HsojVvad Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Reading a thread on BoLS, someone was asking about Chapter Names before their Primarch was found. After a few pages, someone mentioned that DA name was First Legion before the Lion was found. I am wundering, if this is true? How ironic if it was true eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 According to the Black Library it's true. I'm not sure whether it was in the official background at all before then. I don't have the complete set of 1st edition era background so I don't know if that mentions anything. The 2nd edition background didn't mention that. Why do you think it's ironic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 This is news to me. Which BL book contains this information? (pretty please with sugar on top?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazei Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Information gathered from the Horus Heresy Books, via Wikipedia: "Twenty Legions of Space Marines were created by the Emperor during the Great Crusade to join and lead the Emperor's quest to unite all of humanity under the aegis of the Imperium of Man. The Dark Angels Legion was the very first of those original "First Founding" Legions to be created at the beginning of the Great Crusade, and so were originally under the command of the Emperor himself." The Legions were usually refered to by their Number throughout the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I think this was mentioned either in Angels of Darkness by Astellan or in Collected Visions, I might be wrong about the source, but I do distinctly remember reading it somewhere. Not at all surprising seeing as how the Death Guard were the Dusk Raiders and World Eaters were War Hounds. Others must have been renamed too as the Iron Hands being named what they are pre-Ferrus Mannus wouldn't have made much sense for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted July 22, 2010 Author Share Posted July 22, 2010 Why do you think it's ironic? Well to be called First Legion or what ever it was, before the Emperor showed up and in fact became the First Legion of SM of all chapters. I guess it was planned that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian MacKay Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Why do you think it's ironic? Well to be called First Legion or what ever it was, before the Emperor showed up and in fact became the First Legion of SM of all chapters. I guess it was planned that way. Hm. I think this requires some clarification. The Emperor created 20 Legions and named them I through XX. He personally led the I Legion until they found Caliban and the Lion. After the Emperor turned over the I Legion to the Lion it was renamed the Dark Angels. Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 From older sources, we were simply known as the Emperor's Angels of Death. While all Astartes were refered to as such, we were 'his' AoD which he started crusading with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 As I understand it, the Emperor created the Primarchs and then their Legions in the Legion order. So the lion was created first and the marines that would become known as the Dark Angels were the first Legion to be created once the Primarchs had been scattered. The change of name is referred to in Descent of Angels. That is, if my memory is correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 The change of name is referred to in Descent of Angels. That is, if my memory is correct! It is correct ;). After the Emperor was at last reunited with El'Jonson: "[...] The 1st Legion was thereafter termed the Dark Angels, in reference to a Caliban legend that told of great, righteous heroes who held back monsters. Announced by the Primarch, the connotation was in fact first drawn by Luther, who quoted a section from the legend upon first seeing Astartes descending using jump-packs: 'And the angels of darkness descended upon pinions of fire and light...the great and terrible dark angels.' [2*]" [2*] source: Descent of Angels (Novel) by Mitchel Scanlon. (Info from wh40k.lexicanum.com). A page ref might be good if anyone has the book to hand. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 So the lion was created first Actually all the primarchs were created at the same time, though the Legions that came from each primarch were not. So the Lion isn't the "oldest" brother amongst the primarchs, though the Dark Angel Legion is the oldest legion. I've found the pre-Primarch/post-Primarch Legion naming thing to be pretty inconsistent. Some of the Legions changed their names (World Eaters), some kept the same name (Thousand Sons), and some like the Dark Angels don't appear to have had any name at all prior to Primarch discovery. It's not necessarily a problem with the fluff, but you do have to wonder why the I Legion wouldn't have bothered to come up with another name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Conrad Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I believe they were known as the first due to them being created first but also that when you only have 1 army it doesnt need a special name does it as its the only one but as the other legions were created they were given names to seperate them from the 1st but as a honour to remind others of their status as the first they went with the name "1st Legion". Concerning the renaming of legions when their primarch was found the BL books and what i gathered from old lore is that the emperor gave the primarch the option to name the legion to their liking and the BL book indicates that as said above that the DA are named after a quote from a old calibite story that luther used to describe the first coming of the soon to be DA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted July 22, 2010 Author Share Posted July 22, 2010 I am a bit confused now. I thought it was The Lion El' Jonson who created the SM. From what I am reading now, The Emperor already had SM, and it was handed over to El' Jonson then? So my question now is, who created the SM. Was it El' Jonson or the Emperor. Or where these SM something else when they were with the Emperor and when transfered to El' Jonson, it was The Lion who made them into SM? Would that then mean all the other primarch copied El' Jonson pattern of SM then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I am a bit confused now. I thought it was The Lion El' Jonson who created the SM. From what I am reading now, The Emperor already had SM, and it was handed over to El' Jonson then? So my question now is, who created the SM. Was it El' Jonson or the Emperor. Or where these SM something else when they were with the Emperor and when transfered to El' Jonson, it was The Lion who made them into SM? Would that then mean all the other primarch copied El' Jonson pattern of SM then? The Legions were created by the Emperor using the gene-templates of the Primarchs. Then as the Emperor found the Primarchs he gave them control of the Legions with the gene-seed