The Paladin Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Got two solid games in tonight versus Tyranids and Eldar. The IG player who I posted about earlier put together a Henchman army and tried it out against Orks. We had a great time watching that game and I will post the Highlights and Notes for it tomorrow. Right now it is time for... GK vs. Tyranids: Pitched Battle - Objectives 4 Highlights: -One Purifier unit spent the entire game killing Gaunts by the handful, and then moved right on to take out a Tervigon. This really set the tone for the entire game, it became apparent that MCs are really at a disadvantage against so many Force Weapons. -Warp Quake managed to kill off an entire unit of Ravaners. -GM with a unit of Paladins went toe to toe with a Tyrant and Guard. Lashwhips really hurt reducing all models in B2B to I1. Rad Grenades again did a fantastic job allowing me to get in a few blows. It took two turns of combat but thanks to the Brotherhood Banner activating the Force Weapons every one of the Tyrant and Guard went down at the cost of a Paladin and a number of additional wounds, my GM walked away with only one wound left. -I kept the NDKs in for another game just to see if I had misjudged them from last night. I moved them up slowly and then shunted them towards the 'Nid objectives. They went right to work on the T-Fexs and Warriors holding the rear objectives. Lost one of my NDKs to a unit of Warriors who took him down to I1 and then went to work on him. He smashed out two Warriors with his Hammer but just couldn't hold on for another round. -Lost my Keeper of the Flame to Shadow in the Warp when I rolled for my Force Weapons against a Warrior unit with an attached Prime in it. Ended up losing the entire unit of Purifiers to the Warriors. -Final score was GK 2 to the 'Nids 0. Notes: -MCs fold before Gray Knights. The Brotherhood of Psykers with force weapons is very powerful and 'Nids got the short end of the stick. I have used force weapons to take out HQs and other multi-wound models in every game I have played so far. I kinda think this power has gone too far. -Warp Quake is a great power! I was just keeping it up every turn just for kicks and when the Ravaners got caught in it I understood a little better why people might want to have a unit of GKSS handy. -It was written in a different thread that Dread Knights aren't very good at shooting but are great at CC. This isn't really true, at least in my games, so far. Their stats are great but they don't really stop elite units with lots of power weapons from taking them apart. I think their real strength though is the 30 inch shunt. It is scary to suddenly have a big honking monster suddenly appear right behind your lines and then go to work. -Paladins are alright. I would have lost a number of Terminators in the fight with the Tyrant and Guard but these guys managed to hang on. I didn't take an Apothecary as I was at the limit of my points already but I don't see how they might be worth it. All in all, the extra wound was welcome for sure but other than that I didn't see a huge difference from a small expensive unit of Paladins to a large unit of Terminators. At least with a large unit of Terminators you have a scoring unit that has more attacks. -I dropped the Vindicare for this game as I think I proved his worth, but I wish I hadn't. -Even though I was severely out numbered at no time did I feel completely overwhelmed. My Purifiers did a great job handling troops with fire support from the GKSS units. I really felt confident in my units and I knew they could get the job done. -Shadow in the Warp was really more annoying than game changing. It shut down all of two powers and cost me a Keeper. Not as costly as I had thought when I began the game. Alright, more tomorrow! Great reports Resv! Just one question...Aren't tyrants psykers? If so, then they should be attacking at I1 due to our psyke-out grenades right? Just wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosPhoenix Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 @Resv Thanks for the report. How big was the Purifier Squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Great reports Resv!Just one question...Aren't tyrants psykers? If so, then they should be attacking at I1 due to our psyke-out grenades right? Just wondering... hahahaha! good point! Hive tyrants and the like would be at I1!, vulnerable to psyshock, and eaten by draigo! I can't remember that well, but I think the NFW daemonbane rule might effect psykers (not sure) too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glendor Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 How much do psybolts cost on dreads and SSGK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Tyrants are Psykers, and they were hitting at I1 against the GM and his Paladins. The Lashwhips from the Guard were the problem more than anything else. The Purifier squads were in eight member units, I would rather have had ten. This was because of I was really tight on points with the Paladin Squad and two NDKs. Quick additional note on Paladins: if they only had more options that regular terminators didn't I would be more inclined to take them. If you have the points to take a large unit of Paladins take a look at the cost and see how many regular Terminators you could take for the same price. I really wish they had more attacks or even Storm Shields. GK vs Eldar Dawn of War - KP I changed my list once again to try out a slightly different heavy support set up. I took only one Nemesis Dread Knight and two Rifleman Dreads (or Psy-Rifle Dreads), a smaller unit of regular Terminators, and I squeezed back in a Vindicare. Really, only slight changes were needed to support this list. I would have loved to have two full units of Purifiers but points are at a premium with Gray Knights. Highlights: -The Vindicare made two shots the entire game. The first blew up a Falcon and the second shot off the Invulnerable save on the Farseer that survived the Flacon blowing up. He was promptly shot up by Scatter Lasers from War Walkers. -My Psy-Rifle Dreads did an amazing job at slowing down or killing off transports during the entire game. They also accounted for quite a bit of dead infantry. -Using The Grand Strategy I gave my two units of Purifiers and the Nemesis Dread Knight counter attack. This proved to be incredibly powerful on the Purifiers when one unit was assaulted by Harlequins. Both units were hitting at the same initiative but