A Thousand Sons

[Gree]

....and?

 

He knowingly broke a direct order from the Emperor. And you dont see this as relevant?

 

A direct order that as we know was flawed. No. I don't see that as relevant at all.

 

Why exactly should we apply it at all?

 

Because there is such a thing as objective guilt and subjective guilt.

 

And this clearly is subjective guilt.

 

That doesnt mean the ruling of the Master of Mankind can just be broken at a whim with no consequences.

 

Which it was a good thing it was not broken at a whim, but rather when the security of the entire Imperium is at stake over the loyalty of it's Warmaster.

 

You are raising a strawman.

 

No I'm not I'm afraid.

 

Really? That petty and irrelevant crime resulted in the destruction of the webway project.

 

Annoying yes. But in the short-term the treachery of Horus was more presseing honestly.

 

And no, I was not referring to the crime itself as petty, but the Emperor's hasty ruling of it.

 

Magnus is guilty both objectively and subjectively for disobeying the Emperor`s decree, and he is guilty only objectively for the destruction of the webway project. But he is still guilty for both actions.

 

No. I'm afraid it's just subjective here.

[tiberium40k]

A direct order that as we know was flawed. No. I don't see that as relevant at all.

 

It was still an order from the Emperor. You know, the guy Magnus was supposedly loyal to?

 

And this clearly is subjective guilt.

 

Subjective guilt refers to the psychological relationship of a person to the nature of the act he commits and its consequences. On this level the concept of guilt includes intent and negligence. In criminal law it sometimes also includes the motive, aim, and other elements of the subjective aspect of a crime.

 

Objective guilt is relationship between the person and the act itself, i.e. is he responsible for it.

 

Which it was a good thing it was not broken at a whim, but rather when the security of the entire Imperium is at stake over the loyalty of it's Warmaster.

 

He is still responsible. His motives were good, but he still literally caused all hell to break loose.

 

No I'm not I'm afraid.

 

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. So yes, you are.

 

And no, I was not referring to the crime itself as petty, but the Emperor's hasty ruling of it.

 

The Emperor did not send Russ there to destroy Magnus.

[Gree]

It was still an order from the Emperor. You know, the guy Magnus was supposedly loyal to?

 

...and? It's still a flawed order. I still don't see why it should matter.

 

Subjective guilt refers to the psychological relationship of a person to the nature of the act he commits and its consequences. On this level the concept of guilt includes intent and negligence. In criminal law it sometimes also includes the motive, aim, and other elements of the subjective aspect of a crime.

 

Objective guilt is relationship between the person and the act itself, i.e. is he responsible for it.

 

Apologies I'm not that quite versed in that aspect of law.

 

But how exactly does that matter at this point? Said law was not really a sensible or valid one at all.

 

He is still responsible. His motives were good, but he still literally caused all hell to break loose.

 

For a short period while the Emperor restored order and then ignored Magnus's message.

 

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

 

I am however quite well aware of what a strawman is thank you.

 

So yes, you are.

 

No, I'm not. I just pointed out a flaw in your argument.

 

The Emperor did not send Russ there to destroy Magnus.

 

Now when did I say that? (Of course that aspect is up to interpretation. Horus giving the order has been somewhat contridicted by Prospero Burns)

 

No, I'm referring to the Emperor's blatent ignorance of Magnus's warning. Going off Russ's comments, Russ and by extension the Emperor completely ignored Magnus's message, and in doing so helped doom themselves to Horus treachery.

[Dinks]

No, I'm referring to the Emperor's blatent ignorance of Magnus's warning. Going off Russ's comments, Russ and by extension the Emperor completely ignored Magnus's message, and in doing so helped doom themselves to Horus treachery.

Quite right!

[tiberium40k]

...and? It's still a flawed order. I still don't see why it should matter.

 

Do you really think orders can just be ignored if you think they are flawed? In the army its called insubordination, and if you have a job you probably understand that you cant just ignore what the boss tells you.

