tiberium40k Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I have read A Thousand Sons thank you very much. What Magnus and the Emperor thought of the destruction of the webway should have been of little consequence of the possibility of a galactic civil war. And no, I'm not treating the destruction of the webway like it's nothing at all. It's just that Horus's treachery was greater. Magnus and the Emperor disagree with you. That however doesn't mean that Eldrad was able to warn the Emperor seperately. The Heresy series is not finished after all. I tend to treat the two seperately. What it also doesn`t mean is that hearsay from a biased source should be taken as face value. I am fully aware of what honor gave Horus. It should not matter if Chaos is involved and the fate of the Imperium could be at stake. Or at least that's what I would expect the Emperor to act like. So now we are down to one single souce that wrecked one of the most imprtant projects in human history. Screw it, lets just agree to disagree, since I wont change your mind and you wont change mine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2667985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Magnus and the Emperor disagree with you. At the time maybe. but that was before the Heresy had went it's course. What it also doesn`t mean is that hearsay from a biased source should be taken as face value. I never said it should be taken at face value. I just don't see any reason to discredit it yet. So now we are down to one single souce that wrecked one of the most imprtant projects in human history. No we are not. I've already refuted your earlier arguments on the other two. Screw it, lets just agree to disagree, since I wont change your mind and you wont change mine. All I have been doing is simply defending myself at this point and responding when quoted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 At the time maybe. but that was before the Heresy had went it's course. Hindsight is not something they have. I just don't see any reason to discredit it yet. Its hearsay from an Eldar Ranger ranting about how awesome Eldrad is. There is nothing in the HH to support it. No we are not. I've already refuted your earlier arguments on the other two. Refuted how exactly? The Eldar source doesnt exsist and the second one we have no way of knowing got to the Emperor, and even if it did its discredited without the Eldar backing as its made by a daemon-infested man. Daemons (or warp predators) are also things in 40k that like to lie a lot. All I have been doing is simply defending myself at this point and responding when quoted. You actually started this entire thing. Now, Ive had enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Hindsight is not something they have. But the safety of a Galactic Empire is something they do have. Its hearsay from an Eldar Ranger ranting about how awesome Eldrad is. There is nothing in the HH to support it. Except you don't know that yet. The series is not over. There is nothing against it at all. Refuted how exactly? See above. One source isnt even there Yes it is. and the second one we have no way of knowing got to the Emperor, Russ knew about it. If he did't tel the Emperor then he was negligent. and even if it did its discredited without the Eldar backing as its made from a daemon-infested man. Except Russ would't have known that the Chaos Gods existed. He knew something bad existed, but hardly something on that level. I see no reason to ignore it. Daemons (or warp predators) are also things in 40k that like to lie a lot. Except at the time warp predators where thought to be mindless animals. You actually started this entire thing. Now, Ive had enough. Actually no. I dropped in and made a couple of comments. It was you who escalated it into a full argument. At this point I am simply responding to you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Lorgar was the only one to turn because there are gods out there. The others turned for different reasons. Irrelevant and wrong..... Angron for example turned to worship Khorne in a nanosecond. And anyway the reasons for turning are irrelevant - if the Emperor had told his sons the truth from the start they would not have been left to be duped by Horus/Lorgar and into the worship of Chaos. The lack of trust shown by the Emperor backfired spectacularly in the case of Magnus...... the one Primarch who could have understood properly the true nature of the warp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 But the safety of a Galactic Empire is something they do have. And it is safe in the hands of the Warmaster. Context, Gree. Dont apply hindsight. The Emperor trusted Horus with the safety of the Imperium by giving him the title of Warmaster. Thus far, the only thing going against him is the claim of Magnus, who has royally screwed up by destroying one of the most important projects in human history. The Emperor`s trust in Horus was misplaced as WE know, but they dont. Except you don't know that yet. The series is not over. There is nothing against it at all. See above. Yes it is. The Argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy. There is no hint in the fluff that it happened. Until there is, you cant apply it. Except Russ would't have known that