Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Gree]

wat. You and I have entirely different ideas of what constitutes purity if you think that someone should be executed for fighting alongside the venerated souls of fallen brothers. That's ridiculous.

 

they are the undead souls linked to the warp itself, the land of daemons aand the playground of Chaos. For all the GK know they could be some sort of Chaos trick. It's better to be safe than sorry.

 

Nah. He subjected himself to examination for purity, he was examined (presumably extremely rigorously), and was found to be pure of any taint. It's pretty provable that they aren't a Chaos trick, since they would have detected it with such a thorough examination.

 

that sounds like a rather porr jutsification from Ward. The Old Grey Knights from the previous Codex would have executed Mordrak in an instant.

[Inache]

Oh really? Where in Codex: Daemonhunters did it say that the Grey Knights would do that? Or would they use rigorous purity tests to determine that there isn't corruption present. I don't know, like what they did with Uriel Ventris in The Killing Ground? I'm just saying since you seem to hold Mr. McNeill's in such high regard.

[Vindicatus]

I'm more inclined to think, in Mordrak's case, that he'd be treated as a heathen until proven otherwise (thus the tests). Some may view it as witchery, though I trend to think of it as the Emperor allowing the spirits of the slain to aide their commander in his direst of times, much how the Emperor occasionally blesses a soul to become a Living Saint to retake or purify a faltering section of the Imperium.

 

Just a personal take on it, but I kind of like the fluff there (surprisingly), compared to some of the other trash floating around.

[Notanoob]

Back in the day the Grey Knights and Adepta Sororitas were distrustful allies! Ward is bringing it back and setting the Sororitas to be the personal force of the Ecclesiarchy and the enforcer of the Imperial Creed.

 

The timeline blurb did not mention the exact reasons and way that the Sororitas blood was being used. The text left things somewhat generic and up to the imagination. It may have been used to contain the Bloodtide presence to the Cathedral and prevent it from spreading throughout the planet. It may have helped buff their armor from a tarnished silver to a shiny gleaming silver, causing the daemons to shield their eyes from the horrible sight. It may have functioned as an improved invulnerable save as the Knights delved deeper into the chaotic landscape, helping to stave off the attacks of daemons or whatever this bloodtide bloodthirster thing was. The Sororitas unwavering faith in the Emperor does grant them an invulnerable save in game known as Spirit of the Martyr when enough of the Sisterhood have been laid low. A simple enough fluff creation for an in game effect.

 

Most of all it does provide some justifications for why the Battle Sisters will cross paths with the Grey Knights.

 

At the end of the day this is not the first time that the Grey Knights have eradicated all traces of taint or knowledge of said taint, and it will not be their last. It is better to consign untold billions to oblivion than to allow a single tainted soul to live.

 

As to the debate about the Grey Knights making use of Sorcery, I believe the subject of sorcery is brought up early in the codex when it speaks about the Founding and history of the Grey Knights. I'd have to reread it, but I did not get the feeling that they were using chaos cult rituals and praising the Dark Gods to gain their powers.

But this had nothing to do with trust.

 

Yes, we're known for team killing so that people don't know about Chaos and such. However, we have never team-killed shining examples of purity above the incorruptible (never any falls to chaos) Grey Knights in the middle of battle. If anything, the GK would appreciate allies that could help them beyond the first few minutes, and fight with them to destroy Chaos then kill them for relics or something and to keep knowledge of Chaos sealed with them.

 

But killing them when you've just shown up? Anyways.

 

GK=incorruptible

no falls to chaos ever

Sororitas=nuns

probably some falls to chaos, there are even quotes of them despairing in their codex

Sororitas<GK with regards to corruptibility

yet here suddenly Sororitas>GK yet total expendable in the GK's eyes, and then bathing themselves in their blood is somehow necessary to prevent corruption, despite being incorruptible anyways.

 

It just doesn't make sense, plain and simple.

 

 

Mordrak's okay, as they do mention the purity test, but it seems odd that only he has ghosts following him around and no-one else.

 

Thrawn actually has zero justification for his revivals, so screw him.

