Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Gree]

Maybe, its not so much as being corrupted, as being killed out right by the bloodtide.

 

They walked right up to the Bloodthirster and killed it, the Bloodtide was repulsed by the blood of the Sisters. They walked unscathed through a daemonic force that obliterated star systems

 

That reason enough for you? :RTBBB:

 

The passage doesn't really imply the Bloodtide is a kind of super-daemonic acid, but more of a corrupting horde of Khornate daemosn and blood, nethier of which should present a problem to Grey Knights.

[Inache]

Well going off the Hunt for Voldorius, and other mentions of the bloodtide in fluff, it's responsible for the death of billions. So, yeah, I guess walking up to a daemonic force that's responsible for the death of billions, all the Grey Knights face is corruption. Not death. Nah, definitely not death.

[Senseilord Ashahara]

If you'll be using the monkeys or the chap with the daemonblade in this codex, you're a heretic.

 

If you use the Papouse Of Doom you're just daft.

[Gree]

Well going off the Hunt for Voldorius, and other mentions of the bloodtide in fluff, it's responsible for the death of billions. So, yeah, I guess walking up to a daemonic force that's responsible for the death of billions, all the Grey Knights face is corruption. Not death. Nah, definitely not death.

 

The Bloodtide in Hunt for Voldorious is not the same Bloodtide described in the GK Codex. I know. I've read both. Appearantly Ward never read the book. The Bloodtide is mentioned to have an effect of turning people into berserkers. I believe pretty much the local PDF was corrupted by it.

[Irbis]

This is why Ward's fluff if bad. It makes Malcador and the Emperor look like hypocrites.

 

Duh, because they are hypocrites.

 

Having warp enetites run alongside you in battle( The Ghost Knight Linkin Park angst thing)

 

Said warp entities being souls of slain Grey Knights who vowed to remain bound to materium until arch-enemy of the Imperium is slain.

 

Yesss, they would be instantly purged by the other GK, instead of being hailed as paragons of duty and dedication :)

 

I won't even comment on criticising Ward by trying to find hole in encyclopaedic definition of 'martyr' and elevating 'incorruptibility' of GK to past-Emperor status, I'll only facepalm and ask why the Eye of Terror is still around if they're so good, and why the same people who now claim they're 'incorruptible' attacked Ward for the fact Draigo spent time in Warp without being corrupted :wacko:

 

Myself, I'll just accept the most obvious answer, that GK might be impervious to warp touch, but their equipment was on the verge of being overloaded and mutated, wards or not, and they had to strengthen them somehow to walk to the source of corruption. Without being killed by now possessed halberds and swords. But, please, don't try to combat this simple explanation with asking what the definition of the word 'sword' or 'simple' :P

[Inache]

The Bloodtide in Hunt for Voldorious is not the same Bloodtide described in the GK Codex. I know. I've read both. Appearantly Ward never read the book. The Bloodtide is mentioned to have an effect of turning people into berserkers. I believe pretty much the local PDF was corrupted by it.

 

Because Chaos is always the same.

[Gree]

This is why Ward's fluff if bad. It makes Malcador and the Emperor look like hypocrites.

 

Duh, because they are hypocrites.

 

I knew it.

 

 

Said warp entities being souls of slain Grey Knights who vowed to remain bound to materium until arch-enemy of the Imperium is slain.

 

Yesss, they would be instantly purged by the other GK, instead of being hailed as paragons of duty and dedication :)

 

As they should. Not even a possibility of corruption should be allowed to affect the grey Knights. The mere prescense of those ghosts should have Mordrak executed and his remains cleansed and warded.

 

and elevating 'incorruptibility' of GK to past-Emperor status,

 

Ward did that not me. I'm only repeating his fluff in that case.

 

I'll only facepalm and ask why the Eye of Terror is still around if they're so good, and why the same people who now claim they're 'incorruptible' attacked Ward for the fact Draigo spent time in Warp without being corrupted :wacko:

 

Ask Ward.

