A Thousand Sons

[Razhbad]

It seems that all the traitor Primarchs had Daddy issues

[Aegnor]

They were honest to themselves though, whereas my view of even the Word Bearers, let alone the Tsons, is that they were ultimately rationalizing what they felt like doing by telling themselves it was for some admirable purpose.

 

It's not the sneakiness I object to, it's the self-deception/hypocrisy. I'd amend my list to say that in this regard, from what we've seen to date, I don't mind the Iron Warriors or Night Lords either in this regard.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

They were honest to themselves though, whereas my view of even the Word Bearers, let alone the Tsons, is that they were ultimately rationalizing what they felt like doing by telling themselves it was for some admirable purpose.

 

It's not the sneakiness I object to, it's the self-deception/hypocrisy. I'd amend my list to say that in this regard, from what we've seen to date, I don't mind the Iron Warriors or Night Lords either in this regard.

 

I'm not quite sure how you can lump the Word Bearers or 1K Sons into the self-deception/hypocrisy camp, much less give the Iron Warriors a pass. Word Bearers were doing their job and got slapped in the face, a direct chastisement and confrontation that betrayed all their works and earned them treatment as a second-rate Legion. The 1K Sons were deceived by their Primarch and his Faustian contract with the Warp, without their knowledge or assent, while being forced to live under the shadow of a doom they weren't going to avoid. There's no self-deception or hypocrisy in either of those instances, except on the part of Magnus himself for thinking he could weasel out of this bargain and succeed where even the Emperor apparently failed. The Iron Warriors, on the other hand, turned because their Primarch felt slighted. That's pettiness above and beyond anything Lorgar or Magnus were guilty of. At least Haunter had the attempted assassination and arrest to push him over the edge into rebellion; Perturabo had no such reasoning beyond his own personal perception that he was being shortchanged. Same with Mortarion and the Death Guard: he did it because he wanted to kill Astartes, if he had a reason beyond that I don't know what it was.

[Frater Uriah]

Well, I beat Khestra the Unbeheld to the punch on the Perturabo and the Lion thread, but he beat me here. :)

 

An excellent analysis. I concur.

[Aegnor]

Wasn't Mortarion being torn to pieces by the throes of Nurgle's Rot at the time he agreed to convert to Chaos? That's a bit different from just wanting to kill Astartes. Not that I like him for his choice :)

 

The Word Bearers had been told in plain English (or low gothic presumably) by the Emperor - "I am not a God. I don't want people to worship me. We are championing a secular crusade. Your job in that crusade is to go conquer the galaxy". It was only after they decided, "You know what, the Emperor doesn't really mean those things he says. He may tell us one thing, but really he wants us to do an entirely different thing", that they got themselves into trouble. He confronted them over their works because they went against his express command. He made them feel like they hadn't done their job properly because they hadn't.

 

The 1K Sons were largely sold down the river by Magnus, I agree. But Ahriman et al didn't exactly toe the line when the Emperor forbade them from using their psychic abilities at Nikea did they? They decided that the Emperor didn't know what he was talking about and that they were the true hope for humanity, and - wow! - what a surprise, it turned out that what humanity *really* needed from them was *exactly* what matched what they personally wanted to do anyway. It was arrogance and selfish writ large and it literally ultimately doomed the human race to extinction.

 

What I'm trying to explain, and I don't know whether I am or not, about what I object to in the Thousand Sons and Word Bearers in particular is that they cloaked their decision to betray their liege lord and species with a bunch of fooey about it somehow being the 'right' thing to do or the more noble path. It wasn't, it was them acting out of arrogance, conceit and selfishness IMO.

 

I don't like the World Eaters or Iron Warriors for what they did, but I will give them credit that they at least didn't try to con themselves or anyone else as to why they turned.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Mortarion was in fine health at Istvaan. He turned long before Nurgle decided to give him his full attention.

