Can you guys settle a argument for me

[DAG42]

From other fluff, his pattern seems to be taking him towards Terra. Also the sword he never draws, rumors that it's the Lion sword. One thing is, it makes for a great conspiracy. Hopefully in a future HH DA book we get some juicy details.

[Isiah]

From other fluff, his pattern seems to be taking him towards Terra. Also the sword he never draws, rumors that it's the Lion sword. One thing is, it makes for a great conspiracy. Hopefully in a future HH DA book we get some juicy details.

 

Agreed. Idle speculation (although fun) on who/what Cypher is and his motives can never really be ascertained as we simply don't know enough to make that leap of certainty. Plus, I have misgivings of accepting much of earlier GW fluff as being cannon, when Black Library seem able to make subtle changes to the HH timelines/details etc with relative impunity.

 

Looking at how our current Codex changed downgraded the Deathwing/Plains World episode into some kind of 'myth' -- it wouldn't surprise me at all what twists and turns lay in stall for us with Cypher.

 

Cheers

I

[Augustus]

Yeah but we don't exactly know if Cypher is one of the Fallen do we? Just because the DA are hunting him doesn't mean he allied himself with Chaos..... He could be leading them to other fallen, using himself as bait...... He could be leading them to strategically important worlds in the war on Chaos...... the only thing more mysterious than Cypher's identity, are Cypher's motives!

 

Personally, I'm of the theory that Cypher is an unnamed (by which I mean to the reader of a Heresy-era story he would be Dark Angel #4358) Dark Angel who sided with Luthor during the Heresy, saw the error of his ways and is the first true repentant chaos marine. He took the name and persona of Cypher as an act of repentance and now does everything he can to make sure the DA hunt the Fallen wherever they hide.

 

I like this. Much like the movie Traitor and highly plausible IMO. Perhaps the Dark Angels are the ones that "whisk" him away from the Rock. And with the 40k universe being what it is and especially the Imperium including the Chapter: End Justifies the Means. I do not doubt that the Dark Angels would sacrifice any number of their own to allow Cypher keep his cover and help round up more Fallen.

 

*Reason for edit: quote tag correction*

[DAG42]

Yeah but we don't exactly know if Cypher is one of the Fallen do we? Just because the DA are hunting him doesn't mean he allied himself with Chaos..... He could be leading them to other fallen, using himself as bait...... He could be leading them to strategically important worlds in the war on Chaos...... the only thing more mysterious than Cypher's identity, are Cypher's motives!

 

Personally, I'm of the theory that Cypher is an unnamed (by which I mean to the reader of a Heresy-era story he would be Dark Angel #4358) Dark Angel who sided with Luthor during the Heresy, saw the error of his ways and is the first true repentant chaos marine. He took the name and persona of Cypher as an act of repentance and now does everything he can to make sure the DA hunt the Fallen wherever they hide.

 

I like this. Much like the movie Traitor and highly plausible IMO. Perhaps the Dark Angels are the ones that "whisk" him away from the Rock. And with the 40k universe being what it is and especially the Imperium including the Chapter: End Justifies the Means. I do not doubt that the Dark Angels would sacrifice any number of their own to allow Cypher keep his cover and help round up more Fallen.

 

*Reason for edit: quote tag correction*

 

 

The 1 problem with this is. Why go through all that trouble to steal the gene seed on Pascina IV?

[Lord_Hail]

One phrase to anwser this, "circles within circles", unless we become grand master we will never know the truth of many of our secrets. Besides who says that what we tell are recruits about the past is not the truth (plains world), and that we our really seeing who can preceave the truth. And my 2 cents, johnson not cypher, but he may work for him.....

[greatcrusade08]

it seemed no-one picked up on my earlier post about Cypher being Luther.. in the fanfic rise of the tau, the revenant had a great (and plausible) story for his roots.

