Billuriye Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The person to dislike is Lorgar the gutless flip flopper. He didn't flip flop the Emperor did. Lorgar became confused because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The person to dislike is Lorgar the gutless flip flopper. He didn't flip flop the Emperor did. Lorgar became confused because of that. He was not confused because of the Emperor reprimanding him. The Emperor never stated that he was a god - so no flip flopping here. Lorgar was confused by the fact the Emperor denied his godhood. It is a pity to see someone so desperately looking for an approved deity to believe in. Lorgar's problem was that he needed to find this "True Faith" so strong that he didn't care for the consequences, for the price to be paid. I think Lorgar didn't flip flopped consciously - he did it occasionally, pursuing his obsessive idea. In my opinion, he was obsessed with his idea of the "true faith" like Magnus was with the idea of the "absolute knowledge", only that Lorgar didn't pay the price as Magnus did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Actually the most annoying thing I found was the whole.. Xaphen hating Kor Phaeron in The First Heretic, then suddenly not because the Word has changed.. it left a very much :) moment.. Xaphen was probably jealous of Kor but when he became one of Lorgar's favoured sons his hatred faded. It wasn't jealousy, because it was stated that he hated him for "not being a true Astartes..", in that he was only augmented rather than elevated to the status of Space Marine - in the way that Luther or other of the Dark Angels were. He still hated him for that, but it showed the difference between the Chaplains and the rest of the Legion. Argel Tal and Xaphen were close brothers. Then they find the truth, and we see them four decades later. Xaphen now respects one of the Legion's religious leaders for more than just hating him for his genetic legacy, because his priorities have changed; and he's keeping secrets, essentially showing a much more distant side to himself than we'd seen before. The "sudden" change wasn't sudden at all - it was a look at two brothers after 40 years have passed, and one of the brothers has been keeping very dark company. You expect it to be a happy reunion, but it's not. It's sort of awful. Xaphen has become a tool. Hey, no fair rebutting my premise with your sorcerous author ways! In terms of time frame: I suppose its hard to consider period of time when you read a static text - it took me about 20 hours to finish the book, all told, so that sense of time never came through even if I had read "40 Years Later..." On the subject of hate and respect: I perfer my hatreds to be pure, for me there is no line where hatred and respect can meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 He was not confused because of the Emperor reprimanding him. The Emperor never stated that he was a god - so no flip flopping here. Lorgar was confused by the fact the Emperor denied his godhood. But Lorgar says the Emperor never denied his godhood when he first came to Colchis and never rebuked Lorgar once for lauding him as a god. Only after 100 years the Emperor suddenly becomes the ultimate atheist and violently purges a city for it's beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 He was not confused because of the Emperor reprimanding him. The Emperor never stated that he was a god - so no flip flopping here. Lorgar was confused by the fact the Emperor denied his godhood. But Lorgar says the Emperor never denied his godhood when he first came to Colchis and never rebuked Lorgar once for lauding him as a god. Only after 100 years the Emperor suddenly becomes the ultimate atheist and violently purges a city for it's beliefs. Not to deny is not to admit. And btw the whole Great Crusade was carried out under the 'atheistic' banner of Imperial Truth. After 100 years Lorgar should have notice it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I think the fundamental factor in Lorgar's fall was the fact that he didn't see himself in the same light as his brothers. There's a short passage in TFH where he acknowledges that he doesnt want to be the warlord the Primarchs are supposed to be. Considering the Emperor designed Astartes to be the most superior killing machines ever conceived and the Primarchs the greatest warriors in creation, that's one hell of a radical step off the straight and narrow (or the straight and narrow as the Emperor defined it) We can gather from the books released so far, along with codices and other sources, that each of the Primarchs fought in the Great Crusade for different reasons. Some (Angron, Russ, Khan) fought because they loved to fight and it was what defined them. Some (Sanguinius, possibly Fulgrim) fought because it was the only way to establish the supremacy of the human race throughout the galaxy. And then there is Lorgar. The fact that he was raised on a world where its hinted forms of Chaos worship already existed by not the most "balanced" of men (I personally detest Kor Phaeron after reading Scions of the Storm. I wanted nothing more than Corax to gut him at Istvaan) lends itself to saying his fall was inevitable