 

But how exactly does that matter at this point? Said law was not really a sensible or valid one at all.

 

Its still a law. Breaking it has consequences.

 

For a short period while the Emperor restored order and then ignored Magnus's message.

 

And why should he believe Magnus? McNeill showed the entire thing rather well in ATS; he has a son that has clearly broken his oath claiming Horus of all people is a traitor. From his perspective, its preposterous.

 

No, I'm not. I just pointed out a flaw in your argument.

 

I never argued that the law was perfect, just or sensible. I argued that breaking it has consequences.

 

Horus giving the order has been somewhat contridicted by Prospero Burns)

 

Its still there in ATS.

 

No, I'm referring to the Emperor's blatent ignorance of Magnus's warning. Going off Russ comments, Russ and by extension the Emperor completely ignored Magnus's message, and in doing so helped doom themselves to Horus treachery.

 

And so Magnus is vindicated? Funny, he didnt act that way in ATS.

[2000AD]

*sigh* That was what I was talking about. The Primarchs fought the warp creatures throuought the Crusade, and knew about their danger, if not their nature. Mortarion based his accusation on Nikaea on one such battle.

 

That Im afraid is irrelevant...... the absolute key to understanding the warp IS understanding exactly what these warp creatures were and what they represented.

 

If Im not mistaken NONE of the primarchs (with the possible exception of Magnus) had a clue...... to them they were just 'warp creatures'.

 

The Emperor held back on this information and this was ultimately what lead to his betrayal.

 

Im convinced there is a deliberate irony of behalf of GM on this....... the Emperor was vehemently anti-religion partly because he knew damn well there were Gods lurking in the universe..... he wanted to keep it secret. But it was this secrecy that drove many of his sons eventually into the worship of the chaos Gods.

[Dinks]

Do you really think orders can just be ignored if you think they are flawed? In the army its called insubordination, and if you have a job you probably understand that you cant just ignore what the boss tells you.

Actually that is not quite right, you can object and go over the head of said officer who has issued an order should you not agree (for whatever reason). Insubordination is essentially how you go about an action, the right way or the wrong way.

 

That applies to a normal job as well.

[Marshall Riese]

Do you really think orders can just be ignored if you think they are flawed? In the army its called insubordination, and if you have a job you probably understand that you cant just ignore what the boss tells you.

 

Alright so I will weigh in on this comment alone......In the army (at least the Canadian Forces) we have the right to disobey an order. But it has to be an order that is unlawful or would cause the member to go against our code of service discipline. Now that said the order that the big E gave was in no way unlawful and as we don't have the foggiest what their code of service discipline (or if they even have one) is, we can't rush to judge.

 

My two cents

[Gree]

...and? It's still a flawed order. I still don't see why it should matter.

 

Do you really think orders can just be ignored if you think they are flawed?

 

Depending what is at stake, yes.

 

In the army its called insubordination, and if you have a job you probably understand that you cant just ignore what the boss tells you.

 

I do have a job, and no, those situations don't really compare. The entire Imperium is at stake for an order that we know to be flawed. (As Librarians are stil being used quite fine in the 41st millenium). There is a difference between disoberying for petty reasons and disobeying when trillions of lives and a galactic empire is a stake.

 

Its still a law. Breaking it has consequences.

 

Consequences that pale beside galaxy-wide civil war.

 

And why should he believe Magnus?

 

Because his prediction was renforced by visions of one of Russ's own men, plus warnings from the Eldar.

 

McNeill showed the entire thing rather well in ATS; he has a son that has clearly broken his oath claiming Horus of all people is a traitor. From his perspective, its preposterous.

 

And then you have Astartes from another Legion also getting visions that support Magnus's claims. Seems like something might be up.

 

And then when Horus offically went traitor I can bet the Emperor had a huge ''Doh!'' moment.

 

I never argued that the law was perfect, just or sensible. I argued that breaking it has consequences.

 

I'm glad you recognise that the Emperor's law was flawed then. That was my point.

