Brother Asmanael Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I haven't read the first few books in awhile but it seems like I am finding myself rooting for the "bad guys" these days. I am just finishing up "The First Heretic" now. I love it so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Well it is leaning pro-Chaos prolly cause Chaos wins And if the outcome justifies the deed, then Chaos pretty much put all the feathers in their cap, even though victory was not decisive. And I highly doubt that the Emperor's "Grand Plan" was to get crippled and become an undead Lighthouse for an empire that now exponentially feeds the Powers He has been trying to fight since his birth. Not much of a plan for a Grand Strategist if you ask me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 To be honest, I think they've been pretty fair to both sides thus far. It might seem like Chaos is getting a lot more play because genuine information from the Traitors' POV has been lacking in fluff for far, far too long, especially given that the Loyal side of the Heresy was what's been told all that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 @Chaplain ChonkE: how can you say that Chaos won the Heresy? I'm pretty sure Terra and the rest of humanity is intact, the emperor is alive, and Horus died. Looks like a victory for the Imperium if you ask me. Maybe the series is just written in such a way that most of the readers sympathize with the traitor legions. After all, their side of the story was never told before now. It depicts the traitors as noble (much like the loyalists since they were at that time) because they never really said "hey, let's go destroy humanity!" they were only doing what they thought was righteous. They, like the loyalists, wanted what was best. It just so happens that they saw the wrong thing as best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Chaos won because they retained their status quo, having trillions of humans pumping negative emotions to warp pool every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 The traitor legions didn't win, they were defeated by the loyalists. The Chaos Gods did win. The Dark Gods achieved their goal of a galaxy of eternal war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Chaos are winning SO FAR in the series. Cause the story is only half done and we're still building to the darkest days. Once we get through the whole story, and we see the Emperor's Children butchering billions on Terra, the World Eaters debased into frothing lunatics, and a few more scenes like in Nemesis where the Word Bearers force thousands of civilian prisoners to lie on top of melta bombs they detonate in the shape of the star of Chaos, the traitors will seem much less sympathetic, regardless of how they started down that road. Add in the loyalists actually winning some crucial battles (Scars at the spaceport, Sanguinas and crew at the gate, and of course the aftermath of the Emperor whooping Horus), and who won or lost might look a bit different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yeah I totoally agree with the OP. The focus on the series has certainly been from the side of the "Traitor Legions". Interestingly enough, much of the time it has been from Loyalists who descend from those Legions, but still alot of focus on the Traitor Primarchs and their Legions. Looking at what we have so far in the series, we have the first 3 books all being focused on a Traitor Legion (crucially, no complaints there from anyone), Fulgrim, Flight of the Istvaan (though loyalists from a Traitor Legion who meet up with a Loyalist Legion), Legion, A Thousand Sons and The First Heretic. That's 8. Counter to that we have 2 which aren't really from the peresective of a Legion, but have tid-bits in both. Mechanicum features Loyalists and Nemesis features a tiny bit of a Loyalist Legion and a bit of Chaos action. So these 2 really don't count as are the focus is not really on the Astartes. Then we the other side of the coin; 2 Dark Angels books, Prospero Burns and the Battle for the Abyss. That's 4, and of those the Dark Angels books were ill-received, particularly the first one, and the Battle for the Abyss featured very limited action from a Legion perspective. So yes I would say there is definite disparity there. I am worried about the series as a whole to be honest, not because it isn't awesome or well thought out, but because there is only so many books BL are prepared to make. I think we can all agree we want to see our favourite Chapter/Legion get some air time in at least one book, but can we really expect that? I for one hope BL extend the series beyond the Heresy to the Scouring and beyond (like in Codex Space Marines there is mention of the Ultramarines fighting the Star Striders I think they were called) but also has a few prologues to the Heresy from Legion perspectives. And I say this as a fan who wants to know more about each of the Legions leading up to the Heresy and beyond. Like I said though, there is a possibility this won't happen because BL only have a finite amout of resources and I am perhaps being a little demanding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 As someone else said, if they sell in enough volume, there's not a problem of limited resources. If they stop selling that much, then there's a problem. Could be quite neat if we get the reverse of the first half, where we've followed loyalists in traitor legions, and get some novels dealing with loyalist legion having to purge traitors in their midst. Nothing on the scale of the DAs, but are we saying that there were absolutely NO Raven Guard, Ultras or Salamanders who identified with Horus and his arguments? That supposes they were ever allowed to hear said arguments. In the case of the Raven Guard and Salamanders, Istvaan III did all the talking. If there were anyone in the other Legions sympathetic to Horus in lieu of the Emperor, they probably very wisely either kept that to themselves, or else spoke about it to others and were whisked away to an unknown fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 As someone else said, if they sell in enough volume, there's not a problem of limited resources. If they stop selling that much, then there's a problem. Could be quite neat if we get the reverse of the first half, where we've followed loyalists in traitor legions, and get some novels dealing with loyalist legion having to purge traitors in their midst. Nothing on the scale of the DAs, but are we saying that there were absolutely NO Raven Guard, Ultras or Salamanders who identified with Horus and his arguments? So far we seen: Dark Angels - two books, plus short story Emperors Children - one, plus decent roles in three others Iron Warriors - only fleeting appearances to date White Scars - nothing Space Wolves - one book, plus short story, plus appearances in another two. Imperial Fists - a few of notable appearances Night Lords - one appearance in audiobook = short story Blood Angels - couple of brief appearances. One definitely coming Iron Hands - prominent supporting role in one World Eaters - prominent supporting roles in one, plus great short story Ultramarines - one, kinda. Plus important appearance in another. Death Guard - one book, prominent mention in another. Thousand Sons - one book, prominent supporting roles in two more. Luna Wolves - three books et al Word Bearers - one book plus prominent role in second. Salamanders - virtually nothing (didn't even get much discussion during the dropsite massacre thus far) Raven Guard - an audiobook, and a cameo in another. Alpha Legion - one book. Thus far, most of the legions have got some coverage. The White Scars and Fists are probably among those most needing some love, but that is definitely coming in the Siege of Terra. Meanwhile, the Salamanders have got nothing, and have already been wiped out in terms of where we are in the timeline (although they obviously do backtrack). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorridgeMeister Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 In the Loken Sub-trilogy, it makes Horus look like the good guy for betraying the Emperor (apart from the fact that they slaughter the Loyalists at Isstvaan) and that he merely allies with Chaos. Later though, it becomes apparent that the Traitor Legions are seriously messed up, but in the DA sub-series, Lion-El Jonson and by extent the Emperor look evil for terrorising Caliban. Bottom line; in my opinion the answer is yes and no. In some cases, Horus looks good and the Emperor bad. In other cases, it's the other way round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyros Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Well, as we all know the standard (not BL-material) is from an Imperium point of view. And from that point everything is black and white. Chaos is evil and the Imperium is the shinning beacon of humanity. Or is it? Welcome the HH-bookline! Now we a lot more gray areas in the black and white universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Torch. Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 White Scars - nothing I think the White scars are actually mentioned in Decent of Angels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 White Scars - nothing I think the White scars are actually mentioned in Decent of Angels... They are indeed in one of the two da books(can't remember which). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have this feeling that when a White Scars book is released they and their Primarch are going to be epic in every single way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have this feeling that when a White Scars book is released they and their Primarch are going to be epic in every single way. Agreed. There are at least two actions the fight with alpha legion and sige of terra. Selfishly, I'd love for them to do a book against the alphas with the sw's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Alaric Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 A White Scars Stormlord also appears in A Thousand Sons to argue for Magnus' case. Seemed like a very neat fellow, looking forward to a WS novel (whenever that will come around). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 A White Scars Stormlord also appears in A Thousand Sons to argue for Magnus' case. Seemed like a very neat fellow, looking forward to a WS novel (whenever that will come around). Yeh i think this guys name is on Garro's list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Asmanael Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Any chance there will be an emperor-centric book? I would love to see everything from his pov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Little chance of an Emperor POV - sadly in a way, but probably wisely, GW and BL seem to have decided for good that its better for us not to see the workings of the Emperor's mind except for how the characters around him perceive it. You're all quite right about the White Scars - they are the force the DAs relieve in Descent of Angels on the planet where all the people veil their faces all the time. And they may well have appeared at Nikea (must confess I don't remember that, but only read A Thousand Sons once). But really, apart from a couple of brief appearances that really gave us nothing about them as a Legion, they've been conspicuously absent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hengist Ironfang Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Rather than quantity of books the traitors have had my biggest concern is certain key areas of the story, namely the creation of the primarchs; so far we have seen this twice at least from a heavily biased traitor perspective, I think the big E is being portrayed as a bit of a plonker atm, most of the books contain the traitors teen angst saying "OMG Dad your ruining my life, I must be adopted" now I feel moved to feel a little sorry for lorgar and magnus and i shake my head along with everyone else at decisions, which when witnessed from a traitors perspective, look very bad. What i want is to see a balancing, a book from the imperial high ups, I know a book about the emperor is never gonna happen but what about a book from the sigillites POV? would certainly go along way to re-balance a few viewpoints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 What I find interesting is that the series is obviously trying to put a positive spin on the chaos legions and a negative one on the good guys. What that means in the end? All marines are flawed and more human in 30K than they appear in 40K. An interesting take which makes all the HH novels much more appealing due to the multi-layered characters. But yes, you do sort of get a feeling that they are playing down the good guys and making us feel sorry for the bad guys. Just look at the Emperor... calling him a bloodthristy bastard etc. Nobody is a good or bad guy anymore. Much more interesting to read about, but slightly upsetting the status quo of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 What I find interesting is that the series is obviously trying to put a positive spin on the chaos legions and a negative one on the good guys. /disagree. I don't think the books are putting a positive spin on the Traitor Legions so mush as giving a view of them with out 10k years of negative propaganda. The view of the Traitors from within has to show both sides. The loyalest in the traitor legions still have love for their brothers, so their accounts of the events will be bias. The negative view i think are also relative. With out 10k years of positive propaganda some of the Loyal legions don't look so good. Loyal Primarchs are not the total good guys they have been portrayed. Mistakes from loyal Primarchs being pointed out and examined can do nothing other then tarnish their image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 That is actually exactly what I said... basically it is making everything much more grey than black and white... That makes for much better stories in 30K than 40K... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 But there does need to be a balance in the series. After all, the Loyalists aren't complete fools, they were the equals to their brothers etc. We do need to see some of their perspective with a little more depth, as at present we seem to have just the minions view on things (i.e. just doing the job) with a few Dorn snap-shots rather than a concerted effort to illustrate just what Guilliman thought was going on or what Ferrus Manus thought of the events in Fulgrim etc. I doubt they will, but a whole series of books should be created that gives us 3 or so books of pre-Heresy goodness before the Heresy for each Legion. Or even just one... That probably won't happen though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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