 

Myself, I'll just accept the most obvious answer, that GK might be impervious to warp touch, but their equipment was on the verge of being overloaded and mutated, wards or not, and they had to strengthen them somehow to walk to the source of corruption. Without being killed by now possessed halberds and swords. But, please, don't try to combat this simple explanation with asking what the definition of the word 'sword' or 'simple' :P

 

Except that's not implied whatsoever. The Grey Knights Aegis suit is made to resist that sort of thing, and the Nemsis weapons are psychically attued to them. there should be practically zero sense of corruption.

 

Because Chaos is always the same.

 

In general. However the function, appearance and date of when the Bloodtide appeard in Hunt for Voldorious is almost completely different than in the GK Codex. In the GK Code the Bloodtide is relased as a result of a ward containing a Khornate daemon being removed. In Hunt for Voldorious it's appearantly some sort of daemon nanovirus thing that Voldorious himself keeps as a perosnal weapon.

 

You can't compare the two.

[Inache]

In general. However the function, appearance and date of when the Bloodtide appeard in Hunt for Voldorious is almost completely different than in the GK Codex. In the GK Code the Bloodtide is relased as a result of a ward containing a Khornate daemon being removed. In Hunt for Voldorious it's appearantly some sort of daemon nanovirus thing that Voldorious himself keeps as a perosnal weapon.

 

You can't compare the two.

 

Is a date provided in the GK Codex? The Bloodtide was awakened in M38, Hunt for Voldorius takes places sometime in M40 at the latest. That's over 2,000 years that Chaos had access to the Bloodtide. Any number of things could have happened. Including the merging of a Bloodthirster and the Bloodtide, akin to what Voldorius was trying to do with a human.

[sonofblood]

I think this classification of what is "Chaos" Sorcery or not can be broken down into a more indepth and logical view.

 

First, you have Psykers/Psychic abilities, these are "plain" everyday abilities used by combat psykers or Astropaths, Navigators, etc.

 

Second, you then have Sorcerors/Sorcerous abilites, these are more ritualised and planned out. The psychic wards of the Grey Knights armor is sorcery, where as a Space Wolf Rune Priest summoning up a storm in the heat of battle would be "psychic".

 

Lastly, you have "Chaos" Sorcery, which isn't so much like regular sorcery in execution. "Chaos" Sorcery, unlike regular sorcery(which should deal with the how it is executed rather then with what it is executed or the purpose) deals with using the power of daemons or the help of daemons or a contract with daemons to obtain power or channel power.

 

I think to many people are looking at the "Why" and screaming "heretic!" instead of the "how" which is really what matters when it comes to Psychic abilities and anything involving sorcery. There is even a quote from a Grandmaster explaining the Grey Knight's use of "Sorcery" as being "Indistinguishable to the common man between sorcery and the power of daemons." Or some such and claiming anyone who thinks the Grey Knights use of Sorcery is daemonic is a fool.

[Gree]

Is a date provided in the GK Codex? The Bloodtide was awakened in M38, Hunt for Voldorius takes places sometime in M40 at the latest. That's over 2,000 years that Chaos had access to the Bloodtide. Any number of things could have happened. Including the merging of a Bloodthirster and the Bloodtide, akin to what Voldorius was trying to do with a human.

 

The date, as with all of the events in the GK Codex, takes place within the last 200 years. I don't recall the exact one, but it was somewhere in the last century of M41.

 

Look, the codices have contridicted Black Library books before. It's not a new thing.

 

I think this classification of what is "Chaos" Sorcery or not can be broken down into a more indepth and logical view.

 

First, you have Psykers/Psychic abilities, these are "plain" everyday abilities used by combat psykers or Astropaths, Navigators, etc.

 

Second, you then have Sorcerors/Sorcerous abilites, these are more ritualised and planned out. The psychic wards of the Grey Knights armor is sorcery, where as a Space Wolf Rune Priest summoning up a storm in the heat of battle would be "psychic".

 

No, we already have an explanation on that, coutresy of Dark Heresy.

[Inache]

No, we already have an explanation on that, coutresy of Dark Heresy.