 

Its still there in ATS.

 

And? the way Russ acts in Prospero Burns it's like the Emperor himself ordered Magnus to be punished.

 

Given that Abnett is quite vague on the matter it's a case of ''he said, she said'' here.

 

And so Magnus is vindicated? Funny, he didnt act that way in ATS.

 

Magnus's own sense of guilt does not really matter when we look at the information as a whole with the benefit of hindsight instead of Magnus's own narrow perspective.

[tiberium40k]

But it was this secrecy that drove many of his sons eventually into the worship of the chaos Gods.

 

Lorgar was the only one to turn because there are gods out there. The others turned for different reasons.

 

-snip-

 

We could really go on and on about this, but I`ll stop it here because I`m too tired. The fact still remains it was not the only option Magnus had.

 

Because his prediction was renforced by visions of one of Russ's own men, plus warnings from the Eldar.

 

And then you have Astartes from another Legion also getting visions that support Magnus's claims. Seems like something might be up.

 

What did I say about the Emperor and trust?

 

And then when Horus offically went traitor I can bet the Emperor had a huge ''Doh!'' moment.

 

Probably, yes.

 

And? the way Russ acts in Prospero Burns it's like the Emperor himself ordered Magnus to be punished.

 

Given that Abnett is quite vague on the matter it's a case of ''he said, she said'' here.

 

Ahriman plucked the info out of Wyrdmake himself.

 

Magnus's own sense of guilt does not really matter when we look at the information as a whole with the benefit of hindsight instead of Magnus's own narrow perspective.

 

The veracity of the message is not in question, but the consequences of how it was delivered. I dont think you can just throw aside Magnus`s guilt at the destruction of the webway and paint his subsequent actions as irellevant when considering the issue, IMO.

[Gree]

We could really go on and on about this, but I`ll stop it here because I`m too tired. The fact still remains it was not the only option Magnus had.

 

But it however remains the best option based on Magnus's POV.

 

What did I say about the Emperor and trust?

 

Trust is one thing, but when you get overwhelming evidence of something it may be good to investigate.

 

Ahriman plucked the info out of Wyrdmake himself.

 

That's nice, but it does'nt change the fact tha Prospero Burns semi-contridicts that. I'm not saying one or right or wrong, but they contridict.

 

Abnett and McNeill said that it would be expected that the two books would contridict each other.

 

The veracity of the message is not in question, but the consequences of how it was delivered. I dont think you can just throw aside Magnus`s guilt at the destruction of the webway and paint his subsequent actions as irellevant when considering the issue, IMO.

 

Well that's your opinion. I however will do so since I don't see it as relevant at all to the bigger picture when I have hindsight.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

If we assume that had Horus not changed the orders and had Prospero razed, the likelihood is pretty good in Magnus' favor that once Russ had delivered him to Terra, the extenuating circumstances behind him doing what he did, given the gravity of the warning he delivered, might have been enough to impose a lighter sentence after the fact. That Horus felt threatened enough by the possibility that even after Magnus screwed up, the Emperor might have been convinced to at least investigate before imposing sentence on Magnus for his indiscretion, speaks volumes about why he had those orders changed. The fact is that we'll never know exactly what would have happened if Magnus had successfully been delivered to Terra; he might have been hung on a gibbet to be eaten by crows for a hundred years, or he might have been hailed as a hero of the Imperium for having delivered such vital information and been granted amnesty for his crime. All part of the tragedy of the Thousand Sons.

[tiberium40k]

Trust is one thing, but when you get overwhelming evidence of something it may be good to investigate.

 

You call three claims overwhelming evidence? Lets look at it:

 

Magnus: The claim of an oath-breaker who just destroyed the webway project.

 

Eldar: The claim of a race of liars.

 

Space Wolf: The claim of a daemon-infested man.

 

Not the most thrustworthy bunch of people.

 

Besides, considering the reactions of the Rune Priests in PB, its unlikely they would report what they got to the Emperor, taking nuber three out, so the Emperor has the first two to base his judgement on.

