 

If any other type of item that grants X within Y inches is removed at Init N, it no longer has effects at init N-1,N-2,N-3...N-N

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Yet Landrain.. the FAQs have shown a difference in how GW rules this now.. that they want you to check if a buff is there when it becomes important, not at the start of a phase.

 

So how it was 'always' seen does not count when new rulings come and are, surprisingly, consistent across the FAQs

[Kapitalist-Pig]

I guess the problem is that people are not understanding what they are saygin. Let me put it this way.

 

If we go with the FAQ, as it is worded, and how combat works in the BRB. The SP would NEVER give the Init bonus, because we must first go to Init 4 before we can benefit from the +1 Init, making it to late to use.

 

Or in other words if we are using the +1 in a "phase" to late we do not get the bonus. That is what the "ruling" is saying.

 

 

Another thing most people are just not getting is, "when would you use bonuses to characterisitcs?" Um I don't know when the characteristics are being used. Hello anyone see the stupidity in the question in the first place?!?! Let me see when would i use my powerfist strength modifier? when I am shooting, no. How bout when I am moving, no not the right anwser again. How bout when I am making my to wound rolls in assault combat? Yep that seems like the right one there. Oh goodie!

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

If we go with the FAQ, as it is worded, and how combat works in the BRB. The SP would NEVER give the Init bonus, because we must first go to Init 4 before we can benefit from the +1 Init, making it to late to use.

 

Wrong here.. Init is used twice.. and you need to have the +1 at both times to receive the bonus occording to FAQ.

 

First time you use it is to determine Initiative order.. so at that time the I4 becomes I5.. and once the I5 is up, you check if you still have FC and either get moved back on Init to 4 or do your action.

[the jeske]

you guys do understand that with the way your FC is worded[or rather the priest bubble is] tehre is a big chance [and it would be nothing new considering GW past] that your FC just works totaly different then all other armies FC . and that you actualy get it at a different time .

[SamaNagol]

No, because it says that you measure to check to see if they get Furious Charge when they make their attacks. They make their attacks at I4 because up until that point they do not have Furious Charge. They will never have Furious Charge when I5 models are striking, because that is not when these I4 models are due to make their attacks.

 

It is a HORRIBLY written answer, and all of you fine people are using RAI to resolve it. What they need to do is re-release the FAQ the same way they did with the Space Wolves and their Furious Charge/Counter Attack cock up.

 

'A unit which has no models within 6" of a Blood Chalice at the end of it's assault move loses the bonuses for Furious Charge' is a far better wording of the same solution.

[Leonaides]

The sky's falling in... Just wanted to make sure you all knew. :P

 

On a slightly more related point - Jazzman's explained very clearly how it would work and I'd have to agree with him. Honestly, the amount of micro-analysis you're subjecting this to is proabbly the reason why GW spent most of a whole edition saying "We wont ever do FAQ's again". Would you all rather they went back to that? Or would a minimal amoun tof common-sense be preferable?

[BlackSpike]

The sky's falling in... Just wanted to make sure you all knew. :P

 

On a slightly more related point - Jazzman's explained very clearly how it would work and I'd have to agree with him. Honestly, the amount of micro-analysis you're subjecting this to is proabbly the reason why GW spent most of a whole edition saying "We wont ever do FAQ's again". Would you all rather they went back to that? Or would a minimal amoun tof common-sense be preferable?

QFT.

 

Apart from the 'common sense' bit, which people rarely bring to Internet Discussions. Or competitive wargames.

 

The way i see it, there was confusion over whether the SP had to be in range before the Assault Move, or after.

The FAQ says After. During the 'hitting the heretics' bit, not the 'moving up to hit the heretics' bit.

So, we can play at that, or argue over what the meaning of 'is' is. ;)

 

#runs for cover from falling sky.

[Grey Mage]

you guys do understand that with the way your FC is worded[or rather the priest bubble is] tehre is a big chance [and it would be nothing new considering GW past] that your FC just works totaly different then all other armies FC . and that you actualy get it at a different time .

Nope. Universal Special Rules works the same for everyone... thats the whole point.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

conclusion = huge headache

[Brother Landrain]

you guys do understand that with the way your FC is worded[or rather the priest bubble is] tehre is a big chance [and it would be nothing new considering GW past] that your FC just works totaly different then all other armies FC . and that you actualy get it at a different time .