or the other way to look at it would be; if the other 17 Primarchs defined their lives with the Great Crusade (Magnus aside and look where he ended up), then if the drive of the warrior was missing from Lorgar then he would need to fill that void somehow. As it happened he sadly chose the 1 thing in the galaxy his father was determined to destroy. If that makes any sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Also isnt he in a dread in dark creed? so something bad happened to him. No, that's the Warmonger. Erebus is very much intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Billuriye Posted Today, 02:24 PM QUOTE (Gv0zD @ Jan 25 2011, 03:13 PM) He was not confused because of the Emperor reprimanding him. The Emperor never stated that he was a god - so no flip flopping here. Lorgar was confused by the fact the Emperor denied his godhood. But Lorgar says the Emperor never denied his godhood when he first came to Colchis and never rebuked Lorgar once for lauding him as a god. Only after 100 years the Emperor suddenly becomes the ultimate atheist and violently purges a city for it's beliefs. I had a thought on this. The Emperor has been around for about 38000 years by this time, and we've been told by the Cabal in Legion that he takes the long view. So maybe the passage of time to him seems a bit different to us mere mortals and he doesn't notice these things quite as we do. Imagine if he was 38 years old then proportionately that 100 years period would be like him not noticing for about a month that Lorgar was worshipping him as a god, and on this basis the whole Heresy thing would creep up on the big E in a matter of days to his long time perspective. Not saying its true, but maybe a different way of looking at Him and His sometimes seemingly inexplicable actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I do not think the Emperor did not notice what Lorgar was doing. After all the Emperor is the most powerful Psyker around with hundreds of troops loyal to him, he landed on a planet that was worshipping him only to discover it was his own son leading the people. I am certain the Emperor knew, now as to why he did not do anything who knows. Perhaps the Emperor at first did not care, perhaps he thought it was just a faze his son was going through, or just perhaps Lorgar was doing exactly what he had been designed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgard Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I'm so sick of seeing your name. Every bloody time, I think "God, that's a great name for a Chaos warlord... Don't use it... Don't use it... They'll say you come to B&C to steal ideas..." I hate you. Didn't Nick Kyme use some of the names from B&C in his Salamanders novels, as a set of acknowledged cameos? As far as my 2 rubles go, if an established BL author used my user name as a character in his novel, I'd feel pretty happy about that. It sounds like Khestra doesn't exactly have an issue with that either ;) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brannick Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I would gladly appear as some lacky who gets crushed underfoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I have one question and I dont want to create a new topic, but as you are discussing also events in The First Heretic I would like to ask one thing: Eye of terror is mentioned as mysterious place being behind borders of imperium and Word Bearers as first to explore ti. But how is that possible? Caliban seems very close to Eye so in times of great Crusade it should be known at least by DA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I have one question and I dont want to create a new topic, but as you are discussing also events in The First Heretic I would like to ask one thing: Eye of terror is mentioned as mysterious place being behind borders of imperium and Word Bearers as first to explore ti. But how is that possible? Caliban seems very close to Eye so in times of great Crusade it should be known at least by DA... Just because you can see the creepy old place across the street doesn't mean you ever ventured through its door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I have one question and I dont want to create a new topic, but as you are discussing also events in The First Heretic I would like to ask one thing: Eye of terror is mentioned as mysterious place being behind borders of imperium and Word Bearers as first to explore ti. But how is that possible? Caliban seems very close to Eye so in times of great Crusade it should be known at least by DA... Just because you can see the creepy old place across the street doesn't mean you ever ventured through its door. It doesn't even mean you notice the creepy old place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurgling6688 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I think Erebus is annoying as a character like most people have said. Hes just sooo manipulative and underhanded. I expect he spends his free time doing the evil finger steeple thing while brooding in his super lair inside a hollowed out volcano. Also I kind of dont like Lorgar. As a primarch he is so weak, and i dont mean physically. He has the will