of said Primarch. Of course they were all Terran marines. Then upon reunion each Primarch swelled their own Legion ranks with Natives from Homeworld Primarch was found upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avenger Of The Lion Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I am a bit confused now. I thought it was The Lion El' Jonson who created the SM. From what I am reading now, The Emperor already had SM, and it was handed over to El' Jonson then? So my question now is, who created the SM. Was it El' Jonson or the Emperor. Or where these SM something else when they were with the Emperor and when transfered to El' Jonson, it was The Lion who made them into SM? Would that then mean all the other primarch copied El' Jonson pattern of SM then? The Emperor created the Primarchs 1st the Chaos gods got wind of what he was doing and so scattered them though out the whole galaxy. As the emperor could not build more sons he moved on to the next stage and built the pre IA space marine, he then took these space marines and went on his way to uniting the galaxy and trying to find his sons on the way The Lion was the 1st one to be found and the 1st to be given the army built from his DnA if I am correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Conrad Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 No Horus was the first to be found, the order for the others to be found is not really offical but i think the general thought was the lion was around the 4th or 5th to be found, but i might be totally wrong on everything but Horus being first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avenger Of The Lion Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Ah yes Horus some how slipped my mind when I read that :facepalm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Conrad Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I think that the named conventions and most things pre-heresy/finding of primarchs is even more sketchy than the horus heresy pre-BL series but i wonder how it played in the minds of the terran DA with the change from being led by the emperor to being led by the incomparison inexperienced Lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotbreak Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I don't think it would make much difference to them, they may have been created by the Big E but they were made from the gene seed of their respective Primarchs, so it would be like fighting for your grandfather then being transferred to being under the command of your father, which wouldn't be too bad :lol: edit: to put in my 2 cents, the Emperor's Children also had a pre-primarch name/or lack thereof as well before Fulgrim was found. can't remember where but it was stated that he was also given the freedom to name his legion after being found and it was quite a shock considering what he chose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted July 23, 2010 Author Share Posted July 23, 2010 No Horus was the first to be found, the order for the others to be found is not really offical but i think the general thought was the lion was around the 4th or 5th to be found, but i might be totally wrong on everything but Horus being first. Horus was found first? I thought it was the Lion. Now I am really confused. LOL *edit* Went to the Lexicum or what ever it's called, and read it there. Why do I think that El' Jonson was the first to be found? I swore I read this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Probably because he has the first legion. It's a common misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted July 24, 2010 Author Share Posted July 24, 2010 Just when I thought I took it off topic, this brings up an interesting thing. When was El' Jonoson given ownage of the SM chapter? Does anyone know? Was it right after the reunion? Was it years later of proving his worth? When and why was El' Jonshon given his SM chapter? How did the other Primarchs feel about this? Espically Horus and other Primarchs who were found before El' Jonson? Would they have been jealous because The Lion was given such an honour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Heremes Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 i dont see why any of the other primarchs would be jealous, im pretty sure each primarch recieved command of they're respective legions soon after bieng found. I dont think any of the other primarchs would be jealous or Lion for getting the 1rst legion either, it wasnt because he was preffered, it was simply because they were based on his genes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeons Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 So the lion was created first Actually all the primarchs were created at the same time, though the Legions that came from each primarch were not. So the Lion isn't the "oldest" brother amongst the primarchs, though the Dark Angel Legion is the oldest legion. I've found the pre-Primarch/post-Primarch Legion naming thing to be pretty inconsistent. Some of the Legions changed their names (World Eaters), some kept the same name (Thousand Sons), and some like the Dark Angels don't appear to have had any name at all prior to Primarch discovery. It's not necessarily a problem with the fluff, but you do have to wonder why the I Legion wouldn't have bothered to come up with another name. er, because being known as the first was a great honor? why WOULD they change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Bannockburn Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 Each Legion was created with the geneseed of its respective primarch. After each primarch was found, he was immediately given control of his legion, so it's not a special honour. The legions consisted prior to the discovery of their primarchs solely of Terran space marines and their ranks were then filled with marines created from the population of the primarch's homeworld. As has already been said, the number of the legions has nothing to do with the order in which the primarchs were discovered but here is an interesting thread about this topic. We also don't know if the number of the legions is the order in which they or their primarchs were created. It could very well be that all primarchs and all legions were created at the same time and the numbers are just arbitrary. However, the first legion was commanded by the emperor himself until Jonson was discovered, so that's a huge honor right there. A lot of the legions had other names before their primarchs were discovered and they sometimes opted to rename them, such as the Dusk Raiders became the Death Guard, after Mortarion took command of them or Angron renaming his legion the World Eaters. Not all of them were renamed, and the Sons of Horus were renamed twice, iirc. Once after he took command, the second time after he was declared warmaster by the emperor. So it's not uncommon for a legion to adopt another name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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