even with the 5++ the Harlequins were torn up between Cleansing Flame (which was the only power I managed to get off the entire game!) and all of the Power Weapons. The Harle's held out and didn't use hit and run to get away, probably to avoid being shot up by all of the Storm Bolters. They were killed off to a man in the next round of combat but I did lose a number of Purifiers but the remainder really held out. -Reinforced Aegis managed to keep Doom off for the entire game. There is something very funny about a Farseer rolling his powers at Ld6. -The Nemesis Dread Knight did a much better job this game than any other I have played so far. I shunted him over to the farseer and used the Heavy Incinerator to cook the Xenos scum alive. With his invulnerable save gone he died right there and then due to instant death. The NDK was then assaulted by the seer council but managed to kill off all of them with his big hammer. -7kp to 3kp Gray Knights Notes: -Ruins of Warding claimed one of my two Keepers early in the game. After that I didn't bother with any psychic powers for the rest of the game except for Cleansing Flame. It was worth risking my second Keeper in the end. -The Dread Knight is much better with proper heavy support. The Psy-Rifle Dreads managed to keep fire off if the big lug long enough for him to move up and start attacking Vehicles. The Heavy Incinerator is my favorite of his ranged weapon options by far. -My GKSS provided excellent fire support when they could shoot their Psycannons as Heavy 4. The two cannons and storm bolters tore up a large unit of Storm Guardians before being assaulted by the remainder. -Psy-Rifle Dreads were brilliant against the light Eldar armor. I really think these guys are great for what they can do and that one extra strength really makes a difference! Next report in just a moment after I eat lunch. This is the Henchmen versus Orks game (spoiler: henchmen win). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Thanks for all of this, great read! Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Edit : I'm retarded and need way more coffee. :D Disregard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sothalor Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 How much do psybolts cost on dreads and SSGK? If I remember right, they cost 10 or 15 points on Strike Squads and 5 points on dreads. Yes, 5 points. A double twin-linked autocannon regular dreadnought with psybolts comes out to 135 points. Nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I'm really wanting to try a Dreadnought with TWL Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and Psyflame ammo. Just seems like an amusing thing to test out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 If you have the Independent Character special rule then you can join other units like infantry etc. If you don't have the rule you are a single unit and cannot join another unit, simple as. When you say hop on do you mean join the unit or get in a vehicle with another unit because he can do neither. EDIT: Doh, post I was responding to was edited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Alright, time for my final battle report of this weekend. Everyone at the event wanted the Henchment to go up against IG or SW, some list that we see a lot of that is considered very competitive. The Ork player though had been wanting a game against the "Glitter Boyz" and was really gracious about waiting until he got his chance, which we were glad to give him. GK Inquisition vs Orks Spear Head - Capture and Control Quick note: I know nothing about Orks and have no idea what their units can do. You will have to excuse me for being vague for this report. The Hench-4-Life list looked something like this: Coteaz 3x Servitors with Plasma Cannons 6x Psykers 2x Crusaders Chimera Hench Unit 1 10x Warriors 10x Melta Guns 2x Jokero Chimera Hench Unit 2 10x Warriors 10x Melta Guns 2x Jokero Chimera Hench Unit 3 10x Warriors 10x Plasma Guns 2x Jokero Chimera Hench Unit 4 6x Death Cult Assassins 4x Crusaders 2x Arco-Flagelants Chimera Hench Unit 5 6x Death Cult Assassins 4x Crusaders 2x Arco-Flagelants Chimera Nemesis Dread Knight H. Incinerator Daemon Hammer Dreadnought Auto Cannon arms Psybolt Ammo Dreadnought Auto Cannon arms Psybolt Ammo This may be way off in points as I don't know the exact make up of his army but I do know he had two Dreads and an NDK Highlights: -It was a blood bath, that is really all that can be said. The Ork Player didn't really have anything in the way of transports on the table except for a Battle Truck with Mega Nobz in it. This was blasted from the game the moment it got close to the Henchmen. -Coteaz's unit bombarded the large formations of Boyz relentlessly with all of their templates killing off tons of orks in the process. -The ones that did make it through were caught by the two CC units which were originally hiding in their Chimera but jumped out at the first chance to kill everything they could. -Some Jump Troops deep stuck behind the Inquisition army and got caught by a free round of shooting from Coteaz. -Final Score: 1 to 0 for the GK, never mind the fact that nearly all of the Orks were dead and a good portion of the Henchmen as well. Notes: -This was just a bloody battle and the IG player admitted that he had over thought his list. He didn't really care for his list at all at the end of the game but thought they could be very competitive with more experience. -Forget Psyker Battle Squads, Rogue Psykers are far more deadly and CHEAP too. -The Jokero was a mixed bag of awesome and lame at the same time. The random improved weapons table was pretty impressive though. One unit of Melta Gunners shooting out to 24 inches with Rending Meltas (yes, two rolls on the table and that is what he came up with, the most deadly guns ever). When it came to shooting though they were less exciting which is why I think you will almost always see Jokeros in pairs if not in larger numbers. -Death Cult Assassins are very scary on the charge with their 4 attacks each. However they are still only T3 which was a bit of a liability when they started to get shot up en mass. -Crusaders were a bit of a let down, they were their to absorb fire but against a horde army just couldn't keep up. Against Marines I could see them having a greater impact. I really don't know what to think of Henchmen. After this game it was apparent that they are very powerful but are very fragile at the same time. They can be taken