 

The Emperor allowed Lorgar to do what he did for a century before opening his yap about it, and when he did open his yap, it was to the sound of the obliteration of a complaint world's major center of civilization and the humiliation of an entire Legion and its Primarch in front of another Primarch, another Legion, a mortal Sigillite, and the Adeptus Custodes. That's not exactly a phone call from Mom that you need to slow down your spending at school, that's her sending the FBI through your dorm room door, them handcuffing you in the hallway naked for everyone to see with shotguns pointing at your head, while drug dogs and cops throw all your stuff out the window and nuns spray-paint a scarlet A on your car's brand new white paint job that you paid for, a car which has been booted and will cost you $300 to get out of impound by the way, all because you decided you wanted to eat breakfast at IHOP once a week as you'd been doing every week for the past four semesters and she hadn't said a WORD about it up until the point where they breached your door. That's not even within the bounds of propriety or even rational, logical sense. The Word Bearers were unjustly punished for performing the function they'd been performing for 100 years; that's not exactly a series of events that's going to lead to continued loyalty, that's profound treachery and deserved a response in kind. If Lorgar went wrong anywhere in this, it was that instead of becoming a closed-off automaton, he followed his nature (and some nudging from Kor Phaeron and Erebus) and went and found new gods instead. Did Lorgar mask his revenge as salvation? Yes, given what his options were, but it is to be noted that he didn't try and sell the salvation scheme to the Night Lords, Alpha Legion, or Iron Warriors at Istvaan, as his speech in The First Heretic plainly reveals.

 

Everything about the 1K Sons can be traced to Magnus, even the denial of Nikea. Magnus was going to keep practicing sorcery because it was the only tool he could wield that could help dig him out of his Devil's deal with Tzeentch. His Legion was going to continue because their Primarch was, and if that wasn't reason enough, it was going to be real rough living on Prospero with psychic insects laying eggs in your brain because you weren't going to be allowed to defend yourself from them or treat their infestations once you'd been infected. Acceptance of Nikea was tantamount to accepting being exiled from their own homeworld as well as being forced to accept being something they were not. But Nikea was a symptom, not the cause, and the fault lies with Magnus for his bargain and his struggle to get out of it, and with the Emperor for listening to the likes of Russ and Mortarion without even speaking to Magnus beforehand about it. This is before I even touch on the hypocrisy of Nikea in that there were more exceptions given after the verdict than there were violations of it by the accused, not the least of which was the Emperor himself. The "Do as I say, not as I do" routine wasn't going to fly with Magnus, and the Emperor had to have known that. It's also of note that the Emperor had either no inkling or knowledge of the continued use of psychic powers by the 1K Sons after Nikea up until Magnus broke the Golden Throne webway La-Z-Boy (since he didn't deign to assign watchdogs to Magnus' Legion like he did with Lorgar's), or that he knew and simply didn't care enough to do anything about it until it became a nuisance that impacted his work directly.

 

Obviously I'm not going to change your mind, or even attempt to do so. I'm just hoping you understand that you're essentially crucifying two Legions for crimes they didn't necessarily commit except under duress, while giving freebie felonies to Legions that fundamentally went traitor over base selfishness or contempt for the purpose they'd been given. I'm really hoping the BL digs deeper into the Iron Warriors in particular; the excerpt from Age of Darkness has my hopes up that we're going to get a better revelation for the reasons why Perturabo felt so maligned that he jumped at the chance to turn. I also hope most of that gets pinned on Dorn, who is my personal favorite punching bag for being a walking poison when it comes to inter-Primarch relations. :P

[Frater Uriah]

Wow. Better and better. :P

 

Grade-A defense of Lorgar, by the way. And the Thousand Sons, if not necessarily Magnus, who hanged himself on the miles of rope the Emperor handed him, and got his Legion fragged, to boot.