 

EDIT:

 

At the end of the day, the Emperor simply trusted the man he gave de facto rulership over the Imperium too much, weather it was misplaced trust does not change how the Emperor regarded Horus.

[Zynk Kaladin]

"Flawed" orders is very opinionated. Remember, the Emperor is the smartest, most experienced man in the galaxy. He doesn't make orders on a whim.

 

The rest of my argument would just be echoing what tiberium40k said.

[Razhbad]

When it comes to the decision of Nikea Magnus is not the only one who disobeys the Emperors order. I have even read ATS again to be certain that it had happened. When verdict is given the Emperor of Mankind specifically states that the Librarian order is abollished that all psychic Astartes are to stop using Psychic powers and to return to being normal battle brothers. Now Magnus does break that ruling in a far grand scale. Yet Leman Russ does the same thing, for the Space Wolf Legion still use the Rune Priests and psychic powers. Now I know Rune Priests are not exactly the same as Librarians but the Emperor was very clear, he did not ban Astartes from using certain warp powers he banned them from using all warp powers. Again I know Russ did not cause the damage Magnus did but he still defied his fathers decree.

 

Again with Mortarion read IA (I know it’s a poor source but it’s the best one for his reasons of the fall. It is made clear that Mortarion had a thing about Tyrants which is what the Emperor was).

 

Now it was me who said the Emperor planned the HH, and I came to that belief just based on my own oppinion because I could never imagine the Emperor beings so idiotic. This is a man who could destroy armies with a thought and yet the HH happened. My guess is because he wanted it to happen, the question is why. I guess its all about the end game, because despite the Emperor being a monster he is a monster on mankinds side, I would believe that if he did indeed arrange the HH then he realised that these events were the only way to finally beat Chaos, again though that is just my oppinion. All we know about the Emperor is he is mysterious and a lot of the decisions he made be they bad parenting or stupidity led to some of his sons turning traitor.

[Gree]

Trust is one thing, but when you get overwhelming evidence of something it may be good to investigate.

 

You call three claims overwhelming evidence?

 

Yes.

 

Magnus: The claim of an oath-breaker who just destroyed the webway project.

 

Who before this was not known to be a liar or wrong in such matters.

 

Eldar: The claim of a race of liars.

 

Don't tell me that the Emperor belives his own propaganda. I think the Emperor would also know about the Eldar's precognition ability.

 

Space Wolf: The claim of a daemon-infested man.

 

Except at this point we are having the same point being renforced over and over again. I think the Emperor would at least be getting suspicous at this point.

 

Not the most thrustworthy bunch of people.

 

Hardly.

 

Besides, considering the reactions of the Rune Priests in PB, its unlikely they would report what they got to the Emperor, taking nuber three out, so the Emperor has the first two to base his judgement on.

 

No, Russ knew of what the Rune Priests said. If he did't tell the Emperor then I blame him partially for lack of warning during the Heresy.

 

At the end of the day, the Emperor simply trusted the man he gave de facto rulership over the Imperium too much, weather it was misplaced trust does not change how the Emperor regarded Horus.

 

You can trust Horus, that's fine. Or you can actually investigate all possibilites.

 

"Flawed" orders is very opinionated. Remember, the Emperor is the smartest, most experienced man in the galaxy. He doesn't make orders on a whim.

 

And he still can be wrong. That does not make him perfect or infallible at all.

 

Take for example Nikea. The Emperor banned all psykers from the Astartes Legions and dismantled the Libarius. And yet, as the 41st Millenium showed us, the Emperor was...........wrong. Psykers where used with great skill to combat psykers and serve Astartes Chapters.

 

In that aspect, Magnus's Librarian system was vindicated.

 

The rest of my argument would just be echoing what tiberium40k said.

 

And you have all my counters for said argument.

