Why would you want Thunder Hammers?

[Brother Kovash]

Why do you want a 3+ save when you already have a 2+ save, or do you mean a 3++ save?

 

The storm shield gives you a 3++ invulnerable save. Much better than our regular 5++ invulnerable save.

 

I'm hoping to get my TH/SS bits from ebay in the mail, I built my DW before the FAQ came out.

[kizzap88]

Why do you want a 3+ save when you already have a 2+ save, or do you mean a 3++ save?

 

2+ armour 3+ invun.

[Komodo]

I playtested new DW loadout on our local tourney/company. (We play companies on turn-basis. 1 turn = 1 tournament).

 

My 1000 points list was:

 

HQ

1 Belial

Pair of lightning claws

 

Fast Attack

 

Ravenwing Support Squadron (Fast Attack)

1 Ravenwing Land Speeder Typhoon

Heavy Bolter; Typhoon missile launcher

 

Troops

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad (Troops)

Deathwing Company Banner

 

4 Deathwing Assault Terminators

Pair of lightning claws (x2); Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield (x2);

Cyclone missile launcher; Apothecary

 

1 Deathwing Terminator Sergeant

Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad

 

4 Deathwing Assault Terminators

Pair of lightning claws (x2); Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield (x2);

Cyclone missile launcher

 

1 Deathwing Terminator Sergeant

Pair of lightning claws

 

Heavy Support

9 Devastator Squad (Heavy Support)

Boltguns; Missile Launcher (x4)

 

1 Veteran Sergeant

Bolt Pistol; Power Fist

 

Worked extremely well, even against mech IG, thanks to all ML shots you have. As for the assaults, 3 TH 2 LC worked better than 2 TH 3 LC, I think all TH termies ain't good, LC guys a fair amount, providing less attacks after from lower Initiative squads. TH do the rest. :) Haven't lost assaults for 6 games at all. :)

[lord2800]

Thunder hammers are also great at killing Paladins (stupid two wound jerks *mutters*).

[Komodo]

And those 2 shot missile launchers are great against orks and other infantry heavy armies. 8-10 hits if you are lucky enough. -5 orks. You can beat even a 30-man ork squad into a pulp, if concentrate fire and then make an assault, defeating the rest in a bloody manner :)

[RayJ]

@Komodo,

 

That 1000 point list looks pretty familiar :D. I typically still manage to fit a small bike squad in at 1000 instead of the speeder though. Something like this:

 

130 Bels w/ LC

265 DW Command w/ Apothecary & CML, 5x TH/SS

240 DW w/ CML, 1x CF, 3x TH/SS

170 Devs w/ 4x ML

195 RW Attack Squadron 2x MG, 1x MB, 1x MMAB

 

It also gives me 3 scoring units.

[Grand Master Raziel]

It also gives me 3 scoring units.

 

No it doesn't. The Ravenwing Squadron doesn't score unless you took Sammael as an HQ choice.

 

You know, there's an often-unnoticed little gem in the DWT Squad - the sergeant can take a chainfist for +5pts. I don't know about you guys, but I find the power sword sergeant to be nearly completely useless, but I still find shooting Terminators to be very effective. So, I've got a squad where the sergeant gets a chainfist.

[RayJ]

I am so tired of having people not be able to read their own damned codex and bring up this point. ATTACK BIKES (and speeders) in Attack Squadrons (but not Support Squadrons) are always scoring units, regardless of being troops or fast attack. The other 3-6 bikes, however are dependent on whether they are troops or FA.

 

If the other bikes were scoring it'd be 4 Scoring units...

 

We've seriously had at least 4 threads on this subject in the last 6 months...

 

Back on topic: usually the DW Sergeant is kept the way he is to maximise wound allocation. In situations where that is not wanted, any of the other options is a worthy upgrade, and the chainfist is indeed a price steal. I find in most situations where I'd buy him a chainfist, it's no different than giving him LCs or TH/SS and another model the chainfist.

[kizzap88]

I think the issue with the Attack bike counting as scoring in the DA codex is because it is just so counter intuitive. I think where people get confused is that Sammy makes all RWA squads as TROOP Choices for the purpose of force organisations, and that getting the attack bike (which is a bike in the codex under RWA points list area) but it is on page 27 that it is stated that the AB and LS are counted as scoring units which act as independant.

 

I really think that someone should go make a sticky of the tricks of the trade for using the DA codex, as there are a couple of different tricks that can be used to get the most out of the codex that a lot of people don't realise.

 

-kizzap

[Bryan Blaire]

You also have to take into account that the concept of a "scoring unit" was in flux at the time the C:DA 4Ed was written. RAW and applied using new definitions that are different than when the Codex was initially written vs. RAI using new definitions to reinterpret an out of date Codex. So far as I can tell, which one you use is determined by the players or the tourney organizers. I've been at FLGSs that generally do it either way. If my/his/your opponent decides that he/she doesn't like the RAW, then there are only two choices, play using modified rules or don't play at all. I personally try not to dictate rules for other people's friendly games, and I certainly don't try to dictate the rules at tourneys unless I'm running them. Best just to ask before hand.

[Kaika87]

I think the issue with the Attack bike counting as scoring in the DA codex is because it is just so counter intuitive. I think where people get confused is that Sammy makes all RWA squads as TROOP Choices for the purpose of force organisations, and that getting the attack bike (which is a bike in the codex under RWA points list area) but it is on page 27 that it is stated that the AB and LS are counted as scoring units which act as independant.