the Chaos Gods existed. He knew something bad existed, but hardly something on that level. I see no reason to ignore it. Prospero Burns explained why Russ and the Rune priests ignored it. Page 389. Knowledge of the Gods is not important here. Except at the time warp predators where thought to be mindless animals. Re-read the interrogation of Eada Haelfwulf; it shows that the Space Wolves believed beasts from the warp can effect a man in such a way. Actually no. I dropped in and made a couple of comments. It was you who escalated it into a full argument. At this point I am simply responding to you. Whatever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Irrelevant and wrong..... Angron for example turned to worship Khorne in a nanosecond. Angron did not turn because he found out that Khorne exsisted; he turned because Horus gave him the freedom to slaughter indiscriminately. He then followed Khorne because it was the deiety that best suited him. And anyway the reasons for turning are irrelevant - if the Emperor had told his sons the truth from the start they would not have been left to be duped by Horus/Lorgar and into the worship of Chaos. Did you even read the books? Horus does not say "join Chaos", he says "support ME in my campaign". The traitor Primarchs didnt not join him because they found out about gods or they wanted to worship Chaos. The lack of trust shown by the Emperor backfired spectacularly in the case of Magnus...... the one Primarch who could have understood properly the true nature of the warp. Kudos for not reading the thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 But the safety of a Galactic Empire is something they do have. And it is safe in the hands of the Warmaster. Whose loyalty is in doubt. And it is safe in the hands of the Warmaster. Context, Gree. Dont apply hindsight. So I'm not. The Emperor trusted Horus with the safety of the Imperium by giving him the title of Warmaster. No, he entrusted him with it's armies. Thus far, the only thing going against him is the claim of Magnus, who has royally screwed up by destroying one of the most important projects in human history. As well as warnings from the Eldar and Russ' own men. See above. I fail to see how that contridicts the eldar point at all. The Argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy. There is no hint in the fluff that it happened. Until there is, you cant apply it. Nope. We have the word of an Eldar Ranger that it happened. And there is nothing contridicting it at all. Therefore you cannot refute it. Prospero Burns explained why Russ and the Rune priests ignored it. Page 389. Knowledge of the Gods is not important here. Oh, I know why they ignored it. but the reasons he listed where after Magnus had already made his warning. In that case I'm afriad Russ was wrong to not inform the Emperor (If he never informed the Emperor) Re-read the interrogation of Eada Haelfwulf; it shows that the Space Wolves believed beasts from the warp can effect a man in such a way. Oh, I have. I just don't believe it to be valid at all, given the context of the situation. Whatever. I'm glad you understand. Kudos for not reading the thread. Careful. Your words are becoming more heated here. We are having a civilised discussion. I would like to keep it that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Sorry for going WAY back in the thread... "Flawed" orders is very opinionated. Remember, the Emperor is the smartest, most experienced man in the galaxy. He doesn't make orders on a whim. And he still can be wrong. That does not make him perfect or infallible at all. Take for example Nikea. The Emperor banned all psykers from the Astartes Legions and dismantled the Libarius. And yet, as the 41st Millenium showed us, the Emperor was...........wrong. Psykers where used with great skill to combat psykers and serve Astartes Chapters. In that aspect, Magnus's Librarian system was vindicated. Context. During the Great Crusade the less use of psykic powers the harder it is for the warp to spill out into the galaxy. Now that the crap hit the fan, psykers have their place. Fight fire with fire, so to speak. The Emperor had a purpose in his decision and I'm making the logical assumption that he knows the dangers of psykers even we might not know about because he's been alive since pretty much the dawn of man... I understand the big E isn't perfect or infallible because, after all, he is just a man. However, based on his experiences and actions (pretty much indirectly building Mankind) and our limited view of the situation I think it's safe to conclude he's more right than wrong. I'm glad Magnus's Librarian system was vindicated because I agreed with Magnus (to the extent of librarians not sorcery) at Nikea. However, I acknowledge the Emperor more than likely knows more about stuff in general than me or anyone there. The rest of my argument would just be echoing what tiberium40k said. And you have all my counters for said argument. And you have tiberium40k as my champion of truth and justice and stuff :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Context. During the Great Crusade the less use of psykic powers the harder it is for the warp to spill out into the galaxy. They did? Where is this wirtten in the fluff as policy for the Imperium