Clewz Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Guessing thats fictional spartacus as the one in real history could of had freedom but instead chose to be cocky and greedy by rampaging back down through italia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Guessing thats fictional spartacus as the one in real history could of had freedom but instead chose to be cocky and greedy by rampaging back down through italia What? The Third servile war ended with a battle where the slave army was annihilated, along with Spartacus, at the hands of Crassus and his forces. There is nothing fictional about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Angron was robbed of a victory, which isn't something someone who is suicidal would have cared anything about, but since Angron wasn't suicidal, then he cared about the color of the twist. That's what mattered to him, that the army he had led to victory time and again was led to victory one more time. . .except it wasn't. His army fought and died without him, when it could have fought and lived with him. Wanting to die in battle does not make one suicidal. Its the "go out in a blaze of glory" mentality, not the "slit my wrists" mentality. Spartacus went to that last battle hoping he would win and survive, but not expecting it. He died tyring to reach Crassus, but a Centurion killed him before he could get there. I would just like to note that there is a difference between wanting to die in battle and fighting in a battle you expect you will lose. Now unrelated to the quote above... Now It might be true that Magnus was arrogant and full of hubris and so on and so forth... However if this is true he is at best only the second most arrogant character in the 40K universe with the Emperor beating the socks off him in that department. Lets look at Magnus as the child who grew up being able to do almost anything, understand things even the wisest old man did not understand... He then comes into contact with his 'father' a man who thinks it is his place to rule a galaxy spanning empire of man and destroy 'Gods' that have destroyed empires far more powerful than mans... Is it any surprise with such an upbringing that Magnus would be arrogant? Also imagine how many times his brothers would have told him he is wrong because they did not understand or because the feared what he was doing, when in fact Magnus had been right. If you are told you are wrong when you are right or told you can't do things when you can you eventually start to ignore the warnings, you may even ignore the voices in your head. Yes Magnus was manipulated by the warp all along but if he hadn't been failed by his 'family' (Emperor/Primarchs) and been betrayed by their fear and arrogance Magnus could have been saved from his fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I would just like to note that there is a difference between wanting to die in battle and fighting in a battle you expect you will lose. And here is the difference between Angron and Spartacus. Now It might be true that Magnus was arrogant and full of hubris and so on and so forth... However if this is true he is at best only the second most arrogant character in the 40K universe with the Emperor beating the socks off him in that department. Lets look at Magnus as the child who grew up being able to do almost anything, understand things even the wisest old man did not understand... He then comes into contact with his 'father' a man who thinks it is his place to rule a galaxy spanning empire of man and destroy 'Gods' that have destroyed empires far more powerful than mans... Is it any surprise with such an upbringing that Magnus would be arrogant? Magnus did not know about the god-destroying part. And if the Emperor who is so arrogant tells Magnus there are some lines he mustn`t cross and Magnus crosses them anyway, who is more arrogant? How many times did Magnus say "there is nothing I cant do" in the book? Yes Magnus was manipulated by the warp all along but if he hadn't been failed by his 'family' (Emperor/Primarchs) and been betrayed by their fear and arrogance Magnus could have been saved from his fate. A Thousand Sons doesnt show this. It shows a man who thinks he knows better then everyone, even the man he admired the most (The Emperor), and disregards every warning sign along the way to damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Guessing thats fictional spartacus as the one in real history could of had freedom but instead chose to be cocky and greedy by rampaging back down through italia What? The Third servile war ended with a battle where the slave army was annihilated, along with Spartacus, at the hands of Crassus and his forces. There is nothing fictional about this. ok from my studies the slave armies were moving north towards the alps and then defeated a legion sent there to block them. They could of easily carried on north but they decided to head back down south on a rampage through italia which then resulted in that final battle. It all begs the question why to go back into the lions den. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 ok from my studies the slave armies were moving north towards the alps and then defeated a legion sent there to block them. They could of easily carried on north but they decided to head back down south on a rampage through italia which then resulted in that final battle. It all begs the question why to go back into the lions den. That isnt the point. The point is that Spartacus went into that final battle expecting to die, and he did it anyway. The decisions he made before are irrelevant to this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Well if my point is irrelevant so is that. There is no historical reference as to his thoughts and feelings. Its not even known what actually happened to him. Its just assumed he was killed in the battle. Its possible he escaped in the rout or he was one of the ones captured and then crucified. We just don't know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 There is no historical reference as to his thoughts and feelings. Yes there is. Appian states he wanted to sack Rome after defeating the legions in Northern Italy, but decided not to in the last minute while Plutarch states that Crassus omitted his march on Rome. Its not even known what actually happened to him. Its just assumed he was killed in the battle. Its possible he escaped in the rout or he was one of the ones captured and then crucified. We just don't know Be that as it may, Angron is an idealised version of Spartacus. Appian wrote Spartacus perished with his army, and I think that would have made a more noble end then running away. So Angron would have definately not ran away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Be that as it may, Angron is an idealised version of Spartacus. Appian wrote Spartacus perished with his army, and I think that would have made a more noble end then running away. So Angron would have definately not ran away. I think Angron would only have allowed himself to be killed to spite his foe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Magnus did not know about the god-destroying part. And if the Emperor who is so arrogant tells Magnus there are some lines he mustn`t cross and Magnus crosses them anyway, who is more arrogant? How many times did Magnus say "there is nothing I cant do" in the book? My point has nothing to do with what Magnus knew but with the attitude of the Emperor. Who is the Emperor to tell Magnus what he can and cannot do? Just to tell someone to stop something and expect them to do it without reason is arrogance. However from what I've seen the Emperor never tells Magnus anywhere near the truth about the dangers of the warp, he never tells Magnus why it is important he stops. If Magnus was really arrogant he wouldn't have done his studies behind the Emperors back he would have done it in his face. A Thousand Sons doesnt show this. It shows a man who thinks he knows better then everyone, even the man he admired the most (The Emperor), and disregards every warning sign along the way to damnation. Well ObviouslyA Thousand sons doesn't show what didn't happen. I'm talking about what could have been if things had gone another way. I'm pretty sure a number of examples exist withing the book where his brothers are not very nice about him or his sorcerers ways. Oh I'm not saying all of them just some and I've already mentioned part of the Emperors arrogance above so I do not feel that needs to be repeated or expanded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 So it isnt selflessness anymore? Now its martial pride? Selflessness was your word, not mine. The story is simple. The Emperor didnt order Scotty to beam Angron out without a word. He came down to meet him first. Angron had a chance to do something similar to what Russ did and say "if you will fight by my side, I will serve you". But he didnt. He was willing to go ahead with his plan that would have probably killed most of his army. The story isn't that simple. The Emperor met Angron, offered him freedom, Angron said no (or at least, not yet), then the Emperor snatched him up anyway. Angron didn't ask the Emperor for help because he didn't need the Emperor's help. Angron was undefeated in battle, as was the army he'd forged out of his slave gladiator brethren. There was no evidence whatsoever that Angron would have lost that battle, much less died in it. it were purely the Emperor's presumption that forced the issue. There's a world of difference between being prepared to die and expecting to die. Angron, I posit, did not have any expectation of dying, because he had every expectation he was going to win that battle. He very well may have been wrong, but we'll never know that any more than he will. ;) Wanting to die in battle does not make one suicidal. Its the "go out in a blaze of glory" mentality, not the "slit my wrists" mentality. Spartacus went to that last battle hoping he would win and survive, but not expecting it. He died tyring to reach Crassus, but a Centurion killed him before he could get there. The parallel