 

Carrying around a weapon that is actively corrupting others and putting it on the battlefield where people could take it if they slay a W1 character who can't join units is just dumb, he clearly isn't nullifying it, so why is it so important that he carry it if it's trying to corrupt the GKs around him and failing? It should be in a vault if the regular GK's that sit next to him in a thunderhawk have no problem with it, as the Librarians shouldn't either. Crowe can screw himself.

 

Draigo? Yeah, he's a little OTT. Avoid corruption? I guess that's fine, as they're supposed to be hard to corrupt, but toppling walls onto greater demons is just nuts, he should have been killed right there. Nor should he have Grand Strategy and make Paladins as troops if he can only show up randomly via warp rifts. In fact, he should just be a background character with no table top representation.

 

But the worst thing is the Mortation bit. It is clearly established that he has not left his demon world since the HH. So how is Draigo getting to him in the first place? He wasn't sucked into the warp at this point, and I have never ever head of GK's going into the warp to attack demons. It's always been responding to demonic incursions.

 

So yeah, the Mortarion thing just doesn't seem possible, and even because of relative power levels.

[RolandTHTG]

Maybe, its not so much as being corrupted, as being killed out right by the bloodtide.

 

They walked right up to the Bloodthirster and killed it, the Bloodtide was repulsed by the blood of the Sisters. They walked unscathed through a daemonic force that obliterated star systems

 

That reason enough for you? B)

 

Yes, If I was a grey knight facing off against a whole horde of deomons, I'd use what ever weapons possible to make it to the center of the horde, where I could banish the whole thing.

Remember, In incidences such as the first war for Armageddon, while grey knights may be incorruptible, they can get broken and killed like any other mortal. How many survived going against Angron and his blood thirster bodyguard? If they killed the sisters so that, I don't know, Could walk through the Bloodtide and only have to fight the Bloodthirster at the center of it, instead of carving through a planet's worth of deamons, I think that that would be a worthy sacrifice for cause.

[Gree]

Oh really? Where in Codex: Daemonhunters did it say that the Grey Knights would do that?

 

Not say, but imply. You could not fight alongside Inquistors who had daemonhosts.

 

Or would they use rigorous purity tests to determine that there isn't corruption present. I don't know, like what they did with Uriel Ventris in The Killing Ground?

 

I actually thought that was stupid in the Killing Ground, it's one of the few complaints I have about it.

 

I admit to liking Ventris, but the Grey Knights should have executed or at least mindwiped him after he spent some time one a daemon world.

 

Even in Ward's Codex they do the same to other Astartes who merely fight alongside the daemonic.

 

I'm just saying since you seem to hold Mr. McNeill's in such high regard.

 

I don't hold McNeill higher than any other BL author.

[Iron Lord]

Oh really? Where in Codex: Daemonhunters did it say that the Grey Knights would do that?

 

Not say, but imply. You could not fight alongside Inquistors who had daemonhosts.

 

Maybe they've decided to start moving away from "getting caught with a daemonhost is grounds for excommunication"?

 

If the "present-day" inquisition has a higher tolerance, within its ranks, for the use of this sort of thing, and the Grey Knights tend not to take sides over puritan vs radical (like the Deathwatch in that respect)- then the idea of them fighting alongside an Inquisitor's daemonhosts, becomes a little less odd.

[Vindicatus]

Save for the fact that, up until Ward was allowed to touch pen to paper in regards to the new fluff, the Grey Knight's were redonkulously puritanical in the utmost.

[Brother Valerius]

Not fighting alongside a daemonhost is entirely reasonable. Killing or mind-wiping someone simply because they had been exposed to daemons isn't, especially as the Grey Knights themselves know it's possible to be pure enough to resist the taint. Sure, kill or mind-wipe someone if they fail rigorous purity testing, but there's no reason to do it before such testing. That's not puritanical, that's just stupid.

[Eddie Orlock]

Not fighting alongside a daemonhost is entirely reasonable. Killing or mind-wiping someone simply because they had been exposed to daemons isn't, especially as the Grey Knights themselves know it's possible to be pure enough to resist the taint. Sure, kill or mind-wipe someone if they fail rigorous purity testing, but there's no reason to do it before such testing. That's not puritanical, that's just stupid.