during the Crusade? The mere existance of psykers is enough to draw warp attention. And what's the point of making a highly psyker-ridden legion if the Emperor did't want psychic powers being used in the first place? The Emperor had a purpose in his decision and I'm making the logical assumption that he knows the dangers of psykers even we might not know about because he's been alive since pretty much the dawn of man... Again, that does not make him automatically right or infallible. In fact warp powers had already been encountered during the Crusade. Mortarion's himself testifed to that fact. So the fire already existed so to speak. I understand the big E isn't perfect or infallible because, after all, he is just a man. However, based on his experiences and actions (pretty much indirectly building Mankind) and our limited view of the situation I think it's safe to conclude he's more right than wrong. No I'm afriad not. And you have tiberium40k as my champion of truth and justice and stuff :) That's nice. However I'm afriad nothing tiberium40m has convinced me at all nor have his arguments been especially difficult to counter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Context. During the Great Crusade the less use of psykic powers the harder it is for the warp to spill out into the galaxy. They did? Where is this wirtten in the fluff as policy for the Imperium during the Crusade? The mere existance of psykers is enough to draw warp attention. And what's the point of making a highly psyker-ridden legion if the Emperor did't want psychic powers being used in the first place? Again, I am not the Emperor. We really don't know for sure what he's thinking or why he does the things he does except in a narrow, bias frame of reference. The Emperor had a purpose in his decision and I'm making the logical assumption that he knows the dangers of psykers even we might not know about because he's been alive since pretty much the dawn of man... Again, that does not make him automatically right or infallible. Indeed, but it still doesn't make him wrong. Based on what we know his actions can be perceived as "wrong", but based on what he knows his actions could be "right". Once again we don't have the bigger picture... I understand the big E isn't perfect or infallible because, after all, he is just a man. However, based on his experiences and actions (pretty much indirectly building Mankind) and our limited view of the situation I think it's safe to conclude he's more right than wrong. No I'm afriad not. Ok...? Really, both sides of the issue are working with assumptions in a very limited frame of reference. It's really easy to counter someone's argument in this instance and frankly as WLK pointed out, makes the debate cyclical. I acknowledge the Emperor could be wrong; however, I think its more likely he's not wrong based on what I've said before. You could counter this easily. How we view the Emperor is based on our own opinions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Again, I am not the Emperor. We really don't know for sure what he's thinking or why he does the things he does except in a narrow, bias frame of reference. But we can observe his actions. Indeed, but it still doesn't make him wrong. Based on what we know his actions can be perceived as "wrong", but based on what he knows his actions could be "right". Once again we don't have the bigger picture... But we do in a way. We can see the benefit of hindsight. The Emperor does not. Ok...? I'm simply stating that I don't think the Emperor is more right than wrong, like you claimed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 as fun as it is watching people do circles, can we just agree that we're not going to agree on this subject and move on? WLK No, that's not the point of the forums. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Whose loyalty is in doubt. By a single, questionable source. No, he entrusted him with it's armies. According to the original trilogy, the title "Warmaster" made Horus the Emperor`s proxy. Now a proxy is a person authorized to act for another, so Horus was required to take over at least part of the empire running. Otherwise all those Administratum people wouldnt have bothered him as much as they did in Horus Rising. I fail to see how that contridicts the eldar point at all. That is your quote. Nope. We have the word of an Eldar Ranger that it happened. And there is nothing contridicting it at all. Therefore you cannot refute it. Simple logic can refute it. You assert that a proposition is necessarily true because it has not been proven false, which is a clear case of an argument from ignorance. Unless you can give me something that would back it up, Im not buying it because its hearsay from a Ranger ranting about how awesome Eldrad is. And there is also the fact we know from the books Eldrad only warned Fulgrim, not the Emperor, which I think McNeill did on purpose because of the arguments you put forward. Oh, I know why they ignored it. but the reasons he listed where after Magnus had already made his warning. In that case I'm afriad Russ was wrong to not inform the Emperor (If he never informed the Emperor) Based on that part of the book, it really looks like Russ discarded it alone. Oh, I have. I just don't believe it to be valid at all, given the context of the situation. *shrug* They do. And they are the ones interrogating him, not you. Careful. Your words are becoming more heated here. We are having a civilised discussion. I would like to keep it that way. That was heated? On AlternateHistory.com, its called sarcasm. Mea culpa, then. Besides, it wasnt even directed at you. However I'm afriad nothing tiberium40m has convinced me at all nor have his arguments been especially difficult to counter. I could say the same about you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 as fun as it is watching people do circles, can we just agree that we're not going to agree on this subject and move on? WLK No, that's not the point of the forums. Apparently not. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Perhaps now is the time to end our mud slinging contest? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Angron did not turn because he found out that Khorne exsisted; he turned because Horus gave him the freedom to slaughter indiscriminately. He then followed Khorne because it was the deiety that best suited him. No, no and no..... the fluff states that Horus played into Angron's sense of martial prowess and turned him against the Emperor. He was then shown a God who appreciated his efforts...... this was the cherry on the cake. The fact is Horus was convinced by Chaos that the Emperor was a bad man who was set out to claim all the glory and wanted to destroy the warp - which according to the ruinous powers was a harmless, sleepy village just outside of Guildford! This distorted view of reality was then passed on to all the traitor primarchs...... it was definitely not a case of "Hey Im Horus come and join my army" you buffoon! Did you even read the books? Horus does not say "join Chaos", he says "support ME in my campaign". The traitor Primarchs didnt not join him because they found out about gods or they wanted to worship Chaos. Me thinks its you that has not done his reading... For a start in the HH there are very few dialogues between Horus and the traitor primarchs that have Horus exact case being forward. All we do know is that whilst on Davin Horus was convinced by Chaos that.. 1) The Emperor was going to take all the glory for himself 2) The warp was a totally harmless entity that was being destroyed by the Emperor and that Chaos needed mighty Horus help to prevent this. It is only logical that is was this arguement that was put forward as part of his discussions with the traitor primarchs. They all were duped by the lie sold to Horus...... albeit indirectly. In Fulgrim you can tell that Horus has been well and truly duped when he realises that Fulgrim has been enslaved by the Daemon weapon, containing what in all probability was a Keeper of Secrets. He tentatively uses the word 'daemon' but you you can tell he has no real idea what it is...... he sure as hell does not realise that it represents a portion of the Chaos God Slaanesh!! Kudos for not reading the thread. No kudos for not being able to see the blindingly obvious. If the Emperor had divulged the true nature of the warp and the entities inside of it, then Horus and Lorgar would have been in a far better position not to be deceived and therefore wouldnt have passed on this information to their brothers.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2668954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 By a single, questionable source. No, by three sources actually. According to the original trilogy, the title "Warmaster" made Horus the Emperor`s proxy. Now a proxy is a person authorized to act for another, so Horus was required to take over at least part of the empire running. Otherwise all those Administratum people wouldnt have bothered him as much as they did in Horus Rising. And that just further proves my point. That is your quote. So it does not contridict me then? Simple logic can refute it. You assert that a proposition is necessarily true because it has not been proven false, which is a clear case of an argument from ignorance. Nope. I would have to disagree. You have not offered anything valid to change my mind on this point. And there is also the fact we know from the books Eldrad only warned Fulgrim, not the Emperor, which I think McNeill did on purpose because of the arguments you put forward. So you think, with no real proof. Based on that part of the book, it really looks like Russ discarded it alone. Oh, so Russ is at least partially responsible for the Heresy then? *shrug* They do. And they are the ones interrogating him, not you. And then suddenly the exact same unrelated thing pops up with Magnus. I don't think that would have been a coincidence.No, sorry, I don't buy that. That was heated? On AlternateHistory.com, its called sarcasm. Mea culpa, then. This is Bolter and Chainsword. We have different standards here. Besides, it wasnt even directed at you. It doesn't matter. I could say the same about you. You could. It would hardly matter though. I don't really think you are going to convince me on any of the points above. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222003-a-thousand-sons/page/6/#findComment-2669044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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