Nope. Universal Special Rules works the same for everyone... thats the whole point.

 

In the BRB under USR it states unless specified differently in your codex, this is the USR..

 

And no where in the Codex is FC or FNP, they refer to BRB.

[Grey Mage]

you guys do understand that with the way your FC is worded[or rather the priest bubble is] tehre is a big chance [and it would be nothing new considering GW past] that your FC just works totaly different then all other armies FC . and that you actualy get it at a different time .

Nope. Universal Special Rules works the same for everyone... thats the whole point.

 

In the BRB under USR it states unless specified differently in your codex, this is the USR..

 

And no where in the Codex is FC or FNP, they refer to BRB.

That was my point.

[the jeske]

And no where in the Codex is FC or FNP, they refer to BRB.

but it says it in the FAQ to the codex , what is the same . If everything worked the way it is worded in the rule book nid passive auras would still affect transported models.

[Mattsama]

No, because it says that you measure to check to see if they get Furious Charge when they make their attacks. They make their attacks at I4 because up until that point they do not have Furious Charge. They will never have Furious Charge when I5 models are striking, because that is not when these I4 models are due to make their attacks.

 

At this point, I pick up my army and start looking for another opponent or - gods forbid if the group are all being this fantasticly moronic - a new warstore. Once my midles are safely in my car, I walk abck inside and flip the table his army is on and leave.

 

+++Note: this is a joke.+++

 

I personally belive Jazzman has hit it dead on.

[BrotherMoses]

/facepalm I hate when people get this analytical with the rules. We play the game how it is meant to be played. There is only reason to look this deeply into a rule if their should be any confusion with how that rule is intended to play. Only the most unreasonable jerk would pretend to not be able to see the clearcut intent of how FC is suppossed to work. When you measure to check who recieves the bonus was unclear so they clarified it.

 

This is done. There is no longer any point to disect this rule.

[SamaNagol]

It's not clear cut. It's really really badly worded. And when they enforce RAW, that's not good enough for people who are meant to be professionals.

 

The fact they had to bring out this BECAUSE of loose wording means it should be analysed and stripped down to exactly what it says. They will never get a comprehensive rules set unless the consumer base does not put in the analysis and testing they clearly are unwilling to do themselves as a company.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Wrong here.. Init is used twice.. and you need to have the +1 at both times to receive the bonus occording to FAQ.

 

First time you use it is to determine Initiative order.. so at that time the I4 becomes I5.. and once the I5 is up, you check if you still have FC and either get moved back on Init to 4 or do your action.

 

 

 

So since the bonus to init happens, before combat why does it disappear? You are putting to use the bonus, which then you would apply the other. Once you apply a bonus it is there. FC has no qualification to remove the bonuses after they have been applied.(other then the end of the turn) So since FC says that the +1 to both stats are added and you use the Init before any attacks are made why then is the strength modifier not added at the same time? Also how is it that if the modifier has been added can you lose that modifier? You would have to reset the whole assault phase becasue you delcare Inits and follow that order.

 

Anyways I thought I would clear something up using the BRB, "Models make thier attacks when thier Initiative value is reached" page 36 2nd paragraph.

The reason I bring this little tidbit to the table is those that are arguing that you get the init bonus to make the attacks, but the FAQ clearly states you only apply bonuses when you make the attacks.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

if they had just said in the faq, "after assault moves, but before attacks are made." oh the humanity of it all.

 

even if you follow the example they give, i believe that it can be interpreted that you get FC, init bonus and all, regardless of whether your priest lives past init 10 or not.

 

the "example" just says when attacks are made, it doesn't say who's attacks, just when some attacks are made, so, when we need to determine initiative order to check who goes when, FC kicks in. period. there is no reasonable argument in my opinion that we wait until initiative 4 to check, that's as we say that we never check for initiative at the begining of a round of an assault and if someone tries to pull this on me i'll just go first since we never checked for initiative and established an initiative order.

 

now, at this point, my unit has FC, they have fulfilled all requirements, so, whether or not the priest is killed seems to me a moot point. they have FC, they are going at init 5 and and strength 5. FC affects a unit in a turn in which they assault, meaning to me that it lasts till the end of that turn. show me where it says that FC ends sooner than that.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

I think the arguement is that the SP grants this ability and if he is gone so is the FC