[Aegnor]

It's good being able to properly debate this. :P. It's past 2 in the am here, so I'll respond in the morning when I'm awake enough to give your points the due respect, but I will say that so far my biggest gripe with the HH has been that it's been told almost exclusively from what I consider the warped view of the heretics, which is what you're putting forward. I really hope they rectify that, because pretty much by definition any version of events where chaos has the moral upper ground is misleading, in my view of the universe's fluff.

[Frater Uriah]

Aegnor, I'm not sure the HH is putting the heretics on the moral high ground. I think that, at this point, it needs to be primarily focused on the heretics. If it focused initially on the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, for example, we'd see a lot more "For the Emperor!" and less heresy, and we'd not be any closer to understanding how and why the Horus Heresy happened. The heretical Legions get the books, because they're the ones who turned. The Dark Angels got some books because a bunch of them turned, and while they didn't necessarily side with Horus, or even against the Emperor, they still rebelled. Prospero Burns focuses on the Space Wolves, who stick it to the Thousand Sons because they defied the Emperor's edict against sorcery. And it is all to answer the "Why?" that the Horus Heresy presents, so that it's not just something glossed over on around four pages in the contents of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. "Horus went to Davin and introduced warrior lodges to the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters, and the Death Guard, which wouldn't have been so bad, except they were really Chaos cults, because he was bad." I, for one, want to know more about why this happened, and after around 20 years of playing 40K, I got to start finding out.

 

The Horus Heresy series is still in its explicatory phase. That way, when we get back to the Loyalist Legions, it goes from, "For the Emperor!" to "Holy :P !" And we know what's up because we've been watching it play out.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The heretical Legions get the books, because they're the ones who turned.

 

Exactly.

 

It's the Horus Heresy series, not the Great Crusade series.. So from that standpoint the "interesting" stuff goes on within and around the soon-to-be Traitor legions.

[Razhbad]

Ok with Word Bearers it is simple for them. They had worshipped the Emperor as a god for years. There entire existance and every campaign around this. Then the Emperor tells them in no certain terms they are wrong and he is really annoyed with them, but it still took him years to do it. Naturally it had a crushing effect on them, so no wonder they turned to chaos.

 

With the Thousand Sons Magnus was just following in his fathers footsteps or trying to. He thought he could but he could not and it went badly for him. But the fault also lies with the Emperor. The Emperor of Mankind seems to go down the route that ignorace of Chaos is the best defence against it, well if you pretend the 4 Chaos Gods aren't there is does not mean they are not. If he had fully explained it all to Magnus then maybe it would not have gone down the way it did.

 

Perterabo was just bitter for the missions he was put on. They kept on getting garrison duty and seige stuff and it annoyed him. But yet he forgot that it was what he was good at, the Emperor picked for those missions because he was the best.

 

As for Konrad, now it seems the Assasination attempt and the disapproval of their tactics is what ssent him on his path. Was the Assassin sent by the Emperor who knows, i do not think it was. But that does not matter Konrad thought his father had betrayed him so his decision was simple.

 

Mortarion i believe had a thing against Tyrants and he was extremely loyal to Horus. So corrupting him against the Emperor would have been easier, now of course he ended up rotting like mad.

 

Angron of course had his father screw him over on their first meeting and he never recovered from it. His honour was stained and he really wanted vengeance.

 

Fulgrim is a unique one and the book sums that up perfectly.

 

Alpharius i still am not certain of his allegiance/fall.

 

Horus, out of all the Primarchs has the most issues. The Emperor leaving the crusade generally hurt his feelings, he missed his father and wanted him by his side so much. Topped with his own Pride and Ambition Chaos found the chink in his armour.

[Zynk Kaladin]

We have to remember that the Emperor has thousands of years of experience and is the smartest man alive during the Horus Heresy. I believe he thinks and dissects a multitude of ideas and concepts, judging them based on his past experiences and history before putting them into action. I have it in my mind that whatever the Emperor says or does IS just, moral and righteous, even though it might not be outwardly obvious it is the right or "smart" thing to do. As always we never see the big E's side of the story, so his actions are always made to seem short sighted, hypocritical, and harsh so we sympathize with the traitors. His actions are justified and right, but never fully and perhaps never can be explained , which puts a big hole in the story.

