Why would you want Thunder Hammers?

[breng77]

Yeah, I knew that, as the Daemonhunter TH still does that, but the DA TH does not, as it is not stated that way in the codex.

[Darmor]

Yeah, I knew that, as the Daemonhunter TH still does that, but the DA TH does not, as it is not stated that way in the codex.

Actually, it is.

The victim strikes after I1 blows.

Codex > rulebook :o

[EPK]

Yeah, I knew that, as the Daemonhunter TH still does that, but the DA TH does not, as it is not stated that way in the codex.

Actually, it is.

The victim strikes after I1 blows.

Codex > rulebook :o

 

I think Darmor is correct. Page 52, "...may not attack again until initiative 1 blows are struck..."

 

It does not say they go when I1 blows STRIKE, it says STRUCK. So they go last. No?

 

The Space Marine codex simply refers you to page 42 of the Rule Book. The DA codex has the entry.

 

EDIT: Okay, maybe not...

[breng77]

Except in the codex it states that the model cannot strike until initiative 1 blows are struck, not until after initiative one blows are struck. THe Daemonhunters Codex TH (which works like you are assuming the DA book does), states that the model it wounds cannot attack until the End of the next assault phase. (Which can also stun lock a model)

 

It does not say they go when I1 blows STRIKE, it says STRUCK. So they go last. No?

 

Struck is correct grammer for using the word 'are' which is present tense. You would not say are strike, you could say are striking, but it is awkward. If you read the statement as when I1 blows are struck. Then it is simultaneous, if you read it after I1 blows are struck then it is after. I also think the fact that GW did not update the wording with the new FAQ could at least lean toward RAI, and it is certainly not a clear RAW situation.

[EPK]

So the key word is "after" (or something along those lines), which the DA codex is lacking.

 

The text is almost ambiguous enough to make you think it could mean either though, as it really needs a couple extra words to be most clear.

 

After doing some thinking, maybe breng is correct after all - it uses "are", a present tense word where, despite "struck", it would have used "have been" if it really meant after.

 

Edited my post, seemed confusing, lol...

 

Haha, breng, I see you were explaining it further as I was coming to the same conclusion.

[Bartali]

It's a problem with people not resetting their brains on a new edition. Thunder Hammers used to make models hit by them 'strike last' instead of setting them to I1. He needs to relearn his TH rules :D

 

To be honest, I've not really used our Thunder Hammers until after the recent FAQ changes and I've seen it interepeted both ways on the interwebs. How have you had it ruled on in tournaments ?

[breng77]

Never questioned the fact that it was enemy strikes at I1, and it comes up so rarely otherwise (only against MC with I higher than 1, T5 or higher models, and eternal warriors) I have never seen anyone try to play it differently to begin with. (Though I have rarely played other DA opponents to begin with, something that is likely to change in the near future)

 

I tend not to argue rules like that to try to game the system, if something is a gray area I will lean toward the less advantageous interpretation in most cases so as not to have to argue with every single opponent. The only exception to this tend to be if my opponent is trying to rules lawyer ever little advantage as well.

[Jack Hitchcock]

I'm italian so I have the italian codex, where is simply write tha the model wounded but not killed by the hammer attacks at initiative 1

[Dedecus]

I'm gonna go with the fact that we only have to hit a vehicle for it to be shaken, not actually inflict any damage... like almost everybody else. One small advantage we still have over those vanilla cats.

[Vaudix]

Also, I'm not sure if it was mentioned above but it is very handy against vehicles, as it always "shakes" them, less fire on your guys the better.

[Brother Nihm]

They look cool, they frag feth up (e.g. anything), and there is something medieval about heavily armored fighting monks/knights wielding war-hammers.

What more could you want really?

[HJL]

I just had my first game today with a squad of thunder hammer storm shield terminators and i must say they were incredible! they marched in front of the rest of my deathwing taking all of the shots and offering the guys behind a cover save.

[GlauG]

For what it's worth, I've not changed the makeup of my Deathwing squads from before the FAQ, with the exception of changing all heavy weapons for CMLs if they were Assault Cannons to save on points. Before, the TH/SS was nice for wound allocation, in CC in particular due to the 4++. Now that we have the 3++ Storm Shield save, I find that they often survive long enough to put some serious hurt on MCs and Eternal Warriors who are close combat monsters, the Swarmlords, Mephistons and Lysanders of this world. Especially if they're in Belial's squad, and the Big B is the initial target of the enemy. Also, Shaking Monoliths without needing to glance AV14 on S8 is extremely nice.

