Brother Chris Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 When there was just 40K, it was pretty easy to say that over 10,000 years details of real history had become sketchy and that features of the 41st Millennium were projected back to give an illusion of an unchanging past. An obvious one is the idea the word 'Emperor' is the proper name of the emperor, which might be true (like Caesar becoming a title) or might be false, like the first Emperor of china or Japanese Emperors being known to history by titles rather than the names they used in life. Thus depictions of Sanguinius in art might be no more than picture of Corbulo ('he looks just like him') or unmasked Dante, or based on the death mask Dante wears (come on, who doesn't mentally picture Tutankhamun as having vaguely gold-coloured skin). The problem comes when in the 30K fiction we literally see what the past was like. If the writers deviate from the 40K 'truth' they have 'got it wrong'. If they stick to it they are perpetuating what might be very misleading post Heresy, post Ecclesiarchy, post Thor doctrines. I would like to think that, whatever they do, they do it deliberately rather than because they can't be bothered to read fluff. I personally would be guided by the very famous painting of the Dark haired emperor confronting Horus over the dead body of blonde Sanguinius as literal truth. But even here, the Emperor looks rather more like the real Dante Alighieri and the death Mask our Dante wears. For the record my guys are all blonde Italians. You can see loads of them in Milan, where I used to work, and there are plenty in renaissance paintings. (Oh, and perhaps the sarcophagi have chlorinated water in them which bleaches the hair of the mutants during their transformation. We need to look at the roots of the older brothers to know the truth...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Like who is the" red angel " in the collected visions? Angron. A nickname repeated through some of the HH novels. On the subject of James Swallow: The guy can write and I say this as more than a "he's paid to do it" jobby... But he struggles with the Blood Angels - at least post-Heresy ones anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I do not wish to start the whole discussion about how much of an 'emo' Sanguinius is, but to be honest I do hope we get to see the double nature of Sanguinius in major details here. The Primarch most loved by the common man and most feared by the Demons of Khorne. The Primarch who is the most intelligent and beautiful. A Brilliant tactician and a charismatic leader. The only one with the ability to see the future and has the spirit of the Emperor inside of him. But at the same time, the Primarch and Legion with a blood fury and aggressiveness that not only equals but can surpass that of Angron and his chapter to a level that caused no little animosity and competition between the two Legions. The only Primarch known to have fought the Bloodletter in single combat and win. The only Primarch to give his life in direct service and protection of the Emperor. But also, the only Primarch who, if he survived, could have defined the Empire and the Space Marines differently than it was done under Guilliman's influence. Do not forget that traditional days of celebration or mourning commited to Sanguinius stand as highly in the Empire as those of the Emperor himself. This man was the hero of the people, so yes he can be a lot more humane than other Primarchs because of it. Empathy is a strong emotion that, when used skillfully, can define one's motivations. And to me, Sanguinius is best described with that one word: Empathy. To me.. that is what I want to read. And I want that duality to be strong, as it not only defines Sanguinius but his entire chapter. Oh.. and seriously.. you dare call putting ash on one's face in mourning the dead 'wearing make up'? Do you forget why the Blood Angels actually paint their Death Company black completely? Ah yes.. because Black is the color of mourning the dead on Baal. Black like ash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The only Primarch known to have fought the Bloodletter in single combat and win. It was Blood-Thirster :huh: Blood-letter is a human-sized daemon, not a challenge for Sanguinius. Overall, I totally agree with you. It would be great if Sanguinius' personality was shown in full color. As for the emo-theme. The way Chaplain Gunzhard speaks of Sanguinius reminds me of Angron. Not emotional, socially active (likes slaughtering masses of people :devil: ), charismatic (so much anger concentrated in one being ;) ), fearless, not slow in decision-making (kill first, think later :lol: )... Red Angel of Death. Regarding the ritual "make-up". BA are artistic chapter. They wear masks, decorate armor and weapons with blooddrops (or red teardrops?). They paint their "enraged" brothers' armor with black to symbolize their mental death... Hell, they are the guys who call themselves "Angels". How can a brutal brawler call himself an "angel"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 As for the emo-theme. The way Chaplain Gunzhard speaks of Sanguinius reminds me of Angron. Not emotional, socially active (likes slaughtering masses of people :P ), charismatic (so much anger concentrated in one being :) ), fearless, not slow in decision-making (kill first, think later ^_^ )... Red Angel of Death. Regarding the ritual "make-up". BA are artistic chapter. They wear masks, decorate armor and weapons with blooddrops (or red teardrops?). They paint their "enraged" brothers' armor with black to symbolize their mental death... Hell, they are the guys who