Look, the codices have contradicted Fantasy Flight books before. It's not a new thing.

 

And so in the course of about 3,000 years and exposure to chaos the Bloodtide couldn't have been corrupted to serve Khorne? What is this thing? A Grey Knight?

[Gree]

No, we already have an explanation on that, coutresy of Dark Heresy.

Look, the codices have contradicted Fantasy Flight books before. It's not a new thing.

 

So then you accept my point on me being right about the Bloodtide? You ethier accept that or the sorcery one.

 

Of course I have backup for the sorcery thing being connected to Chaos(the Whole Nikea thing with the Librarians) you don't with the Bloodtide, something that has appeared rarely in the 40k mythos.

 

And so in the course of about 3,000 years and exposure to chaos the Bloodtide couldn't have been corrupted to serve Khorne? What is this thing? A Grey Knight?

 

Actually Hunt for Voldorious takes place in 871. M41. The GK incident takes place around the same time or after. If you would finish reading Hunt for Voldorious you would know that the Bloodtide is

taken away by the Raven Guard at the end.

Anyway in Hunt for Voldorious the thing does not serve Khorne.

 

Plus the Bloodtide in the GK Codex was sealed away. In the book Voldorious has it.

 

The Codex also contridicts other books. M'kar the Reborn is active and fighting in 997 despite being sealed away inside a Star Fort in Chapter's Due at the time.

[Inache]

Actually I just finished The Hunt a few minutes ago. I'll agree that the fluff on the Bloodtides don't jive very well, but that doesn't mean it's the only one, or even a scion of the original that was sealed away after Voldorius first awakened it. Either way without clarification we can't know for sure. At the very least Bloodthrister with Bloodtide like abilities is rampaging, Grey Knights use pure blood to construct wards to drive back the tide of blood, and vanquish the daemon. Plus

The Raven Guard don't take the Bloodtide, they only take the woman, who was not implanted with it. The Raven Guard trio with the scouts kill the main body, and then the White Scars Scout-Sergeant destroys what was in the vial

 

 

And considering M'Kar was active in 997M41 playing with with the Agri-world of Sondheim V I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Chapter's Due isn't set exactly when you think it is.

 

In addendum, the Prologue and Epilogue of The Hunt list the record as being in M40, where are you getting your date?

[Brother Valerius]

Said warp entities being souls of slain Grey Knights who vowed to remain bound to materium until arch-enemy of the Imperium is slain.

 

Yesss, they would be instantly purged by the other GK, instead of being hailed as paragons of duty and dedication :)

 

As they should. Not even a possibility of corruption should be allowed to affect the grey Knights. The mere prescense of those ghosts should have Mordrak executed and his remains cleansed and warded.

 

wat. You and I have entirely different ideas of what constitutes purity if you think that someone should be executed for fighting alongside the venerated souls of fallen brothers. That's ridiculous.

[Gree]

Actually I just finished The Hunt a few minutes ago. I'll agree that the fluff on the Bloodtides don't jive very well, but that doesn't mean it's the only one, or even a scion of the original that was sealed away after Voldorius first awakened it. Either way without clarification we can't know for sure. At the very least Bloodthrister with Bloodtide like abilities is rampaging, Grey Knights use pure blood to construct wards to drive back the tide of blood, and vanquish the daemon. Plus

The Raven Guard don't take the Bloodtide, they only take the woman, who was not implanted with it. The Raven Guard trio with the scouts kill the main body, and then the White Scars Scout-Sergeant destroys what was in the vial

 

 

So the Bloodtide at the end was essentially destroyed. More proof for me.

 

 

The Bloodtide in the GK Codex isn't a nanovirus. It probably just shares the same name.

 

And considering M'Kar was active in 997M41 playing with with the Agri-world of Sondheim V I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Chapter's Due isn't set exactly when you think it is.

 

Actually it is. M'kar is stated to have invaded Ultramar in 999. That's when the book takes place. Around that date. The Ventris books take place after 997. M'kar had been sealed away for quite some time according to both M'kar and Calgar himself. he could't have been at Sondheim V because he was sealed away.