power of a 5 month old toddler. In the realm of high school drama that is the Primarchs, Lorgar is the 16 year old girl with a self image problem who goes to cry in a corner any time someone says something slightly mean about how she looks. Then she takes out her anger by destroying entire populations of worlds to try and make her daddy happy. Personally I think all the Primarchs act like spoiled teenagers with a lot of angst and daddy issues. The only ones who show any sort of adult composure are Guilliman, Dorn, Sanguinius, the Khan, Vulcan and Horus before his fall. Im waiting for ABC to start up a show based on the Primarchs called "The Emperor Rejects" which can catalog all of their petty bickering and back stabbing. Despite all of this, i LOVE the Primarchs and i do think they are awesome. I just hope no one with that many personality problems ever holds as much power as they do. Also despite what i said about Lorgar i think ADB handled him wonderfully and really showed how it is the first Primarch to turn to Chaos would do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Although I have to agree with the census that Erebus is annoying, it's not because of why I typically find character's annoying. Erebus annoys me because he maipulates everyone to believe nad follow what he wants, while at the same time retaining complete control of his emotions. Why can't he retain control of his selfishness and complete disdain for anyone who doesn't go along with his plan? That's what it seems like to me, anyways. I do think Lorgar should have had more control over Kor Phaeron and Erebus, but the problem was he saw them as teachers as opposed to sons. That seemed weird to me, but Lorgar isn't your typical primarch, so it makes sense. I don't think that makes him weak - look how he handled Malcador and Guillimann when he was truly angry, doesn't seem very weak and simpering to me - but it does show he is easily biased, like all the primarchs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Lorgar himself is easily fooled and manipulated by Erebus and Kor Phaeron and widely viewed as the runt of the Primarchs. I hate Erebus mainly because he is largely responsible for orchestrating the heresy and is know it all -naughty word-. I'd love to see a Primarch swat his head from his shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Do you suppose if we all offered to bribe A-D-B with loots of cookies and smarties he'll relent and retcon everything into Erebus (and definitely Kor Phaeron) being sliced and diced before the walls of the Imperial Palace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyprus Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I wish that priestess on Davin killed Erebus for good................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 The fact that Erebus incites so much hatred from you non-believers is exactly why he is such a great character. If he factors this much in peoples *Rawr-u-started-this-whole-mess!!* then he is a character well written and will remain as one of the HH greatest villains. In my opinion, Horus is the big bad guy and as a character the reader needs to see him as a deadly threat to the Imperium. Erebus offers the reader a character that can be thwarted without diminishing the threat of Horus. Things go wrong for Erebus, his plots and machinations can become unravelled by Imperial protagonists (see Nemesis etc), much the same as Abbadon in the 41st. And as for the Lorgar bashing I see here.........your time will come :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Nah, there's a difference between being hated as a great villain and being hated as a bad character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Nah, there's a difference between being hated as a great villain and being hated as a bad character. I think calling Erebus a *bad character* is a pretty spurious comment seeing as the majority of complaints here are of the *Damn you Erebus you troublemaker* variety and not *Stupid pointless Erebus, why is he even here* He's a well written and fleshed out persona in the HH so I'll stand by my assessment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Lol. Spurious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Lol. Spurious. spu·ri·ous (spyr-s) adj. 1. Lacking authenticity or validity in essence or origin; not genuine; false. Hope this helps :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 @Vixthra: I could not agree more, my main concern with Erebus was that he seems to have been over played in the books appearing a lot of the time. I do however think everytime i have seen him he has been well written and he makes an interesting villain. I find things a lot better that he is more the route of Heresy then others, he is the one who takes people onto the dark road without Erebus would the Heresy been as succesful as it was. He is truley a favourate of the Chaos Gods. My only concern is it would be nice to not have Erebus appear as often as he does, after all there were many Word Bearer Chaplains all helping with the goal of Chaos taking over, why not introduce more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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