 

I really think that someone should go make a sticky of the tricks of the trade for using the DA codex, as there are a couple of different tricks that can be used to get the most out of the codex that a lot of people don't realise.

 

-kizzap

 

Speaking of such tricks, is there any part of the DA codex that forbids you from putting a Standard-Bearer or Apothecary upgrade on a Terminator that already has the CML?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

OK. enough with the off topic discussion. there are threads on AB and bikes being scoring, just use search-fu.

 

back to Thunder hammer discussion please.

[kizzap88]

Speaking of such tricks, is there any part of the DA codex that forbids you from putting a Standard-Bearer or Apothecary upgrade on a Terminator that already has the CML?

 

No there is not, however it is kinda a redundant idea though. The idea of putting the CML on a non-already unique model is so that you can create an at minimum 4th different wound group, which is why you want to put it on a non-unique model (standard and apoth being unique)

 

AKA wound groups being (and to keep this relevant to the thread assume the squad is all running TH/SSs)

 

Sarg,

Pleb 1

Pleb 2 w/CML

Pleb 3 Apoth

Pleb 4 Standard

 

Of course this can be improved somewhat, by making either pleb 1 or the sarg take a different wargear loadout.

 

-kizzap

[Grand Master Raziel]

I am so tired of having people not be able to read their own damned codex and bring up this point. ATTACK BIKES (and speeders) in Attack Squadrons (but not Support Squadrons) are always scoring units, regardless of being troops or fast attack. The other 3-6 bikes, however are dependent on whether they are troops or FA.

 

Interesting. I'd lump that under rules-lawyerly shenanigans for the reasons Bryan Blaire mentioned, and would feel kind of dishonest trying to stand on that myself, but if that's what it says, that's what it says. Makes up a little bit for the RWA squadrons being so overpriced.

 

Back on topic: usually the DW Sergeant is kept the way he is to maximise wound allocation. In situations where that is not wanted, any of the other options is a worthy upgrade, and the chainfist is indeed a price steal. I find in most situations where I'd buy him a chainfist, it's no different than giving him LCs or TH/SS and another model the chainfist.

 

Having monkeyed with it either way, I've found having the single 2xLC or THSS Termie in a squad of shooty Termies to not add much in either close-combat or overall survivability, and I've felt the loss of the storm bolter. The power sword sergeant is nearly useless in close combat and thus almost always winds up being the first member of the squad I elect to take saves on, and thus the first casualty. Upgrading him to have the chainfist makes him useful, and because it lets you get rid of the anemic power sword, it's a bigger upgrade for the squad as a whole than if you took it on one of the regular squaddies.

 

Speaking of such tricks, is there any part of the DA codex that forbids you from putting a Standard-Bearer or Apothecary upgrade on a Terminator that already has the CML?

 

No, but a long view of how the rules have fluctuated might dictate against. In 3rd edition, DWT Squads could mix-and-match freely. In 4th edition, we had to buy them as seperate DWT Squads and DWT Assault Squads. We can now mix-and-match freely again, but who knows what the next edition is going to bring? If the next edition dex is worded slightly differently, then you won't be able to use your CML Apothecary/Standard Bearer, thus forcing you to replace what's probably the best customized and painted member of the squad.

 

Also, if you upgrade one figure too much, then you stand to lose a lot to one bad save. Plus, there's something to be said for mixed equipment for wound-allocation shenanigans.

[Isiah]

Makes up a little bit for the RWA squadrons being so overpriced.

 

Indeed and not being able to Turbo-boost while Scouting :). Don't feel bad about it GMR – remember it's not "rules-lawyering", just "rules" :P

 

 

The power sword sergeant is nearly useless in close combat and thus almost always winds up being the first member of the squad I elect to take saves on, and thus the first casualty. Upgrading him to have the chainfist makes him useful, and because it lets you get rid of the anemic power sword, it's a bigger upgrade for the squad as a whole than if you took it on one of the regular squaddies.

 

Good point on the chainfist – although he isn't totally useless in cc – he's just not as effective as fists, claws or hammers.

[krewl]

I actually leave the sarge as is, so he is unique inthe army. Then I stack rending hits on the sarges. (Or powerweapon, or fists etc etc.. )

This way I keep the guys alive who have the S8 (hammer, fist or chainfist.)

 

Keeping the CML on the banner guy is possible. Though it would cost a lot of converting you could do a apothecary, banner carrying, CML shooting, thunderrhammer and stormshield guy. Yes, all on one guy. I myself use TH&SS, CML and apotheary functions on the same guy. 90% of my games his keeps him in the game longeer with FnP, and those missiles. Every now and then you take a hive guard S8 missile on the guy and roll a 1 so he's dead...

 

Both options have pro's and cons. If you spread around the usefull bits the way I see it you lose something usefull whoever dies. The way I do it you can lose a basic TH &SS guy and keep much of your usefullness in the command squad. The spreading around spreads the costs and the bonuses so is equally valid I'd say.

 

And why would you take hammers? Because hammers (14 of them... ) helped me win last saturdays tournament. :P Even Fateweaver turned out to have issues with 3 squads of thunderhammer guys hitting him in the invulnerable bits.. :P (Personal victory for me, as I hate that guy and never get him killed.)

 

Edit: Also, if you do not care about the 2 SB shots, you could add twin claws on the sarges, also for free so an option to look into. Still unique so you can sarcifice him, and more cc power.