 

Perhaps in the grand scheme of things what the Emperor did to Lorgar is justified. Perhaps there is some other information about Emperor-Lorgar/Word Bearers relations we are never told about or something the Emperor has experienced before that would cause him to act that way. There has to be a sound reason why the Emperor was so "cold" to Lorgar because I can't see the archetypal leader/savior of humanity being a dimwitted moron with no moral values or concept of "parent-son" relations. I'm guessing the Emperor approached Lorgar as his superior rather than Lorgar's father-son concept, which explains why the big E was so cold and to the point. Really, the Emperor shouldn't have to coddle his generals. Lorgar is a super-man, not a child, and had 100 years to understand how wrong and misguided he is. He failed, miserably.

 

I sympathize with Lorgar, but he should have about-faced his way of thinking when his superior made an example out of him. If Lorgar had any respect for the Emperor then he could have risen from the ashes, so to speak, and soared above and beyond the Emperor's expectations. Praises might ensue, but should not be expected. Remember, the primarchs are not children, though ALL of them act like such A LOT.

 

EDIT:

 

Magnus was obviously arrogant, which I explained why earlier. He should have respected the Emperor's, the man who has thousands of years of experience and wisdom, decision. Magnus was childish and I could go so far as to say the Emepror shouldn't have any compassion for losing a son and renegade general. However, I believe the big E cares for them(the Primarchs) more than we know, which is why he didn't outright kill Maggy for violating a DIRECT ORDER. Hell, Maggy even got to explain himself in "court" at Nikkea so it's not like his input wasn't valued. It was certainly in the E's jurisdiction to do execute the big guy. Although I feel bad for Magnus, he was so childish in his decision-making. Im even going as far to say even Tzeench's plotting has no effect on a man's decision. It's ultimately up to the man to screw himself or not.

 

I don't know much about the other traitor primarchs (Horus' story is obvious, Alpharius/Omegan(sp?) are scum for trusting aliens over their FATHER), but relatively, the Emperor is always right.

[tiberium40k]

Ok with Word Bearers it is simple for them. They had worshipped the Emperor as a god for years. There entire existance and every campaign around this. Then the Emperor tells them in no certain terms they are wrong and he is really annoyed with them, but it still took him years to do it. Naturally it had a crushing effect on them, so no wonder they turned to chaos.

 

Personally, I blame Colchis for Lorgar`s religiousness. But I also find the "it took a century to reprimand Lorgar" bit somewhat strange. So the Emperor comes and tells Lorgar he is not a god, and gives him the Imperial Truth (and we know what it says about gods) to spread. How come Lorgar is the ONLY Primarch that missed that point? In Prospero Burns, it is said the Emperor has tremendous patience, but when it is spent all hell breaks loose. IMO, the Emperor should have listened to his better judgement and disposed of Lorgar rather then letting his sentiment give Lorgar a second chance.

 

But the fault also lies with the Emperor. The Emperor of Mankind seems to go down the route that ignorace of Chaos is the best defence against it, well if you pretend the 4 Chaos Gods aren't there is does not mean they are not. If he had fully explained it all to Magnus then maybe it would not have gone down the way it did.

 

If we are to trust Erebus in False Gods, ignorance about Chaos and anti-religiousness actually is a way of hurting the Chaos gods. So in that respect, maybe the Imperial Truth was a good defence against Chaos.

 

As for Magnus, the Emperor gave him plenty of warnings. Even Magnus himself admitted this in the book. And if the Emperor told his sons there were gods out there, wouldnt he have underminded everything he was trying to achieve with the Imperial truth?

 

Angron of course had his father screw him over on their first meeting and he never recovered from it. His honour was stained and he really wanted vengeance.

