Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 For me, Magnus's use of sorcery was damning, but not the worst thing he did. He was expressly told what to/not to do by the Emperor himself. He was commanded, by his father/military leader to quit with the crap he was doing. He decided to ignore that command, despite the warning, despite the initial promise he made. That right there is the entire issue. it isnt if he is right or wrong, but rather would he listen to commands. He has already ignored those as he saw fit. He got what he deserved. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 But using those techniques were the only way he could warn the Emperor, so you can see the dilemma. I think he did the right thing, going against orders for the greater good (Even though he was played like a fool by Chaos). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I would have to agree with Jelle. Indeed Magnus tampered with power he did not fully understand (power which the Emperor should have told Magnus more about), and indeed he did disobey the Emperor's words when he did his little ritual. This worked out against him and brought his fall to Chaos, but none the less he was trying to save his father and the Imperium of man by doing it. The smart decision would have been to talk to his father about the vision he received directly after Nikea, or when he knew for sure to send his entire legion to deal with Horus. Since reading the HH series several characters have seemed like nice individual whilst others have not. Magnus for instance seems way too arrogant, but then since reading this series one character seems to have come out the worse for me. The Emperor of Mankind has not been put in a good light in my oppinion and I put much of the blame of the HH on the Emperor's shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 But using those techniques were the only way he could warn the Emperor, so you can see the dilemma. He could have placed his Legion in a strategic position to oppose Horus and he could have travelled to Earth and then tell the Emperor. It was not the only thing he could do. I think he did the right thing, going against orders for the greater good (Even though he was played like a fool by Chaos). If we go by law he has mitigating circumstances due to his intentions, but the facts still prove he did the wrong thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Placing his Legion (The ones he loved above everything else) in front of an overwhelming force and then going to Terra himself would take way too long. He had other options, yes, but I feel that in his mind this was the fastest way. Not the best though, but there you go. I agree with Razhbad about the Emperor, if there is one person who seems to be more guilty than everyone else to all this it's him. I wonder what John Grammaticus saw in 'Legion', when he spoke to the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Placing his Legion (The ones he loved above everything else) in front of an overwhelming force and then going to Terra himself would take way too long. Then skip the assault on Horus and go to Terra immediately. He had other options, yes, but I feel that in his mind this was the fastest way.Not the best though, but there you go. So Magnus was borderline reckless, then. I agree with Razhbad about the Emperor, if there is one person who seems to be more guilty than everyone else to all this it's him. Lets recap: Horus - The Emperor gave him more then any other Primarch. Apparently Horus cant take the strain of running a galactic empire and doesnt understand the concept of "need to know". Mortarion - Was angry because the Emperor saved his life. Alpharius - Either believed in what xenos told him or joined because Horus was such a good orator. Where is the Emperor`s fault? Perturabo, Curze - They were unhappy with their positions, but didnt do anything about it. Where is the Emperor`s fault? Fulgrim - The Emperor gave his legion the right to wear His personal symbol. Got corrupted by a daemon in a sword. Lorgar - A religious fanatic who couldnt take a hint. The Emperor`s sole fault here was giving him a second chance. Magnus and Angron have been discussed on this thread so I wont repeat stuff already said. As seen, the Emperor`s main fault was believeing in his sons too much. The Chaos gods are more responsible for the heresy then anyone else so it a bit strange to me how people like to pin everything on the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Horus - The Emperor gave him more then any other Primarch. Apparently Horus cant take the strain of running a galactic empire and doesnt understand the concept of "need to know". Mortarion - Was angry because the Emperor saved his life. Alpharius - Either believed in what xenos told him or joined because Horus was such a good orator. Where is the Emperor`s fault? Perturabo, Curze - They were unhappy with their positions, but didnt do anything about it. Where is the Emperor`s fault? Fulgrim - The Emperor gave his legion the right to wear His personal symbol. Got corrupted by a daemon in a sword. Lorgar - A religious fanatic who couldnt take a hint. The Emperor`s sole fault here was giving him a second chance. Magnus and Angron have been discussed on this thread so I wont repeat stuff already said. As seen, the Emperor`s main fault was believeing in his sons too much. The Chaos gods are more responsible for the heresy then anyone else so it a bit strange to me how people like to pin everything on the Emperor. Ok well Horus main problems lay within himself. His own pride and ambition got to him and it all came from the sense of loss he felt for the Emperor leaving the great crusade. Now the Emperor could have helped his son more, but all in all Horus is mainly to blame for his own fall. Mortarion's main beef with the Emperor was not that his father saved his life it was that the Emperor represented the Tyrants he hated. And to be fair the Emperor does, the