His idea was that the Lion sacrificed himself to save the chapter.. he was about to kill Luther and realised if he did so he would have to reveal the truth about his homeworld and the very roots of DA being tainted by chaos.. which would result in thier deaths.

Instead he let Luther strike the killing blow, and upon seeing his sacrifice and death of Johnson by his hands, Luthers soul split in twain, the half that was forever tainted rested in his mortal body, whilst the half that seeked redemption was formed from shadows and dreams.

Even his choice of weaponry supports this, the light and dark of the bolt and plasma pistols.. purity and chaos hand in hand.

 

very ingenious and plausible story

[DAG42]

it seemed no-one picked up on my earlier post about Cypher being Luther.. in the fanfic rise of the tau, the revenant had a great (and plausible) story for his roots.

His idea was that the Lion sacrificed himself to save the chapter.. he was about to kill Luther and realised if he did so he would have to reveal the truth about his homeworld and the very roots of DA being tainted by chaos.. which would result in thier deaths.

Instead he let Luther strike the killing blow, and upon seeing his sacrifice and death of Johnson by his hands, Luthers soul split in twain, the half that was forever tainted rested in his mortal body, whilst the half that seeked redemption was formed from shadows and dreams.

Even his choice of weaponry supports this, the light and dark of the bolt and plasma pistols.. purity and chaos hand in hand.

 

very ingenious and plausible story

 

Cypher already carried those weapons before the Lion and Luther's battle. Now not knowing his real name opens all kinds of possibilities, but him being Luther is probably the least likely of all. There are other characters more likely. JMO. Remember Israfael wasn't dead after Cypher shot him. Who knows, he always seems to be psychicly wisked away before he's caught or killed.

[Arioch]

it seemed no-one picked up on my earlier post about Cypher being Luther.. in the fanfic rise of the tau, the revenant had a great (and plausible) story for his roots.

His idea was that the Lion sacrificed himself to save the chapter.. he was about to kill Luther and realised if he did so he would have to reveal the truth about his homeworld and the very roots of DA being tainted by chaos.. which would result in thier deaths.

Instead he let Luther strike the killing blow, and upon seeing his sacrifice and death of Johnson by his hands, Luthers soul split in twain, the half that was forever tainted rested in his mortal body, whilst the half that seeked redemption was formed from shadows and dreams.

Even his choice of weaponry supports this, the light and dark of the bolt and plasma pistols.. purity and chaos hand in hand.

 

very ingenious and plausible story

 

That is, with all due respect, the most ridiculous theory about Cypher I have ever heard. As far as Im concerned, souls dont split in 40k. The Lions action has no logic. Luthers choice of weapon was a great sword and boltpistol- Cypher uses 2 pistols and had a phaseknife. He carries the Lionsword, but he never draws it, because as we all know, the sword is broken...

 

Cypher is not Luther and he is not the Lion. We know that they are kept in the Rock. The reason some may connect the Lion with Cypher I believe, is because he is a figure that have that "Aragorn" feel to it. A broken sword and a quest to regain the lost. Perhabs. What Cypher really is we dont know yet, but some details may be revealed in the next DA HH-book. I read some old fluff about him in the old chaos-codex. Apparently, based on the words of a fallen, he is indeed trying to redeem the Dark Angels and reforge the sword of the Lion. His path and his ways are clouded and dark, but his actions seems to actually help the DA and sow dispute among the ranks of the traitors (it was even reflected in his rules).

So who is this guy really? I belive him to be the lord Cypher we see in the books, but there may be a small chance that Zahariel will become Cypher. Once he had fougth the good figth, once he had been a knight....

[Isiah]

I belive him to be the lord Cypher we see in the books, but there may be a small chance that Zahariel will become Cypher. Once he had fougth the good figth, once he had been a knight....

 

Maybe. But isn't there an inherent problem with lifespans here? The HH was 10,000 years ago -- how long could Zahariel live? Or did he get thrown through the Warp with the other Fallen to arrive in current 40K time?

[DAG42]

I think all who took an oath to Luther were sucked into the warp.