 

Angron was self-obsessed. The Emperor came, offered him stuff beyond his wildest dreams, and Angron refused because he wanted to die fighting. He didnt want to free the slaves, overthrow the tyrants or whatnot, he wanted to die fighting. If the Emperor had came down with his warriors to help him, Angron would still have felt his honour was stained, and the same problems would be present.

 

Horus, out of all the Primarchs has the most issues. The Emperor leaving the crusade generally hurt his feelings, he missed his father and wanted him by his side so much. Topped with his own Pride and Ambition Chaos found the chink in his armour.

 

Actually Horus has the lest to complain. He got de facto rulership over the entire Imperium. The Emperor trusted Horus so much that he gave him the second most powerfull position in the galaxy. But Horus couldnt take it. Before Ullanor, all Horus had to do was re-unite humanity and kill aliens. After Ullanor, his responsibilities were far greater, but he just wanted to wage war, as seen when the Mournival tried to talk him out of attacking Davin in person. Again, the Emperor`s sentiment betrayed him; technically speaking Guilliman was the better choice since he already had empire-running skills.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Angron was self-obsessed. The Emperor came, offered him stuff beyond his wildest dreams, and Angron refused because he wanted to die fighting. He didnt want to free the slaves, overthrow the tyrants or whatnot, he wanted to die fighting. If the Emperor had came down with his warriors to help him, Angron would still have felt his honour was stained, and the same problems would be present.

 

In After Desh'ea, Angron seems more upset that he doesn't know what color to make that last twist in his rope than the prospect of being cheated out of some glorious death; by this point he had to know he probably wasn't capable of being killed in the fashion of his comrades. I don't think he was out to die in combat, I think he was honestly contemplating winning that last fight and was robbed of the chance, and that his slave army all died because he wasn't there. His rebellion had been a wild success, one that paralleled Spartacus', but Spartacus also wasn't a superhuman demigod. Angron's blame stems less from "Oh, I was so ready to die with my people and Daddy made me come home instead" and more from "All my people died because Daddy made me come home instead, but if I had been there we would have won." World of difference, IMO. Angron's betrayal was so selfless that he blamed the Emperor for condemning his loyal army to death, not for condemning him to a life he wasn't going to have lost.

[tiberium40k]

In After Desh'ea, Angron seems more upset that he doesn't know what color to make that last twist in his rope than the prospect of being cheated out of some glorious death; by this point he had to know he probably wasn't capable of being killed in the fashion of his comrades.

 

Perhaps he was upset about the colour of the last twist on his rope because he was cheated out of a glorious death. <_<

 

-snip-

 

That`s what you think, while the Index Astartes states he wanted to die in combat. Unless something else is written, Im going with this.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

In After Desh'ea, Angron seems more upset that he doesn't know what color to make that last twist in his rope than the prospect of being cheated out of some glorious death; by this point he had to know he probably wasn't capable of being killed in the fashion of his comrades.

 

Perhaps he was upset about the colour of the last twist on his rope because he was cheated out of a glorious death. ;)

 

But that don't make no sense! Who cares what color of lining your casket has after you're already dead? <_<

 

That`s what you think, while the Index Astartes states he wanted to die in combat. Unless something else is written, Im going with this.

 

I don't know why it is people keep going back to the Index Astartes when it hasn't been relevant or up-to-date in years. It's like trying to base an argument about evolutionary genetics using only Darwin's The Origin of Species and nothing else published in the intervening years between 1859 and now. You gotta cut the cord, man! :huh:

[Billuriye]

Again, the Emperor`s sentiment betrayed him; technically speaking Guilliman was the better choice since he already had empire-running skills.

 

Warmaster title does not require to have an empire running skill. The ruling is left to humans. Horus was a fine choice.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Again, the Emperor`s sentiment betrayed him; technically speaking Guilliman was the better choice since he already had empire-running skills.

 

Warmaster title does not require to have an empire running skill. The ruling is left to humans. Horus was a fine choice.