between Angron and Spartacus, I don't dispute at all, it's glaringly obvious and that fluff has remained established. The difference was that Spartacus was a man who made a tactical error and Crassus capitalized on it. Angron was not a man and had made no such error, his fate wasn't nearly so cut and dry. We aren't talking about a totally mindless machine of violence with no foresight (yet); Angron even after his implantations was fully capable of following orders, forging an army, and leading it to victory time and again. Personally, I can't wait until he gets his own book, I think it will surprise even me at what he was capable of before he succumbed to Chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 My point has nothing to do with what Magnus knew but with the attitude of the Emperor. Who is the Emperor to tell Magnus what he can and cannot do? Just to tell someone to stop something and expect them to do it without reason is arrogance. And this is precisely the lack of context I referred to earlier in this thread. Who is the Emperor? He is at that point the 38000 year old genius possessed of unparalleled intellect, knowledge, and psychic talent who has steered humanity more or less successfully on a tight rope across extinction. He's the one who created Magnus and his brothers. He's the one who dragged humanity out of the Age of Strife to the point where they rule the galaxy. The guy has a reasonable track record that proves that he knows what he's doing and that his plans tend to work out well for the species, overall. Everyone in 30K knows this, not as a para of fluff they've read once, but as a basic tenet of their existence. Yeah, there are people he's made enemies of along the way, but his plans to date have always benefitted the species as a whole. Magnus knows this. He also knows his father understands the warp better than him, and has thousands of years more experience that him in that domain. But is his pride and unwillingness to admit he'd found a problem he couldn't solve (fleshchange) and had therefore cheated by literally making a deal with the devil, he decides to just ignore all of that. Given his achievements and unique perspective, I think the Emperor is entitled to make a lay down a ruling, even if he doesn't explain his full reasoning, and expect it to be obeyed by those who have professed to love him and pledged their loyalty and obedience to him. He certainly probably had enough faith in his sons not to expect these centuries old geniuses to act like sulky teenagers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 My point has nothing to do with what Magnus knew but with the attitude of the Emperor. Who is the Emperor to tell Magnus what he can and cannot do? Both his father and his liege lord. Just to tell someone to stop something and expect them to do it without reason is arrogance. No. Its called a command. However from what I've seen the Emperor never tells Magnus anywhere near the truth about the dangers of the warp, he never tells Magnus why it is important he stops. Magnus himself remembers how the Emperor showed him some very nasty things in the warp - things that would break most people`s minds. He of all people didnt need a 804 page essay on the dangers of the warp. If Magnus was really arrogant he wouldn't have done his studies behind the Emperors back he would have done it in his face. No, if Magnus was stupid he would have done it in the Emperor`s face rather then behind his back. Magnus believed he knew better then everyone about what needed to be done. And screwed up un the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I totally, 100% agree with Aegnor. I don't understand how one can fault the Emperor given his track record, experiences, and authority. On Angron, I hope there's more to the Emperor's decision to pluck him from the battle than "oh he could have died". Hopefully a future book on the matter will clear it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 My point has nothing to do with what Magnus knew but with the attitude of the Emperor. Who is the Emperor to tell Magnus what he can and cannot do? Both his father and his liege lord. Just to tell someone to stop something and expect them to do it without reason is arrogance. No. Its called a command. However from what I've seen the Emperor never tells Magnus anywhere near the truth about the dangers of the warp, he never tells Magnus why it is important he stops. Magnus himself remembers how the Emperor showed him some very nasty things in the warp - things that would break most people`s minds. He of all people didnt need a 804 page essay on the dangers of the warp. If Magnus was really arrogant he wouldn't have done his studies behind the Emperors back he would have done it in his face. No, if Magnus was stupid he would have done it in the Emperor`s face rather then behind his back. Magnus believed he knew better then everyone about what needed to be done. And screwed up un the process. Ah so you if your father told you kill yourself you would? If your boss (I don't know that you