 

wat. You and I have entirely different ideas of what constitutes purity if you think that someone should be executed for fighting alongside the venerated souls of fallen brothers. That's ridiculous.

 

they are the undead souls linked to the warp itself, the land of daemons aand the playground of Chaos. For all the GK know they could be some sort of Chaos trick. It's better to be safe than sorry.

[Inache]

Not really more proof for you, since that means that it is either another Bloodtide, one that's been influenced by Khorne, or a remnant of the original left behind by Voldorius that was given as a gift to Khorne then sealed away for later. Or it's a daemon that adopted the properties of the Bloodtide on its own. In any case it shares the name and has similar properties. Either way, Bloodtide + Khorne = no good

 

Well, I think the Tyranid codex doesn't agree with you then. Because I'm looking at a map of the galaxy on p.28 right now I'm I'm pretty sure he was playing tango with Carnifexes at some point during 997. Now Calgar did tear M'Kar limb from limb aboard a starfort in 937 according to the SM codex, but as he has a nasty tendency to pop up over and over again, I think he was fine by 997.

[Gree]

Not really more proof for you, since that means that it is either another Bloodtide, one that's been influenced by Khorne, or a remnant of the original left behind by Voldorius that was given as a gift to Khorne then sealed away for later. Either way, Bloodtide + Khorne = no good

 

No, that doesn't have to mean it's that Bloodtide at all, or that the two are even related beyond the same time.

 

Well, I think the Tyranid codex doesn't agree with you then. Because I'm looking at a map of the galaxy on p.28 right now I'm I'm pretty sure he was playing tango with Carnifexes at some point during 997. Now Calgar did tear M'Kar limb from limb aboard a starfort in 937 according to the SM codex, but as he has a nasty tendency to pop up over and over again, I think he was fine by 997.

 

Chapter's Due and Iron Warrior, the accompanying novella, both have M'kar tightly sealed away at that time. Calgar even states that him ripping M'kar limb from limb was false. Instead he merely sealed M'kar away. It's a major plot point in Chapter's Due and the accompanying novella that M'kar has been sealed away in a star fort by the Inquisiton since 937.

 

The Ventris novels meanwhile take place around or after 999. In Dead Sky Black Sun, the one of the prequals to Chapter's Due, the 13th Black Crusade is already in full swing. Chapter's Due meanwhile takes place after that.

 

The Codex contridicts the books. It's happened many times before and it will happen many times in the future.

[Inache]

Besides the obvious similarities, such as blood rushing out of bodies, killing whole populations, you know, Bloodtide stuff. There is a similarity there beyond the name.

 

Well seeing as I wasn't planning on picking it up until it came out in paperback, I can't comment on that, but 2 codices disagree with it. I don't doubt that Calgar thought he sealed him, but all evidence points to the contrary.

[Gree]

Besides the obvious similarities, such as blood rushing out of bodies, killing whole populations, you know, Bloodtide stuff. There is a similarity there beyond the name.

 

Except the one in Voldorious was a nanovirus. the one in the GK Codex was more of a horde.

 

Well seeing as I wasn't planning on picking it up until it came out in paperback, I can't comment on that, but 2 codices disagree with it. I don't doubt that Calgar thought he sealed him, but all evidence points to the contrary.

 

We have an entire novella dedicated to Honsou freeing M'kar. Seriously, that's what the novella was about. Him freeing M'kar. It's 90 pages in Iron Warrior of Honsou fightign to extract him form the Starfort. We have an Inquistorial agent panicking that the seal is being broken. We have M'kar himself breaking free and using a dreadnought shell to live in and he himself commenting that he was saled away both in the novella and in the book. He was most defnitely sealed away.

 

The codices have contridicted the black library books many times. I can pull out a list of examples if you want.

[Inache]

I'm not one to say codex trumps BL, but if you're going off codex accuracy, then the codices say he was out.