 

"Master of War" anyone?

[Clewz]

Alpharius/Omegan(sp?) are scum for trusting aliens over their FATHER

 

but did they? The more times I read legion the more I see their lies

[Aegnor]

So the Emperor comes and tells Lorgar he is not a god, and gives him the Imperial Truth (and we know what it says about gods) to spread. How come Lorgar is the ONLY Primarch that missed that point? In Prospero Burns, it is said the Emperor has tremendous patience, but when it is spent all hell breaks loose. IMO, the Emperor should have listened to his better judgement and disposed of Lorgar rather then letting his sentiment give Lorgar a second chance.

 

If we are to trust Erebus in False Gods, ignorance about Chaos and anti-religiousness actually is a way of hurting the Chaos gods. So in that respect, maybe the Imperial Truth was a good defence against Chaos.

 

As for Magnus, the Emperor gave him plenty of warnings. Even Magnus himself admitted this in the book. And if the Emperor told his sons there were gods out there, wouldnt he have underminded everything he was trying to achieve with the Imperial truth?

 

This x1000.

 

The "the Emperor never told Lorgar he was doing wrong thing" argument simply doesn't stack up. Lorgar was a religious fanatic who willfully ignored things he didn't like hearing. What, he came up with the whole "only the divine deny their divinity" thing because the Emperor never told him he wasn't a god? His reaction in TFH indicates (the shrill "stop lying, you ARE a God") this isn't the first time he's had this argument with his father.

 

I'm not seeking to excusing the Emperor's flaws as theyve been shown, he stuffed up several significant things as a leader and father. But I think just reading the HH novels so far, it's a bit too easy to lose the context that the characters in universe should have had - the Emperor is the most remarkable man in human history who single handedly saved humanity from extinction. He gave them their mission and led them to undreamt of success. We saw in After De'shea how Khârn felt about fighting alongside him. Taking the "you know what, he's full of *#%" decision in that context is a huge step that lots of them seem to take very very easily.

[tiberium40k]

But that don't make no sense! Who cares what color of lining your casket has after you're already dead?

 

Since when did Angron make sense? He is the guy people who killed for a living thought was too bloodthirsty. Hell, thats like Stalin telling you that you are too paranoid! ^_^

 

I don't know why it is people keep going back to the Index Astartes when it hasn't been relevant or up-to-date in years. It's like trying to base an argument about evolutionary genetics using only Darwin's The Origin of Species and nothing else published in the intervening years between 1859 and now. You gotta cut the cord, man!

 

*shrug* All I know is that Index Astartes still has a GW stamp, and that nothing I have read about Angron contests its claim. Now if you want to think about Angron as a virtuous chap thats fine, but I have yet to see any indication the guy would be as selfless as you describe him. If he really wanted to win, then why not ask the Emperor for help? Is he really willing to let most of his comrades die just so he could prove a point?

[tiberium40k]

Warmaster title does not require to have an empire running skill. The ruling is left to humans. Horus was a fine choice.

 

According to the original trilogy, the title "Warmaster" made Horus the Emperor`s proxy. Now a proxy is a person authorized to act for another, so Horus was required to have empire running skills. Otherwise all those Administratum people wouldnt have bothered him as much as they did in Horus Rising and he wouldnt be getting all those astropathic messages from Imperial commanders and his brothers he hated responding to. Horus (and most of the Primarchs) was a conqueror; he waged war while the Emperor made all the calls. When the Emperor gave him more power, more responsibility came along for the ride, and Horus couldnt handle it.

[Jeremiah2911]

Wow, some really great discussion, everyone. My thoughts:

 

As for the 1KSons, I can still sympathize with Magnus and the Legion, (or at least the legion), since they were basically predestined by the machinations of Tzeentch, who yes, preyed on Magnus' weaknesses of arrogance and hubris, but still...

 

Angron: Yeah, definitely got screwed over by the Emperor, but does that give him a reason?

