Jeremiah2911 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Hey everyone, Just finished the HH book "A Thousand Sons", and to my surprise, it left me feeling sorry for the traitors. On another note, I just have a question. The Tutelaries that are referred to throughout the book, the Warp-entities that help them channel their psychic energy, were they just lesser Daemons all along? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 If you feel sorry for them now, just wait until you read Prospero Burns. My belief is that the Tutelaries were Deamonic Familiars under the sway of Tzeentch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 If you feel sorry for them now, just wait until you read Prospero Burns. Subjacative really. I've read Prospero Burns and I still feel sorry for the Sons. And yes the Tuelaries where daemons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 If you feel sorry for them now, just wait until you read Prospero Burns. Subjacative really. I've read Prospero Burns and I still feel sorry for the Sons. That was my point lol, after reading PB i felt more sorry for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Just finished the HH book "A Thousand Sons", and to my surprise, it left me feeling sorry for the traitors. Why exactly? Their own hubris caused their downfall. Magnus even admits this. On another note, I just have a question. The Tutelaries that are referred to throughout the book, the Warp-entities that help them channel their psychic energy, were they just lesser Daemons all along? Yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Why exactly? Their own hubris caused their downfall. Magnus even admits this. Hubris was a symptom not the cause. Thanks to Tzeentch's machinations the legion was doomed from the start. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah2911 Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yeah, although their downfall was ultimately Magnus' "fault", it was still pretty heart-wrenching because all along, Magnus intended nothing negative. From what I gather, he loved his father just as much if not more than the other primarchs did, and to see him destroyed so helplessly was just a little sad. Yes, they were prideful and arrogant, but for the most part, they were equally as fiercely loyal to the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Hubris was a symptom not the cause. Thanks to Tzeentch's machinations the legion was doomed from the start. Perhaps. But the book still shows how they casually disregarded every warning on their path to damnation, so Magnus and his legion are not completely blameless for their fall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah2911 Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm not saying they're not blameless, merely that, as Magnus even says to Ahriman towards the end, that everything he did was for the right reasons, which is [mostly] true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yeah, although their downfall was ultimately Magnus' "fault", it was still pretty heart-wrenching because all along, Magnus intended nothing negative. From what I gather, he loved his father just as much if not more than the other primarchs did, and to see him destroyed so helplessly was just a little sad. Yes, they were prideful and arrogant, but for the most part, they were equally as fiercely loyal to the Emperor. Yes, their fate was terribly tragic, but they walked right into it. I dont know if its just me being a heartless bastard, but I could not feel sorry for the man who wrecked one of the most important projects in human history to (amongst other things) prove a point. There were alternatives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm not saying they're not blameless, merely that, as Magnus even says to Ahriman towards the end, that everything he did was for the right reasons, which is [mostly] true. True. But as the saying goes "The road to hell is full of good intentions". Bruce Dickinson even made a song about the saying. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah2911 Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 True. If anything, "feeling-sorry" might not be the right words... more like I pity them. I do agree with Billuriye, though, that Tzeentch had been controlling Magnus all along, and that his hubris and arrogance were just outcroppings of his manipulation. Tzeentch even tells Magnus that in the book, I believe. Pity only because they were an arguably noble Legion, whose downfall was beyond their control. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKHaZZ13 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 You know wfull well that the wholen situation is engineered by a higher power especially if you've read prespero burns. Magnus pushes the bounderies...but only the influence of outside enteties on his legion are what push them over the edge. the had the potewntial...someone else opened the door for the to walk through Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2652898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yeah, although their downfall was ultimately Magnus' "fault", it was still pretty heart-wrenching because all along, Magnus intended nothing negative. From what I gather, he loved his father just as much if not more than the other primarchs did, and to see him destroyed so helplessly was just a little sad. Yes, they were prideful and arrogant, but for the most part, they were equally as fiercely loyal to the Emperor. Loyal, but not trusting. Had he trusted his father's judgment on sorcery rather than thinking himself more competent in the matter, Tzeench's threads of fate might not have worked out for chaos. Listen to daddy, children ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2653014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necris Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I have a question (I'm part way through the book) When was Nikea? I'm confused because throughout the start of the start of the book they are secretive about their powers then they suddenly become very open about them... I'm confused as to when Nikea happened or is it yet to happen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2653047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah2911 Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 If you're in the middle of A Thousand Sons, then you'll get to Nikaea before long. I didn't get the impression that they were "secretive" about their powers, per-se, but that when interacting with the Wolves, they didn't use them as much, since most Legions viewed their powers with disgust; especially the Space Wolves. Also, for the first good bit of the book, they are unable to use their powers due to the unnatural psychic atmosphere on Aghoru. Hope that helps! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2653055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidice Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I have a question with regards to "A Thousand Sons". I have just finished reading it and have started the first heretic, so I have not picked up prospero burns. What happened to the remembrancers (spelling?) that tried to leave the system right as the wolves re-entered normal space near prospero. Are they assumed dead or are they in Prospero Burns? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2653576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You sort of get the answers of the Remembrancers in Prospero Burns. It only briefly mentions them and what happens to them after that, who knows. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2653833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Got what they deserved - traitors. I have to say that all the explanation we've received about the Traitors through the series so far has actually had the effect of making me dislike the traitors more. World Eaters and Alpha Legion are notable exceptions, but I didn't mind Chaos before I started reading the HH, now I don't like them. Not that the books arent great, but I think seeing what the Imperium could have been like has turned me agin them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2653848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Got what they deserved - traitors. I have to say that all the explanation we've received about the Traitors through the series so far has actually had the effect of making me dislike the traitors more. World Eaters and Alpha Legion are notable exceptions, but I didn't mind Chaos before I started reading the HH, now I don't like them. Not that the books arent great, but I think seeing what the Imperium could have been like has turned me agin them. So World Eaters are more justifiable than Thousand Sons ? Oh boy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2653858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 No, but less self serving and hypocritical, IMO. They had a decent complaint and don't seem to have deluded themselves about what they were doing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2653864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah2911 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Aegnor, I can see your point about the Alpha Legion (are they still working for the greater good of the Imperium?!?!), but you lost me on the World Eaters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2654000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Me too, for Angron had problems with the Emperor since their first meeting. After all the Emperor of mankind could have helped his son instead of teleport him off world. Plus with his aggression chip he was even worse, Angron was naturally aggressive anyway so the chip made it worse. When Horus approached him he had not justified reason to go against the Emperor accept revenge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2654008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 They had a straightforward grievance where, as presente to date the Emperor genuinely did them wrong, and didn't try to delude themselves or others that they were somehow serving those who relied on them for protection or that they weren't selling out their species in order to make themselves feel important. I don't like what they did, but there is an element of honesty and consistency about why and how Angron betrayed the Emperor compared to the Thousand Sons or the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2655057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Angron wasn't that brazen about it. He only passively defied the Imperial dictate to stop the aggression implantations in the World Eaters, and he toed the line the rest of the time all the way until he had Horus' backing. There's a fair bit of duplicity in Angron's character, just like the grievances of the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords all had to be varying shades of subtle to avoid garnering too much suspicion (in the case of the Word Bearers, it had to be so subtle as to be undetectable to literal watchdogs). It's just that Angron also wasn't an idiot to directly challenge the Emperor when he knew it was a battle he couldn't win on his own; discretion is the better part of valor when you're out to win and not just to die meaningfully. If any of them were the obnoxiously un-subtle rebellion, it was the Night Lords, and even then they managed to hide it long enough to show their colors at Istvaan, and that was with a warrant out for their Primarch's arrest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/#findComment-2655176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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