[breng77]

Except that shaking a monolith really does nothing in general, other than stop the Gauus Flux arc projectors, but the Monolith can still shoot its large blast.

[GlauG]

Considering that if you're close enough to be hitting it, it's getting x many shots at anything within range every turn and Terminators on foot aren't going to be running away fast enough to avoid that, I consider that very useful indeed! That, and if you're close enough to punch a monolith, that's going to make your opponent think twice about using the Energy Matrix to try and repair the Warriors, Destroyers etc you're beating up with the rest of your army to cause phase-out, as you'll just murder them in CC instead when they pop out of the portal, and if they try and Particle Whip those Terminators to clear them out, it's possible to scatter a S9 or 10 (I forget which) AP1 blast marker back onto the Monolith itself...

 

Not that I fight Necrons a lot or anything and have had any and all of this happen at various times. :cuss

[krewl]

That template is S9 AP3 (I just faced crons 2 times at a tournament last sunday, what are the odds..) and the monolith ignores shaken and stunned due to living metal rule.

 

So against any other tank bonus no shooting is great, except the monolith. It does count for a landraider though.

[GlauG]

Isn't it AP1 under the hole? Which is the only part which matters on a vehicle anyway. But didn't catch that it totally ignored stunned/shaken.

[breng77]

Yes I was not arguing that hitting a monolith with THs was per say bad, just that the shaken effect does nothing.

[krewl]

Isn't it AP1 under the hole? Which is the only part which matters on a vehicle anyway. But didn't catch that it totally ignored stunned/shaken.

Not unless I missed some entry.

It's S9 on the hole, S4,5 rounds up to 5 on the rest of the template.

It is ordenance though so it rolls 2 D6 for armour pen and takes the highest. which still hurt my speeders a bit when it deep struck on top of my lines.

 

And hitting a monolith IS bad with thunderhammers (Or any normal S8).

 

It ignores shacken and stunned, and weapon destroyed only causes -1 on the shots fired from the gaus flayer gun.

You could immobilise it on a 1 in 6 chance when you glance, but without Ap1 or higher strength you will never destroy it.

 

Potentially usefull is charging the front with the exit, hoping for an immobilised and blocking the exit so it can not use the 2nd WBB roll anymore.

but then you are grasping at straws as the odds are a bit low. (If all else fails or your unit has nothing else to do please go for it.)

[GlauG]

P14, Particle Whip entry, states that anything under the hole of the template is AP1. :rolleyes: But yes, the earlier point about Crew Stunned/Shaken already spoke for itself.

 

Also, most of the CSM players locally here tend to play lots of Defilers, so I'll be seeing how my TH/SS Deathwing hold up against those guys, too...

[shortysl]

In my Deathwing Assault Squad i have 2 Terminators with TH/SS and 3 with LC, and they are accompanied by Belial with TH/SS. This squad has plowed through everything that's gone up against them in the last half a dozen games i've played. Land Raiders, Venerable Dreadnoughts, Vanguard Veterans, Vindicators, mobs of Orks, you name it, they've gone through it. That's why i like Thunder Hammers. That, and after playing Fable 3 and using a hammer, i just love the image of a Terminator swinging his hammer up between an opponents legs and watching their head pop off! :(

[EPK]

That, and after playing Fable 3 and using a hammer, i just love the image of a Terminator swinging his hammer up between an opponents legs and watching their head pop off! :rolleyes:

 

Well this mental image is quite entertaining, I'll be thinking of it next time my Hammerers swing.

[Zincite]

1) You gets a 3+ Save, which makes you super 'ard.

 

2) Any Carnifex/Warboss/Tank that you run into isn't going to be fighting back much.

 

3) They just look plain cool, have you thought about what would happen if you hit a chaos cultist's head with a giant electrified hammer? ;)

[HollywoodSAF]

Why use thunder hammer.

Well when your DW Strike the enemy even the player you meet will feal it hurts!.

And getting the 3+ save is always good he he.

 

But mixing it can be good i use in a 5man squad 2 whit Lightning claws and 3 whit Hammer.

[HsojVvad]

Why do you want a 3+ save when you already have a 2+ save, or do you mean a 3++ save?