 

Mortarion: Not really sure.

 

Lorgar: I can sympathize with him, as well. His home-world's entire culture was centered around religion and faith. But still, when the Emperor said stop, he should've.

 

Alpharius/Omegon: I still think that they were acting for the good of the Imperium (or at least Mankind). Legion has been one of my favorite books so far.

 

Fulgrim: Haven't read the book yet.

 

Horus: Total ^_^ . He just got his feeling hurt, and honestly had a weak mind, as Chaos was able to penetrate rather easily during his injure.

 

Curze: Don't know much about the Night Lords.

 

Did I miss any?

 

Anyways, yeah, there's the topic starter's 2 cents :)

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

*shrug* All I know is that Index Astartes still has a GW stamp, and that nothing I have read about Angron contests its claim.

 

Except for everything published since then, which includes After Desh'ea. Having GW's "stamp" on something doesn't give it perpetual life when something else that has GW's stamp on it overrules it later, otherwise there'd still be purpose behind Chapter Approved, and there would still be Squats running around. Index Astartes is contradicted by the HH books more often than it isn't, ergo it has become an unreliable source at worst and a gamble at best.

 

Now if you want to think about Angron as a virtuous chap thats fine, but I have yet to see any indication the guy would be as selfless as you describe him. If he really wanted to win, then why not ask the Emperor for help? Is he really willing to let most of his comrades die just so he could prove a point?

 

It's not a matter of selflessness, it's a matter of martial pride. Angron was a commander, one who had a plan and knew he could make it work, that was robbed of that plan before he ever got to enact it. Ask the Emperor for help? Why? He didn't need the Emperor's help to begin with, the Emperor was the cause of the destruction of his army in the first place by stealing its general from it on the eve of ultimate victory. The Emperor couldn't even be bothered to put Angron back down there when he had the opportunity to, much less "help". Angron was robbed of a victory, which isn't something someone who is suicidal would have cared anything about, but since Angron wasn't suicidal, then he cared about the color of the twist. That's what mattered to him, that the army he had led to victory time and again was led to victory one more time. . .except it wasn't. His army fought and died without him, when it could have fought and lived with him.

[tiberium40k]

Except for everything published since then, which includes After Desh'ea. Having GW's "stamp" on something doesn't give it perpetual life when something else that has GW's stamp on it overrules it later, otherwise there'd still be purpose behind Chapter Approved, and there would still be Squats running around. Index Astartes is contradicted by the HH books more often than it isn't, ergo it has become an unreliable source at worst and a gamble at best.

 

I dont need you to lecture me about how 40k canon works, ser. Give me an actual quote that contests the claim.

 

It's not a matter of selflessness, it's a matter of martial pride. Angron was a commander, one who had a plan and knew he could make it work, that was robbed of that plan before he ever got to enact it. Ask the Emperor for help? Why? He didn't need the Emperor's help to begin with, the Emperor was the cause of the destruction of his army in the first place by stealing its general from it on the eve of ultimate victory.

 

So it isnt selflessness anymore? Now its martial pride?

 

The story is simple. The Emperor didnt order Scotty to beam Angron out without a word. He came down to meet him first. Angron had a chance to do something similar to what Russ did and say "if you will fight by my side, I will serve you". But he didnt. He was willing to go ahead with his plan that would have probably killed most of his army to do what exactly? Prove a point?

 

 

Angron was robbed of a victory, which isn't something someone who is suicidal would have cared anything about, but since Angron wasn't suicidal, then he cared about the color of the twist. That's what mattered to him, that the army he had led to victory time and again was led to victory one more time. . .except it wasn't. His army fought and died without him, when it could have fought and lived with him.

 

Wanting to die in battle does not make one suicidal. Its the "go out in a blaze of glory" mentality, not the "slit my wrists" mentality. Spartacus went to that last battle hoping he would win and survive, but not expecting it. He died tyring to reach Crassus, but a Centurion killed him before he could get there.