in so many different combination that it is almost like having a second codex. I'm sure someone will create a template of the most optimum unit combination but that might really hamper how fun they can be. I also don't expect very many people to ever include a unit of Henchmen without also taking Coteaz, as the other inquisitors are kinda lame. I'm going to stick to my all Gray Knights builds for now, but don't be surprised if "Hybrid" lists become more and more popular. I'm planning on doing one final post about my impression of the codex over this weekend. If you have anything you want me to elaborate on or something that you are curious about don't hesitate to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 You can only take up to three special weapons with Warrior Acolytes, so you were using an illegal list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vutall Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Don't quote me 100%, but I think the list was illegal. If I remember correctly, Henchman can take up to a MAXIMUM of THREE special weapons per squad. Also, I think this might be due to poor writing, but I thin that the Coteaz Henchman-troops don't actually fulfill the 2 troop requirement, as well as there can be an unlimited amount of henchman squads as you have points since Henchman do not take up FOC slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Under Coteaz henchmen become troops, just like all the special characters that mess with the force organisation chart in every other army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 If they were just meant to become scoring, Coteaz would probably just make them scoring; the RAIer in me says the point of him making them troops is obviously to allow a potentially nonastartes-only army. The pragmatist says to hold off on a list like that until there's an FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Vutall is right. They become Troops but Troops that do not take up a slot. You still need to take at least 2 Grey Knight units to fill the 2 FOC slots. RAW that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMoon Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 nope im looking at his entry as i right this it says.... inquisitorial henchmen warbands are TROOPS choices in an army that includes inquisitor torquemada corteaz, and are not limited by the number of inquisitors in your army. so no you dont need grey knights at all he makes your warbands TROOPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I never said they weren't Troops. Troops that don't take up a slot are still Troops, but they still don't take up a slot. It is wishful thinking to see it otherwise. Where in Corteaz's rules does it say you ignore the fact that Henchmen do not take up a FOC slot? So because they become Troops they lose this? There is no way to have Troops that don't take up a FOC slot? Ohh wait, Summoned Daemons in the Chaos Space Marine codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vutall Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Indeed. Coteaz says they are troops. HOWEVER, in the HENCHMAN profile, it states they do not take up FOC slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph34r Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I never said they weren't Troops. Troops that don't take up a slot are still Troops, but they still don't take up a slot. It is wishful thinking to see it otherwise. Where in Corteaz's rules does it say you ignore the fact that Henchmen do not take up a FOC slot? So because they become Troops they lose this? There is no way to have Troops that don't take up a FOC slot? Ohh wait, Summoned Daemons in the Chaos Space Marine codex. The FOC requires only that you make choices, not fill slots. It's one of those things that never really comes up, and thus nobody really reads the FOC rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 You must have two Troops choices that do take up FOC slots. If your henchmen do not occupy space in the FOC, then logicially they cannot count at your minimum troops choices. no matter how many henchmen you have, your list is illegal until you have two squads of Grey Knights in your army to satisfy minimum requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 So it limits the top end and not the bottom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwitexansfan Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I love how rules lawyers through commonsense out the window. There is no point to the rule making henchman troops if you still have to take Grey Knights as your base troops. They become troops, the FOC has 6 troop slots. Therefore you can take up to 6 choices. If you really wanted to lawyer it I could consider throwing you two bonus if you take two inquisitors, but I think the fact they become troops caps it at 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Why making them Troops but not let them count towards the minimum? To capture objectives? Then why not just make them scoring? I think the intent of the rule is obvious, though I agree that they should FAQ a limit on how many you can take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I love how rules lawyers through commonsense out the window. There is no point to the rule making henchman troops if you still have to take Grey Knights as your base troops. They become troops, the FOC has 6 troop slots. Therefore you can take up to 6 choices. If you really wanted to lawyer it I could consider throwing you two bonus if you take two inquisitors, but I think the fact they become troops caps it at 6. Realistically you can take more than 6 as if they don't take up a slot and assuming what ph34r put is correct there is no upper or lower limit. It's gonna make one hell of an 'Ard Boyz list. As for the comment about it being no point, well that may be true but what makes sense and what the rules say aren't always the same. Crowe for example. I'm not really fussed about this as I'll never face an all Henchmen army where I am. Having just looked at the FOC section in the rules the codex doesn't seem to follow the terminology used in the rulebook which doesn't help the situation. It seems the codex has used gamer generated terms that realistically have no meaning when compared to the rulebook. There is no mention of slots in there which what the codex says they don't take up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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