[hummus]

I belive him to be the lord Cypher we see in the books, but there may be a small chance that Zahariel will become Cypher. Once he had fougth the good figth, once he had been a knight....

 

Maybe. But isn't there an inherent problem with lifespans here? The HH was 10,000 years ago -- how long could Zahariel live? Or did he get thrown through the Warp with the other Fallen to arrive in current 40K time?

 

Thw original space marines were immortal according to the HH series

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I belive him to be the lord Cypher we see in the books, but there may be a small chance that Zahariel will become Cypher. Once he had fougth the good figth, once he had been a knight....

 

Maybe. But isn't there an inherent problem with lifespans here? The HH was 10,000 years ago -- how long could Zahariel live? Or did he get thrown through the Warp with the other Fallen to arrive in current 40K time?

 

Thw original space marines were immortal according to the HH series

They were immortal from their point of view since they were the first and never saw one dying of old age. probably they had larger lifespans than current marines due to gene-seed purity but their immortality was only their own belief since they only had lived two or three centuries.

[Dedecus]

And yet, Logan Grimnar cannot remember a time when Dante was not the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels. No space marine has ever died of old age since they all seem to die in combat, so saying they have a 300 year lifespan is only accurate as it's their life expectancy.

 

But back to the topic of Cypher. He can't be the Lion, since Cypher is an excellent orator and quite a bit shorter. He can't be Luther since Luther's psychic abilities are what fuel the Rock. As much as I hate it, I'm in the camp that he's the last Knight Lupus.

[Arioch]

Well, as I said it is only a small possibility. Lord Cypher matches the present Cypher completly. But one may ask how he managed to survive 10.000 years? Who know what paths that Cypher must have followed and what bargains he have made with the forces of chaos. I remember him stricking a deal with Abbadon, so I guess Cypher is used to interact with the different chaoslords. Yet he bears no true signs of corruption. The reason I think that Zahariel maybe could become Cypher, is because they mention that Cypher is only a titel, and this leads one to believe that Cypher could be another person, or many. This could be used later as some form of surprise that would blow the readers mind (or something like that).

 

Cypher seems to have been around for a very long times, but who can tell what lies beneath the hood?

[FerociousBeast]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that if they give us a third Dark Angel HH novel, it will be revealed that Zahariel becomes the Cypher during the events of the invasion of Caliban and that he is given a quest by the Lion. Zahariel's "bullet-time" ability would help explain how he's able to escape the DA's clutches time and again.

 

Perhaps the sorcery that Luther uses to smite the Lion is tied to the breaking of the sword. Perhaps by reforging the sword, the Lion will regain consciousness. Perhaps it is only the Emperor in some way who can reforge the sword. Thus explaining why Cypher is moving towards Terra bearing the broken sword. Just some idle speculation.

[hummus]

maybe cyphers armour is like exarches armour and has the original cyphers memory and personality, and all marines who wear it add their memories and personalities to it

[Arioch]

maybe cyphers armour is like exarches armour and has the original cyphers memory and personality, and all marines who wear it add their memories and personalities to it

 

Naaarrhh, thats eldartricksyness :yes:

[greatcrusade08]

That is, with all due respect, the most ridiculous theory about Cypher I have ever heard. As far as Im concerned, souls dont split in 40k.

 

yeah i guess so, but then daemons dont exist, there isnt a evil god at the heart of mars, a man cannot shred someones soul by looking at them... oh wait its all magicks and make believe, dammit where have i been hiding all this time.

 

As it goes revenants idea is as plausible as anyone elses, simply becuase noone knows the truth, i strongly advise reading his fanfic as it does explain the lions actions and the whole Luther/Cypher thing alot more clearly than i can convey.

[Arioch]

That is, with all due respect, the most ridiculous theory about Cypher I have ever heard. As far as Im concerned, souls dont split in 40k.