call themselves "Angels". How can a brutal brawler call himself an "angel"? Alright I see what is happening here... folks are just getting blindly defensive with regards to anything that says 'Sanguinius' on it... Ok I get that. However, let me say again... I'm not some overly-macho homophobe or someone lacking in compassion or understanding of the concept of mourning... so stop with the personal attacks and insinuations first. The point I was making was this: The Sanguinius from ALL of the vast resources that existed, prior to the few paragraphs in the HH books, never was a guy that wore make-up, a shawl and said things like, "I have real tears". You guys are trying to rationalize this 'new' behavior by saying he was always this, emo-duality blah blah... but you are just wrong. He was always Noble, he was always Grace and Beauty, things that would NEVER be used to describe Angron... however he did have a side like Angron, and he did have what you might describe as a dual-personality... but neither was ever the guy that wore make-up and a shawl, and said, "I have real tears.". I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that type of behavior - to be clear again - I am just saying that this wasn't the behavior of Sanguinius from every other source we have, prior to these few paragraphs. Further, while I understand mourning, I personally think it's awful silly that a creature built for war, a bio-engineered Warrior, would wear make-up and a shawl, and make a statement like that. Actual tears I can even understand, as I've said in earlier posts, but who says that? Again I say, while wearing a shawl, and make-up and even a dress and heels, is perfectly fine for you, if that is your mourning ritual - please show me anywhere in the 40k universe where any other human and/or bio-engineered super-warrior leader does anything even remotely similar. You won't find it, that sort of behavior has never existed in the 40k universe, and apparently I am alone in thinking that it really never should. No biggie. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You may want to look up a shawl on the internet to see what it is and who uses it before decrying it as something bad, same with charcole on his face being makeup and not something like warpaint... and i doubt you are the only one, just he only one here;) The older fluff puts every primarch in the bread for war killing is my business platform. Lorgar doesn't cry when his guys die, but Spoiler for the first heretic he does go to war and embrace the choas gods because his father made his sons kneel before him and get told he's wrong... early primarchs had no emotion, they kille din the name of the emp or their chaos gods, i think you just take way to much out of one part of the book as well:) most the time he's barly there;) lets wait for the new book and see how he is portrayed, hell maybe he he wears a dress under his battle armor, i dunno;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatox Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 People think astrates lack feelings when really in some ways they have stronger more powerful ones. I remember Loken and a mortal talking and her realising that Thier emotions are just as strong if different in a way... Thier bonds of brotherhood are stronger, thier anger and sorrow could be just as different :) I, for one, think Sanguinius is a bad-ass Deamon killing machine, It doesn't mean he'd not care when a great number of his sons die. The early fluff may have Lacked some aspects (I don't know because I can't claim to have read it all), and the HH novels have built the characters up. I'm sure in the older versions, Fulgrim wasn't the same as he was portrayed in his novel. Malatox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You guys are all making some huge leaps here... to be compassionate does NOT require wearing a shawl and face make-up, and crying. And someone who does NOT wear a shawl and face make-up, someone who does not cry, is not automatically a blood fiending, raving lunatic like Angron. That is ridiculous. And yes please do google 'shawl' and click on images. How many of those could you picture a god of war with wings, wearing (over his head no less). C'mon now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You guys are all making some huge leaps here... to be compassionate does NOT require wearing a shawl and face make-up, and crying. And someone who does NOT wear a shawl and face make-up, someone who does not cry, is not automatically a blood fiending, raving lunatic like Angron. That is ridiculous. And yes please do google 'shawl' and click on images. How many of those could you picture a god of war with wings, wearing (over his head no less). C'mon now... "One famous type of shawl is the tallit, worn by Jewish men during prayers and ceremonies" i just contend it is rutual not him being wimp or emo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatox Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Haha I googled Head Shawl and got a picture of a Jesus Crucifixtion costume. Weirdly I liked that I found it as it made me think of the similarities between Jesus the Savoiur and Sanguinius (sorry if I offend anyone) Maybe it's because we're from societys that don't use Shawls, but in a universe where people burn themselves with iconography of thier gods, tattoo words from thier bible and bless machines, I think a mourning, dramatic individual could get away with ashes and a shawl... (I know it's 10,000 years later a lot of this happens, but the principle still stands. And by Dramatic I don't mean anything bad, thief nothing wrong with being dramatic :)) Isn't Ash Wednesday a day of mourning? :S Malatox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Isn't Ash Wednesday a day of mourning? :SMalatox no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Isn't Ash Wednesday a day of mourning? :SMalatox no Eh, kinda... Lent is a period of ritual fasting, which is kind of like mourning. Ash Wednesday marks the beginning of Lent, so it's a day of repentance and lamenting our sins. But it's not mourning anything specific. So no, not exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 no not kinda.:D Ash Wednesday is a day of repentance. Ashes were used in ancient times, according to the Bible, to express mourning. Dusting oneself with ashes was the penitent's way of expressing sorrow for sins and faults. (those darned make up weareres!