[tiberium40k]

When it comes to the decision of Nikea Magnus is not the only one who disobeys the Emperors order. I have even read ATS again to be certain that it had happened. When verdict is given the Emperor of Mankind specifically states that the Librarian order is abollished that all psychic Astartes are to stop using Psychic powers and to return to being normal battle brothers. Now Magnus does break that ruling in a far grand scale. Yet Leman Russ does the same thing, for the Space Wolf Legion still use the Rune Priests and psychic powers. Now I know Rune Priests are not exactly the same as Librarians but the Emperor was very clear, he did not ban Astartes from using certain warp powers he banned them from using all warp powers. Again I know Russ did not cause the damage Magnus did but he still defied his fathers decree.

 

So Russ is a hypocrite. What else is new?

 

Again with Mortarion read IA (I know it’s a poor source but it’s the best one for his reasons of the fall. It is made clear that Mortarion had a thing about Tyrants which is what the Emperor was).

 

I will have to check with my IA, but IIRC it states Mortarion joined because Horus promised him something. Again, if the tyrant stuff is true, Mortarion is a hypocrite; Horus sacrifised an entire world in Nemesis, meaning he was just as or perhaps more tyrannical then the Emperor.

 

All we know about the Emperor is he is mysterious and a lot of the decisions he made be they bad parenting or stupidity led to some of his sons turning traitor.

 

Didnt we go through this?

 

Yes.

 

You would make a very bad lawyer. :lol:

 

Who before this was not known to be a liar or wrong in such matters.

 

You mean before he broke his oath and caused Daemons to swarm the human webway? Yeah, I think his credibility would plummet with that in mind.

 

Don't tell me that the Emperor belives his own propaganda. I think the Emperor would also know about the Eldar's precognition ability.

 

The Eldar fluff itself states they lie all the time to achieve their goals. They could have been trying to turn the Imperium on itself for their own goals.

 

EDIT: I actually went back and checked; where does it say the Eldar warned the Emperor? Eldrad warned Fulgrim if Im not mistaken.

 

Except at this point we are having the same point being renforced over and over again. I think the Emperor would at least be getting suspicous at this point.

 

For all we know, he may have been. Its not like we have his view at hand.

 

You can trust Horus, that's fine. Or you can actually investigate all possibilites.

 

Do you remember how Sanguinius reacted to the notion of Horus betraying the Emperor in Horus Rising? You are not looking from the pre-heresy perspective here.

[Razhbad]

Don't tell me that the Emperor belives his own propaganda. I think the Emperor would also know about the Eldar's precognition ability.

 

The Eldar fluff itself states they lie all the time to achieve their goals. They could have been trying to turn the Imperium on itself for their own goals.

 

Is not the Emperor of Mankind the most powerful Psyker in existance, should he not know if their is truth to the statement.

[Gree]

You would make a very bad lawyer. :)

 

That is not relevant to the argument at all.

 

You mean before he broke his oath and caused Daemons to swarm the human webway? Yeah, I think his credibility would plummet with that in mind.

 

Except Magnus did't deblibertely unleash daemons into the webway. In fact one mistake should not affect a lifetime of loyal service. You don't start doubting someone because of a one-time thing.

 

The Eldar fluff itself states they lie all the time to achieve their goals. They could have been trying to turn the Imperium on itself for their own goals.

 

They lie but they also help the Imperium. I would expect the Emperor to be at least intellgient enough to see the lies from the truth but appearantly not.

 

EDIT: I actually went back and checked; where does it say the Eldar warned the Emperor? Eldrad warned Fulgrim if Im not mistaken.

 

It was in the Third Edition Eldar Codex, where the Ranger said Eldrad warned the Emperor.

 

For all we know, he may have been. Its not like we have his view at hand.

 

Actually going by Russ's words the Emperor is implied to have outright dismissed it.

 

Do you remember how Sanguinius reacted to the notion of Horus betraying the Emperor in Horus Rising? You are not looking from the pre-heresy perspective here.