slaughter he causes in his Great Crusade is enough to make the Tyrants from our time want to be sick. Alpharius is how you say it and i totally agree with that. Peterabo like you say kept on getting his position and stuff. He was kept in seige works and it never sunk into his head that the Emperor did it because there was none better. Curze on the other hand had initially been allowed to unleash his own war onto worlds. The Emperor did not care for the slaughter done in his name this is hinted at in Legion and the Last Church. But still Terra tried to sanction the Night Lords, a clear betrayal to Curze and then an Assasin attempted to kill him. Now Konrad assumed due to his visions that this Assassin was sent by the Emperor it may not have been. Fulgrim was a weakling and well you mentioned what happened to him. Lorgar now you say he could not take a hint. Yet as stated in the First Heretic the Emperor took over a hundred years to tell take action on his sons beliefs. There were no hints from his father, nothing to say that his son was wrong. The only indication was that he had publically said the words he was not a god, but yet he stilll let his son preach his name for years. Naturally Lorgar thought he was allowed to do it because he was right. So when the Emperor chastised him it must of hurt, he found out his life was a lie that his father had let him preach a false religeon amongst the stars for his life, is it no wonder that he turned his back on the Emperor. Angron, well they had a stained relationship from the start. Who knows if it could have ever been addressed. Magnus, just like others and myself have stated this was a difficult one. The Emperor showed Magnus the wonders of the Imperium but then says stay away it is really dangerous stuff, now watch me do this cool warp stuff. For Magnus he witnessed his fathers God like power derived from the warp and yet was told not to go there because it was dangerous. Magnus went there and believed he could handle it, turns out he could not. Now the Emperor never explained to Magnus why it was dangerous, he never informed him about the 4 Chaos Gods, Sorcery or Deamons. Had Magnus known the fall truth would things be different. If the Emperor had been more informative to his sons from the moment he met them then the entire HH could have been avoided, now the Emperor did not. As such his own actions led to the HH, now the question is why. It could mean that the Emperor is a cold hearted man who did not care for his sons, it could be that he was not as smart as people believed and his own ignorance was his fall or my own belief is that just maybe his 9 traitorous sons were doing exactly what he wanted them to, that the HH itself was part of his plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Not reckless, but desperate. And yes, it's extremely cruel to show a man of Magnus' power the Warp and what can be done with it, only to tell him to not use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Since reading the HH series several characters have seemed like nice individual whilst others have not. Magnus for instance seems way too arrogant, but then since reading this series one character seems to have come out the worse for me. The Emperor of Mankind has not been put in a good light in my oppinion and I put much of the blame of the HH on the Emperor's shoulders. Very much agree with this. The HH series is making me think of the Emperor as an incredibly powerful idiot, which is hardly how I think the authors wanted us to see him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 As seen, the Emperor`s main fault was believeing in his sons too much. The Chaos gods are more responsible for the heresy then anyone else so it a bit strange to me how people like to pin everything on the Emperor. No, his main fault is not trusting his sons. All the Legions were disheartened when the Emperor quit the Great Crusade to return to Terra but he never thought to explain, even to the Primarchs, why he was doing it. Despite being a psyker and having another psyker as his right-hand man, despite using psykers to navigate the warp and allowing Librarium within the Legions, he forbade the use of psychic powers, even to his own sons, and never explained why. He denied his own divinity but never told anyone about the Ruinous Powers. He had great plans for Magnus but, even after publicly bollocking him, still didn't take him aside and say "Listen son, I know what I've said seems harsh but this is what I've got in mind..". He completely misjusdged Lorgar. The list goes on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 For me, Magnus's use of sorcery was damning, but not the worst thing he did. He was expressly told what to/not to do by the Emperor himself. He was commanded, by his father/military leader to quit with the crap he was doing. He decided to ignore that command, despite the warning, despite the initial promise he made. That right there is the entire issue. it isnt if he is right or wrong, but rather would he listen to commands. He has already ignored those as he saw fit. He got what he deserved. WLK Totally disagree..... telling the 1000 sons to quit playing at sorcery is like telling Angron to stop being so violent! Never gonna happen..... the Sons were predestined to be the best psychicaly. I think the Emperor should have let Magnus in on the truth a bit more and trusted him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Then skip the assault on Horus and go to Terra immediately. It would take too long. Warp travel is notoriously slow. Something as big as Horus going traitor would have to be reported as soon as possible. So Magnus was borderline reckless, then. Hardly. Based off his experiances he would have had little reason to think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Mortarion's main beef with the Emperor was not that his father saved his life it was that the Emperor represented the Tyrants he hated. And to be fair the Emperor