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatox Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Thanks for clearing that up guys :D. I wasn't too sure, not being very religious myself and I hope I didn't offend anyone Malatox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Thanks for clearing that up guys :mellow:. I wasn't too sure, not being very religious myself and I hope I didn't offend anyoneMalatox (wikipedia has a lot of answers when i'm not sure);) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 last time im even commenting on the damned shawls :mellow: shawl now inmagine it beeing made from gold chain really though...the word shawl is more used to give you an mental image of its form then anything else if you ask me. its made from :( ing GOLD CHAIN!!! end of discussion. (as far as im concerned :D) that said what was this topic about again? i still dont know the title that this book is going to have ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 last time im even commenting on the damned shawls :mellow: shawl now inmagine it beeing made from gold chain really though...the word shawl is more used to give you an mental image of its form then anything else if you ask me. its made from :( ing GOLD CHAIN!!! end of discussion. (as far as im concerned :D) that said what was this topic about again? i still dont know the title that this book is going to have ;) and the name is in the first post, it's even italicized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatox Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 It's called Fear to Tread... At first I was like "I thought this was about Blood Angels not Tanks!!"... Then I re-read it :mellow: Malatox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The Primarch most loved by the common man and most feared by the Demons of Khorne. The Primarch who is the most intelligent and beautiful. A Brilliant tactician and a charismatic leader. The only one with the ability to see the future and has the spirit of the Emperor inside of him. But at the same time, the Primarch and Legion with a blood fury and aggressiveness that not only equals but can surpass that of Angron and his chapter to a level that caused no little animosity and competition between the two Legions. The only Primarch known to have fought the Bloodletter in single combat and win. The only Primarch to give his life in direct service and protection of the Emperor. But also, the only Primarch who, if he survived, could have defined the Empire and the Space Marines differently than it was done under Guilliman's influence. Do not forget that traditional days of celebration or mourning commited to Sanguinius stand as highly in the Empire as those of the Emperor himself. This man was the hero of the people, so yes he can be a lot more humane than other Primarchs because of it. Empathy is a strong emotion that, when used skillfully, can define one's motivations. And to me, Sanguinius is best described with that one word: Empathy. To me.. that is what I want to read. And I want that duality to be strong, as it not only defines Sanguinius but his entire chapter. You've outlined the problem. The Fluff regarding Sanguinius portrays him as too incredible, and that kind of incredible does not make for a compelling character. There is nowhere for this character to develop or grow. The ultimate badass makes for a paper thin character and does nothing except provide service to fanbois. As a fanboi myself, I wouldn't mind this kind of treatment of the character, but I recognize that it makes for terrible literature. We are going to have to concede some flaws and quirks in the character of Sanguinius to Mr. Swallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 wait....what? the book is called fear to tread? i thought he feared to tread....something but he called his book that? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The Primarch most loved by the common man and most feared by the Demons of Khorne. The Primarch who is the most intelligent and beautiful. A Brilliant tactician and a charismatic leader. The only one with the ability to see the future and has the spirit of the Emperor inside of him. But at the same time, the Primarch and Legion with a blood fury and aggressiveness that not only equals but can surpass that of Angron and his chapter to a level that caused no little animosity and competition between the two Legions. The only Primarch known to have fought the Bloodletter in single combat and win. The only Primarch to give his life in direct service and protection of the Emperor. But also, the only Primarch who, if he survived, could have defined the Empire and the Space Marines differently than it was done under Guilliman's influence. Do not forget that traditional days of celebration or mourning commited to Sanguinius stand as highly in the Empire as those of the