have one but very few people have a liege) told you to kill yourself would you? I don't doubt the emperor showed him some things but not enough... giving someone a few nuclear secrets can be far more dangerous than giving them everything... Why would Magnus be stupid? If he had that much belief in himself it wouldn't be a problem and so from his point of view it wouldn't be stupid. The funny thing is Magnus did know better than almost everyone... about some things... more than the Emperor on some subjects at any rate... Unless everything we have been told is a lie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The funny thing is Magnus did know better than almost everyone... about some things... more than the Emperor on some subjects at any rate... Unless everything we have been told is a lie... You must be a true follower of Tzeench if you think everything we have been told is a lie :rolleyes: I don't think Magnus really knew more than the big E other than the whole selling his soul to Tzeench thing. Perhaps the Emperor really did know about it, or could sense something was amiss... we cant know for sure. Also, the Emperor never told Magnus to kill himself. He told him to stop using sorcery. It's like a father telling a child "dont touch a hot stove". Magnus did it anyway because he thought he knew better. The only person to blame for Magnus's downfall is Magnus himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Ah so you if your father told you kill yourself you would? If your boss (I don't know that you have one but very few people have a liege) told you to kill yourself would you? :rolleyes: The Emperor never asked Magnus to kill himself. The Emperor gave him a few instructions and orders that were well within his power and authority to say. Magnus`s example is more like your boss telling you not to light fires near the petrol tanks and you do it because you believe your skill with fire is so high there is no chance something bad will happen. And then it backfires right in your face. I don't doubt the emperor showed him some things but not enough... giving someone a few nuclear secrets can be far more dangerous than giving them everything... And what would have been enough? Introduction to the Chaos Gods in alphabetic order? The Emperor showed Magnus the line and the bad things that can happen if he crosses the line. And the Emperor had enough faith in him not to cross it. Magnus himself in the book admits he went too far. Hell, I think the Emperor`s biggest flaw could be that he believed in his sons too much. Some of them really needed imposed restraint. Why would Magnus be stupid? If he had that much belief in himself it wouldn't be a problem and so from his point of view it wouldn't be stupid. Why Magnus didnt work in public and why he hid his works are described in the book. The funny thing is Magnus did know better than almost everyone... about some things... more than the Emperor on some subjects at any rate... Unless everything we have been told is a lie... In the book, Magnus believes he knows better and is proven utterly wrong by the end of it, so the above isnt true. Magnus was damned by his own hubris, not by any mistreatment he got from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Selflessness was your word, not mine. Well, you said Angron`s betrayal was selfless. To me it really looks like he just has some hurt pride. The story isn't that simple. The Emperor met Angron, offered him freedom, Angron said no (or at least, not yet), then the Emperor snatched him up anyway. Angron didn't ask the Emperor for help because he didn't need the Emperor's help. Angron was undefeated in battle, as was the army he'd forged out of his slave gladiator brethren. There was no evidence whatsoever that Angron would have lost that battle, much less died in it. it were purely the Emperor's presumption that forced the issue. There's a world of difference between being prepared to die and expecting to die. Angron, I posit, did not have any expectation of dying, because he had every expectation he was going to win that battle. He very well may have been wrong, but we'll never know that any more than he will. :) Still, Angron declined everything the Emperor offered him, including his own Legion. If Angron had simply said yes or conditioned his service to the Emperor, things would have gonea a whole lot differently. This tells me Angron was too proud to accept help and wanted to achieve his goal himself (weather it was victory or a glorios death) and would have had his pride equally hurt if the Emperor had landed with his Custodes and fried the slaver`s army with laser beams from his eyes. Angron would still have seen this as the Emperor stealing his victory/glorious death. This paints Angron as fairly selfish, as he was more concerned with his pride then the lives of his fellow slaves. And the Emperor`s presumption isnt something to be discarded lightly. He arguably knows more about the Primarchs physiology then they do, so if he believed Angron could die in the battle, then there is a good chance