does, the slaughter he causes in his Great Crusade is enough to make the Tyrants from our time want to be sick. Er... wasnt death the entire theme of the Death Guard? I would think Mortarion is the last person (behind Angron) to be taken back by slaughter. Lorgar now you say he could not take a hint. Yet as stated in the First Heretic the Emperor took over a hundred years to tell take action on his sons beliefs. There were no hints from his father, nothing to say that his son was wrong. The only indication was that he had publically said the words he was not a god, but yet he stilll let his son preach his name for years. Naturally Lorgar thought he was allowed to do it because he was right. So when the Emperor chastised him it must of hurt, he found out his life was a lie that his father had let him preach a false religeon amongst the stars for his life, is it no wonder that he turned his back on the Emperor. This means Lorgar only heard what he wanted to hear. So the Emperor publicly states he is not a God, gives the Imperial truth (which also says bad things about gods) for His sons to spread, and Lorgar is the only one that misses the point? That discussion Lorgar and the Emperor have in TFH clearly indicates it was not the first time they talked about the subject. Lorgar`s biggest problem is his religious upbringing. Magnus, just like others and myself have stated this was a difficult one. The Emperor showed Magnus the wonders of the Imperium but then says stay away it is really dangerous stuff, now watch me do this cool warp stuff. For Magnus he witnessed his fathers God like power derived from the warp and yet was told not to go there because it was dangerous. Magnus went there and believed he could handle it, turns out he could not. Now the Emperor never explained to Magnus why it was dangerous, he never informed him about the 4 Chaos Gods, Sorcery or Deamons. Had Magnus known the fall truth would things be different. Except ATS states the Emperor showed the horrors of the warp to Magnus. He didnt show him everything, but Magnus remembers that he saw things that would break most people`s minds. Magnus knew the dangers of the warp. No, his main fault is not trusting his sons. All the Legions were disheartened when the Emperor quit the Great Crusade to return to Terra but he never thought to explain, even to the Primarchs, why he was doing it. Did he really have to? The Emperor had enough faith in his sons that they could operate without him, and you are forgetting that he is the leader of Mankind. He has an empire to maintain, not just a war to fight. Are the primarchs really that dependant on him? Despite being a psyker and having another psyker as his right-hand man, despite using psykers to navigate the warp and allowing Librarium within the Legions, he forbade the use of psychic powers, even to his own sons, and never explained why. A leader does not have to explain every decision he makes to his subordinates. Besides, he did explain his ruling. It was two pages long in ATS (354.-355.) He denied his own divinity but never told anyone about the Ruinous Powers. Wouldnt that have undermined everything he was trying to achieve with denying the divine? "There are no gods! Except the ones in the warp, that is. And the one I have chained on Mars. And his fellows around the galaxy." Besides, the Primarchs did know about the creatures from the warp. They fought them many times during the crusade. He had great plans for Magnus but, even after publicly bollocking him, still didn't take him aside and say "Listen son, I know what I've said seems harsh but this is what I've got in mind..". He completely misjusdged Lorgar. Lorgar has been covered earlier on this thread. Again, he believed Magnus was loyal enough not to do anything stupid. He overestimated him. You could say the Emperor has poor parenting skills, but he is not stupid or an idiot. He believed his sons were capable and mature enough not to need him holding their hands. He assumed these centuries old superhumans wouldnt act like adolescents. As far as we have seen, the Emperor`s actions are the actions of a ruler, not a father, and most of the defects the Primarchs have are direct results of their time before they met Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 It would take too long. Warp travel is notoriously slow. Something as big as Horus going traitor would have to be reported as soon as possible. It took Horus seven years to reach Terra, and the Eisenstein first reported the treason months after Istvaan III happened. Besides, Magnus could have deployed the Thousand Sons en masse to Terra, further re-inforcing the Loyalist battle-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 It took Horus seven years to reach Terra, and the Eisenstein first reported the treason months after Istvaan III happened. That just renforces my point. You can't trust something like that to slow warp travel. Besides, Magnus could have deployed the Thousand Sons en masse to Terra, further re-inforcing the Loyalist battle-line. Again, see above quote. Magnus knew Horus would turn traitor, but he had no idea what Horus would do next. From his point of view Horus may have struck at Terra, or have done something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 so after 7 whole years of NO reports, thats when the battle for Terra took place 0_0 Yeesh talk about time to set up your defences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 That just renforces my point. You can't trust something like that to slow warp travel. Again, see above quote. Magnus knew Horus would turn traitor, but he had no idea what Horus would do next. From his point of view Horus may have struck at Terra, or have done something else. Still, this just proves it was the fastest route, not the only one. But it was the only one where he would be in direct violation of the oath he took. This just proves yet again Magnus had good intentions, but that does not absolve him of the mess he caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Still, this just proves it was the fastest route, not the only one. That was my point. EDIT: But it was the only one where he would be in direct violation of the oath he took. This just proves yet again Magnus had good intentions, but that does not absolve him of the mess he caused. Except that doesn't really factor it in for me at all. Magnus logically speaking, had no idea of the webway experiment the Emperor had been conducting. Wheter or not he is absoluted is really more your opinion than any fact. We know the Emperor is not perfect or infallible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 tiberium has more or less said what i would have said. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Wouldnt that have undermined everything he was trying to achieve with denying the divine? "There are no gods! Except the ones in the warp, that is. And the one I have chained on Mars. And his fellows around the galaxy." Besides, the Primarchs did know about the creatures from the warp. They fought them many times during the crusade. Nope.... wrong the primarchs were not aware of the true nature of warp creatures. They thought them to be 'warp lifeforms'..... xenos from the warp - they didnt know that they were manifestations of the ruinous powers given 'life'. I believe Horus is quoted as much in one of the books.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Wouldnt that have undermined everything he was trying to achieve with denying the divine? "There are no gods! Except the ones in the warp, that is. And the one I have chained on Mars. And his fellows around the galaxy." Besides, the Primarchs did know about the creatures from the warp. They fought them many times during the crusade. Nope.... wrong the primarchs were not aware of the true nature of warp creatures. They thought them to be 'warp lifeforms'..... xenos from the warp - they didnt know that they were manifestations of the ruinous powers given 'life'. I believe Horus is quoted as much in one of the books.. well, Horus tells Loken that daemons are just a xeno life form that exists in the Warp, but i do wonder personally if he was just placating Loken without telling him the truth. and i know for a fact that Magnus knew of the Warp's various denizens, just thought himself superior. Russ also knew of the warp's effects on people, and had his own method of dealing with it. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Except that doesn't really factor it in for me at all. Magnus logically speaking, had no idea of the webway experiment the Emperor had been conducting. And? He directly violated his oath to the Emperor he took at Nikaea. He knew that, and believed his info would validate his usage of warp powers. Wheter or not he is absoluted is really more your opinion than any fact. Really? Take any legal system and find me where it says good intentions absolve you of your crime. We know the Emperor is not perfect or infallible. Yes, but he cant be completely blamed for the Heresy. Nope.... wrong the primarchs were not aware of the true nature of warp creatures. They thought them to be 'warp lifeforms'..... xenos from the warp - they didnt know that they were manifestations of the ruinous powers given 'life'. I believe Horus is quoted as much in one of the books.. *sigh* That was what I was talking about. The Primarchs fought the warp creatures throuought the Crusade, and knew about their danger, if not their nature. Mortarion based his accusation on Nikaea on one such battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Except that doesn't really factor it in for me at all. Magnus logically speaking, had no idea of the webway experiment the Emperor had been conducting. And? He directly violated his oath to the Emperor he took at Nikaea. He knew that, and believed his info would validate his usage of warp energy. ....and? Wheter or not he is absoluted is really more your opinion than any fact. Really? Take any legal system and find me where it says good intentions absolve you of your crime. Why exactly should we apply it at all? The Emperor's ruling at Nikea itself was wrong. You make the mistake of assuming that all legal systems are perfect and absolute. Truthfully the defnition of what is legal and what is not has changed over history itself. Plus not all legal system are fair and just. Wheter Magnus is guilty of said crime is rather petty and irrelvent when looking at the bigger picture. Yes, but he cant be blamed completely for the Heresy. I never blamed him completely. I an referring to his flawed descision at Nikea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Again, sorecery after nikea wasnt the crime. DISOBEYING a direct order from your "father" and the head of the government you claim to be loyal to is. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 ....and? He knowingly broke a direct order from the Emperor. And you dont see this as relevant? Why exactly should we apply it at all? Because there is such a thing as objective guilt and subjective guilt. The Emperor's ruling at Nikea itself was wrong. That doesnt mean the ruling of the Master of Mankind can just be broken at a whim with no consequences. You make the mistake of assuming that all legal systems are perfect and absolute. Truthfully the defnition of what is legal and what is not has changed over history itself. Plus not all legal system are fair and just. You are raising a strawman. Wheter Magnus is guilty of said crime is rather petty and irrelvent when looking at the bigger picture. Really? That petty and irrelevant crime resulted in the destruction of the webway project. Magnus is guilty both objectively and subjectively for disobeying the Emperor`s decree, and he is guilty only objectively for the destruction of the webway project. But he is still guilty for both actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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