Emperor himself. This man was the hero of the people, so yes he can be a lot more humane than other Primarchs because of it. Empathy is a strong emotion that, when used skillfully, can define one's motivations. And to me, Sanguinius is best described with that one word: Empathy. To me.. that is what I want to read. And I want that duality to be strong, as it not only defines Sanguinius but his entire chapter. You've outlined the problem. The Fluff regarding Sanguinius portrays him as too incredible, and that kind of incredible does not make for a compelling character. There is nowhere for this character to develop or grow. The ultimate badass makes for a paper thin character and does nothing except provide service to fanbois. As a fanboi myself, I wouldn't mind this kind of treatment of the character, but I recognize that it makes for terrible literature. We are going to have to concede some flaws and quirks in the character of Sanguinius to Mr. Swallow. Honestly I think a lot of you guys need to read up on your BA history lol sorry... so the few paragraphs from the HH-books depicting Sanguinius as aloof and over-sensitive, and I would go so far as to say Michael Jackson-esque... are what give him personality? ...and ALL of the stuff written about him prior was just 'fanboi' service? OH - Dear. And Demoulius dude, I'd say your Shawl photo and 'gold chain' mental image really kind of prove my point. Can you honestly picture a god of war with wings wearing that? ...So here you guys have Sanguinius going from a blond Italian 'boring' superman, to a religious and mothering hasidic jew, that paints his face because of ash Wednesday rituals. Hah I mean... clearly there is nothing wrong with any of those things - it is just not Sanguinius; well I should say - it wasn't. He can have character and depth, and be compassionate and even mourn his dead men - without wearing a golden shawl, wearing make-up, and saying, "No I have real tears.". You guys are acting like those little strange tidbits are what defines him, and if it weren't for those things he would be a raving psycho like Angron... that's crazy and really makes no sense at all.... and again I will repeat that however acceptable this type of behavior may be in some cultures... it has never existed in the 40k universe, let alone for Sanguinius or any of the bio-engineered warriors. Finally, I'll give you guys that the Space Marines are a somewhat ritualistic bread; whether it's chants to the machine spirit, or the Sanguination etc... but don't forget that the Emperor stamped out religion and religious ceremony within the Imperium of man, and really only the Word Bearers discreetly chose to ignore this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 And Demoulius dude, I'd say your Shawl photo and 'gold chain' mental image really kind of prove my point tbh i dont see how it does.... or see how sanguinius wearing something looking like that (whatever made from gold or not ) is suddenly not sanguinius m8. but whatever, were disccusing some lines written in a few black library books here. as far as im concerned theyre not to be taken canon (as is the same for any black library book that comes out) so if you prefer to keep the image in your head as before these books came out, go ahead m8. theyre just books that we read for enjoyment after all, nothing to get our panties in a twist over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 first off, how the hell is it michael jackson-esq? i see zero comparison to sang... second, it's still just ritual mourning wear, nothign to do with being religious, i was just pointing out that the view of a shawl being womens wear is WRONG and there are plenty of other sources then the Mall for looking at things. he isn't make up wearing, he has charcoal on his cheeks, are the space wolves makeup wearing with warpaint on? and you still seam to think that him saying "no i have real tears" means more then it does, he's saddened by the loss of a company of his sons, he isn't sitting there crying a river, then he and horus go down and exterminate the entre race, with horus trying to outdo him in combat... i dont' care about all this duality others are putting out, all i say is that that line means little, i suppose you'de like it more if he just showed up and slaughtered the planet, but most of us like that there was some interaction... and for your finaly, ceremony and religion while not unknown to go togeather, do not always go togeather. and it's not YOUR view and interpitation of the fluff, i think we get that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 And Demoulius dude, I'd say your Shawl photo and 'gold chain' mental image really kind of prove my point tbh i dont see how it does.... or see how sanguinius wearing something looking like that (whatever made from gold or not ) is suddenly not sanguinius m8. but whatever, were disccusing some lines written in a few black library books here. as far as im concerned theyre not to be taken canon (as is the same for any black library book that comes out) so if you prefer to keep the image in your head as before these books came out, go ahead m8. theyre just books that we read for enjoyment after all, nothing to get our panties in a twist over Hah agreed dude... I was fine to let the topic die... but suddenly I was a 'macho' homophobe that lacks compassion because I think the shawl is stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 i for one just think you put to much stock into it being a shawl:) (could be a ballcap or a viking helm for all it matters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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