that could have happened. Sure, just beaming him out wasnt the best way to handle this, but I believe Angron can rightfully be blaimed (at least partially) for his own fall. The parallel between Angron and Spartacus, I don't dispute at all, it's glaringly obvious and that fluff has remained established. The difference was that Spartacus was a man who made a tactical error and Crassus capitalized on it. Angron was not a man and had made no such error, his fate wasn't nearly so cut and dry. We aren't talking about a totally mindless machine of violence with no foresight (yet); Angron even after his implantations was fully capable of following orders, forging an army, and leading it to victory time and again. Personally, I can't wait until he gets his own book, I think it will surprise even me at what he was capable of before he succumbed to Chaos. The bolded part I can agree with 100%, since we really dont know enough about him and some other Primarchs. Until we do get more info, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Also, the Emperor never told Magnus to kill himself. He told him to stop using sorcery. It's like a father telling a child "dont touch a hot stove". Magnus did it anyway because he thought he knew better. The only person to blame for Magnus's downfall is Magnus himself. Actually the command was not to use ''psychic powers'' and it applied to everybody in the Astartes Legions. They changed it from the Index Astartes interpretaion to something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Also, the Emperor never told Magnus to kill himself. He told him to stop using sorcery. It's like a father telling a child "dont touch a hot stove". Magnus did it anyway because he thought he knew better. The only person to blame for Magnus's downfall is Magnus himself. Actually the command was not to use ''psychic powers'' and it applied to everybody in the Astartes Legions. They changed it from the Index Astartes interpretaion to something else. I stand corrected in this regard. I guess my analogy changes from "dont touch a hot stove" to "dont go near a hot stove". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Or "don't set fire to things with matches" to "don't play with matches". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Honestly the only bits of sorcery when they where loyal that I read in the book where the Tutelaries and the ritual to send Magnus's message. The rest of the stuff is by modern day Librarians. Throwing around blasts of fire? It's done by modern Librarians Precognition? Done by Tigurius. Telekinesis? Done with multiple different Librarians. Biomancy? You can do that in Dark Heresy. Telepathy? Done quite often by Imperial psykers in the 41st millenium. Most of what the Thousand Sons did was pretty much identical to modern day Librarians. Only the tutelaries and the ritual to send Magnus would be what I call sorcery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Yeah, just the daemonic familiars, pacts with daemons, and rituals. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ornestahl Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Honestly the only bits of sorcery when they where loyal that I read in the book where the Tutelaries and the ritual to send Magnus's message. The rest of the stuff is by modern day Librarians. Throwing around blasts of fire? It's done by modern Librarians Precognition? Done by Tigurius. Telekinesis? Done with multiple different Librarians. Biomancy? You can do that in Dark Heresy. Telepathy? Done quite often by Imperial psykers in the 41st millenium. Most of what the Thousand Sons did was pretty much identical to modern day Librarians. Only the tutelaries and the ritual to send Magnus would be what I call sorcery. Well Librarians of the 41st millenium is still a violation of the ruling of Nikea, as it pertains to the setting of the HH. It dosnt matter that the council of terra with papa smurf sometime after the heresy's ending decided to reinstante the librarium, the cat was out of the box, demons exists in the open by that time, so weapons to deal with the warp was needed. So for this setting he was using sorcery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Yeah, just the daemonic familiars, pacts with daemons, and rituals. :D Which, when looking at the overall culture and doctrine of the Sons, was't really that much. Remmeber, most of the debate ast Nikea was over their powers. Mortarion even critcised them not for their Tutelaries but for their powers. Well Librarians of the 41st millenium is still a violation of the ruling of Nikea, as it pertains to the setting of the HH. It dosnt matter that the council of terra with papa smurf sometime after the heresy's ending decided to reinstante the librarium, the cat was out of the box, demons exists in the open by that time, so weapons to deal with the warp was needed. Except we don't know how Nikea got overturned. So for this setting he was using sorcery. Except I'm not looking it as a setting, but as a history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.