 

And it doesn't really matter what exactly constituted the Bloodtide, beyond the fact that in the GK codex it's daemonic, dangerous, and very killy. By that standard the Grey Knights acted with extreme prejudice to kill it, and they did.

 

And I'm not trying to get into a what exactly is canon debate. I just want to defend my GK's from the hate.

[Gree]

I'm not one to say codex trumps BL, but if you're going off codex accuracy, then the codices say he was out.

 

I'm pointing out that we can't take one over the other nessecarily.

 

And it doesn't really matter what exactly constituted the Bloodtide, beyond the fact that in the GK codex it's daemonic, dangerous, and very killy. By that standard the Grey Knights acted with extreme prejudice to kill it, and they did.

 

Except they should't have had to take any of the measures if the really where as incorruptable as Ward claims they are.

 

And I'm not trying to get into a what exactly is canon debate. I just want to defend my GK's from the hate.

 

And I want to tear apart Ward's terrible writing.

[Inache]

Yeah, they shouldn't take measures to protect themselves. They're so silly for wearing armor, and having hexagramic wards of silver laced into their skin, and do they really need to be mindwiped and rebuilt from the ground up into Grey Knights?

 

Going into battle against the daemon you take every bit of help you can get, be it physical or spiritual protection.

 

And pointing out we can't take one over the other by saying,

He was most defnitely sealed away

Not really working so well.

[Gree]

Yeah, they shouldn't take measures to protect themselves. They're so silly for wearing armor, and having hexagramic wards of silver laced into their skin, and do they really need to be mindwiped and rebuilt from the ground up into Grey Knights?

 

Going into battle against the daemon you take every bit of help you can get, be it physical or spiritual protection.

 

Are you implying that Grey Knights slaughter innocents and perform unclean sorcery before every battle?

 

And pointing out we can't take one over the other by saying,

He was most defnitely sealed away

Not really working so well.

 

If you don't believe me I can get my book and type out quotes from both the novella and the book. It would take awhile, but I could do it.

[Fredegar Kadere]

Back in the day the Grey Knights and Adepta Sororitas were distrustful allies! Ward is bringing it back and setting the Sororitas to be the personal force of the Ecclesiarchy and the enforcer of the Imperial Creed.

 

The timeline blurb did not mention the exact reasons and way that the Sororitas blood was being used. The text left things somewhat generic and up to the imagination. It may have been used to contain the Bloodtide presence to the Cathedral and prevent it from spreading throughout the planet. It may have helped buff their armor from a tarnished silver to a shiny gleaming silver, causing the daemons to shield their eyes from the horrible sight. It may have functioned as an improved invulnerable save as the Knights delved deeper into the chaotic landscape, helping to stave off the attacks of daemons or whatever this bloodtide bloodthirster thing was. The Sororitas unwavering faith in the Emperor does grant them an invulnerable save in game known as Spirit of the Martyr when enough of the Sisterhood have been laid low. A simple enough fluff creation for an in game effect.

 

Most of all it does provide some justifications for why the Battle Sisters will cross paths with the Grey Knights.

 

At the end of the day this is not the first time that the Grey Knights have eradicated all traces of taint or knowledge of said taint, and it will not be their last. It is better to consign untold billions to oblivion than to allow a single tainted soul to live.

 

As to the debate about the Grey Knights making use of Sorcery, I believe the subject of sorcery is brought up early in the codex when it speaks about the Founding and history of the Grey Knights. I'd have to reread it, but I did not get the feeling that they were using chaos cult rituals and praising the Dark Gods to gain their powers.

[Brother Valerius]

wat. You and I have entirely different ideas of what constitutes purity if you think that someone should be executed for fighting alongside the venerated souls of fallen brothers. That's ridiculous.

 

they are the undead souls linked to the warp itself, the land of daemons aand the playground of Chaos. For all the GK know they could be some sort of Chaos trick. It's better to be safe than sorry.

 

Nah. He subjected himself to examination for purity, he was examined (presumably extremely rigorously), and was found to be pure of any taint. It's pretty provable that they aren't a Chaos trick, since they would have detected it with such a thorough examination.