 

I don't really care about Sanguinius's biases. The Emperor may have loved Horus, but I would expect him to at least have the intelligence to investigate matters properly instead of hamfistedly ignoring them.

[Razhbad]

Its been awhile since i have read Horus Rising but when does it mention Sanguinius and the idea of Horus betraying the Emperor?

[Dinks]

Except Magnus did't deblibertely unleash daemons into the webway. In fact one mistake should not affect a lifetime of loyal service. You don't start doubting someone because of a one-time thing.

I am not one for breaking up debates but what you said there, could in the Emperors eyes be all that was needed to bring Magnus down.

 

The rage the Emperor must have had in him when Magnus broke through the barriers must have been unimaginable. All of the Emperors work, that could never be replaced, destroyed in seconds but a thoughtless action from Magnus is unforgiveable. I am a huge fan of Magnus, but in the Prospero burns he comes across as very selfish, that was down to the author admittedly but even still, that is how Magnus will be remembered from now on by the majority of people.

[tiberium40k]

Except Magnus did't deblibertely unleash daemons into the webway. In fact one mistake should not affect a lifetime of loyal service. You don't start doubting someone because of a one-time thing.

 

Did you read ATS? You are treating the destruction of the webway like its nothing at all.

 

It was in the Third Edition Eldar Codex, where the Ranger said Eldrad warned the Emperor.

 

That rant about Eldrad? Form the books, we see he only warned Fulgrim, not the Emperor.

 

Actually going by Russ's words the Emperor is implied to have outright dismissed it.

 

Russ isnt the Emperor, no?

 

I don't really care about Sanguinius's biases. The Emperor may have loved Horus, but I would expect him to at least have the intelligence to investigate matters properly instead of hamfistedly ignoring them.

 

Except he did... before Ullanor. You are ingoring what kind of honour the Emperor gave Horus.

 

Its been awhile since i have read Horus Rising but when does it mention Sanguinius and the idea of Horus betraying the Emperor?

 

When Aximanad and Loken ask Horus about the Interex, IIRC.

[Gree]

Except Magnus did't deblibertely unleash daemons into the webway. In fact one mistake should not affect a lifetime of loyal service. You don't start doubting someone because of a one-time thing.

 

Did you read ATS? You are treating the destruction of the webway like its nothing at all.

 

I have read A Thousand Sons thank you very much. What Magnus and the Emperor thought of the destruction of the webway should have been of little consequence of the possibility of a galactic civil war.

 

And no, I'm not treating the destruction of the webway like it's nothing at all. It's just that Horus's treachery was greater.

 

That rant about Eldrad? Form the books, we see he only warned Fulgrim, not the Emperor.

 

That however doesn't mean that Eldrad was able to warn the Emperor seperately. The Heresy series is not finished after all. I tend to treat the two seperately.

 

Russ isnt the Emperor, no?

 

However he was close at the time and did confer with him. Thus we can draw conclusions from Russ's comments about the Emperor's rage.

 

Except he did... before Ullanor. You are ingoring what kind of honour the Emperor gave Horus.

 

I am fully aware of what honor gave Horus. It should not matter if Chaos is involved and the fate of the Imperium could be at stake. Or at least that's what I would expect the Emperor to act like.

 

The rage the Emperor must have had in him when Magnus broke through the barriers must have been unimaginable. All of the Emperors work, that could never be replaced, destroyed in seconds but a thoughtless action from Magnus is unforgiveable.

 

It was not a thoughtless action, but an action that Magnus saw the very fate of the Imperium itself held on. The destruction of the webway was a great thing yes, but not something that should override the years of service Magnus had.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

as fun as it is watching people do circles, can we just agree that we're not going to agree on this subject and move on?

 

WLK

[Dinks]

It was in the Third Edition Eldar Codex, where the Ranger said Eldrad warned the Emperor.

 

That rant about Eldrad? Form the books, we see he only warned Fulgrim, not the Emperor.

In older fluff Eldrad warns the Emperor, that is what Gree is talking about.