 

yeah i guess so, but then daemons dont exist, there isnt a evil god at the heart of mars, a man cannot shred someones soul by looking at them... oh wait its all magicks and make believe, dammit where have i been hiding all this time.

 

As it goes revenants idea is as plausible as anyone elses, simply becuase noone knows the truth, i strongly advise reading his fanfic as it does explain the lions actions and the whole Luther/Cypher thing alot more clearly than i can convey.

 

What I was trying to tell you was: Its not even sligthly plausible. Its impossible, even for a 40k standard. You have this from fan-fic and nothing wrong with that, but it has nothing to do with the "real" 40k.

[Corby]

perhaps the warp altered the fallen? The traitors who fled into the eye of terror had thier life span increased by the warp. Maybe the same occured to the fallen and Cypher?

 

Or perhaps when one cypher dies , another takes up the quest. The 'new' Cypher would then be given the sword and trademark weapons.

 

My 2 cents.

[DAG42]

perhaps the warp altered the fallen? The traitors who fled into the eye of terror had thier life span increased by the warp. Maybe the same occured to the fallen and Cypher?

 

Or perhaps when one cypher dies , another takes up the quest. The 'new' Cypher would then be given the sword and trademark weapons.

 

My 2 cents.

 

There is a couple differences between the Fallen and the other traitors. 1 being the mutations and the Fallen don't seem to be going through this and the traitors fled into the Eye of Terror. Where as the Fallen were flung thousands of yrs into the future and all over space. Remember Astellon saying he was on Caliban, and when he awoke he was somewhere else and a buttload of time had past. ( not sure how much time )

 

 

Each Cypher was chosen by the Inner Circle of the order. With Dante being 1100 plus yrs old, it's entirely possible for him to be the last of the Knights of Lupos.

[Amit]

Or is it that Cypher is really Lion'El Jonson's son - out to avenge his fathers betrayal by the Fallen. But to fight the Fallen he has to become 'Fallen'. Not the hero that 40K needed but the one it deserved. A silent protector, a watchful guardian, a Dark Knight.

[Isiah]

With Dante being 1100 plus yrs old, it's entirely possible for him to be the last of the Knights of Lupos.

Yes Dante, granted, I think he might be an exception to the rule, even so he's believed to be 1300 years old but that still leaves him at least 8,700 years short.

 

The original point on the 'HH' Cypher being the 'current' Cypher was that he most surely must flung through the Warp with the rest of the Fallen. Though there is always the slim possibility that he wasn't and that he's just extremely old :).

 

 

Or is it that Cypher is really Lion'El Jonson's son - out to avenge his fathers betrayal by the Fallen. But to fight the Fallen he has to become 'Fallen'. Not the hero that 40K needed but the one it deserved. A silent protector, a watchful guardian, a Dark Knight.

 

He had a son B). In 40K, Astartes offspring don't feature apart from the Primarch/Emperor example -- I can't think of any others. But an interesting theory.

[Brother-Librarian Hesperos]

Here is what i think, and i am probably way off. but here goes. Cypher was the current Lord Cypher at the time of the Heresy. He was thrown through the warp along with the rest of the Fallen, when he arrived he decided to help redeem the Fallen, so he slowly makes his way to Terra. Why he takes so long i am not entirely sure, maybe he just floats through space or gets thrown around by chaos who are avoiding his arrival at Terra. The later does seem much more likely. When he reaches Terra he will bring the Lion's case/concerns to the Emperor and basically plead that in the lion's stead. blah blah blah, start a long chain of events and the primarchs come back and pwn face. hope that makes sense.

[Arioch]

Or is it that Cypher is really Lion'El Jonson's son - out to avenge his fathers betrayal by the Fallen. But to fight the Fallen he has to become 'Fallen'. Not the hero that 40K needed but the one it deserved. A silent protector, a watchful guardian, a Dark Knight.

 

Oh the Lion has many sons....they are called the sons of the Lion ;)

So yes, technically Cypher was one of them, so....