Rigorour purity testing is time consuming and complex and thus costly. Las blasts and sword strikes are cheap. Citizens are expendable. I thought the conclusion was obvious.

 

A rare or valuable comodity, like a Marine, might be worth a salvage attempt, but this is based on biological hardware alone. It might be easier to just harvest the progeniods and return the gear to the chapter.

[Brother Valerius]

Yes, but these aren't citizens we're talking about, this is a Space Marine captain and a Grey Knights grand master. Those aren't something you throw away without checking first.

[Validar]

still... Imagen you're fighting an ork horde/eldar warhost/tau battleforce

 

Inquisitor: 'eya grand master, while you take care of this xenos scum, I'll just grap my Deamon Weapon so me and my three buddies Deamon 1, 2 and 3 can help out on the left flank.

 

If YOU were that incorruptibly and super pure Grey Knight, taught to wrap your psychic mind about yourself to protect you from deamons, indoctrinated to "You must tell the Daemon from his disguise and root him out from the hidden places. Trust no one. Trust not even yourself. It is better to die in vain than to live in abomination" (first book of indoctrinations, pp 3, C: DH) and send to stop deamon invasions on countless worlds - how would YOU react?

 

would you:

 

"Sure, Inquisitor mate, let your deamons manhandle these xenos scumbags good! Give 'em a good wack with that cursed blade of yours from me!"

 

or

 

"... Wait a minute...!"

[Iron Man I]

After reading the fluff about the Grey Knights and the SoB I couldnt help but make this pic....

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb222/ironmanitfw/Gk221.jpg

[Iron Lord]

Inquisitor: 'eya grand master, while you take care of this xenos scum, I'll just grap my Deamon Weapon so me and my three buddies Deamon 1, 2 and 3 can help out on the left flank.

 

If YOU were that incorruptibly and super pure Grey Knight, taught to wrap your psychic mind about yourself to protect you from deamons, indoctrinated to "You must tell the Daemon from his disguise and root him out from the hidden places. Trust no one. Trust not even yourself. It is better to die in vain than to live in abomination" (first book of indoctrinations, pp 3, C: DH) and send to stop deamon invasions on countless worlds - how would YOU react?

 

would you:

 

"Sure, Inquisitor mate, let your deamons manhandle these xenos scumbags good! Give 'em a good wack with that cursed blade of yours from me!"

 

Main difference is that daemonblades aren't quite the same as daemon weapons- being heavily bound. Same is true of daemonhosts for that matter.

[Eddie Orlock]

Main difference is that daemonblades aren't quite the same as daemon weapons- being heavily bound. Same is true of daemonhosts for that matter.

I don't think they're gonna let you off on a technicality there, Inquisitor. :(

 

"I swear it's not a 'deamonweapon' Brother-Captain, it's more of a 'deamontool'. The bound Fleshhound simply keeps the edge of my letter opener razor sharp, and it's not like my envelopes have souls for it to feast upon. You might have a case if I ever slit anyones throat with it. Well, anyone that wans't an enemy of the Emperor. It's not like I listen to the wisperings of the knife. Often."

 

:lol:

[Iron Lord]

This is the same inquisition that sanctions the use of alien tech (and even aliens in their group) on occasion. In the Kal Jerico comics, the Inquisitor in that wields a shuriken pistol and has a Kroot as a group member.

 

Before the Inquisitor game came out, the idea that Inquistors would use daemon weapons would have seemed a bit odd- but then we got Inquisitors that used them. And novels with such inquisitors- the Eisenhorn trilogy.

 

Maybe it's just carrying the trend a bit further- they not only use these tools (with a degree of caution) they no longer automatically get outlawed by the rest of the Inquisition for doing this.

 

A daemon weapon covered in purity seals and Inquisitorial symbols, is a bit different from an "unrestrained" one.

[AlexHolker]

Maybe it's just carrying the trend a bit further- they not only use these tools (with a degree of caution) they no longer automatically get outlawed by the rest of the Inquisition for doing this.

So let me get this straight: a Radical using daemons is A-ok in the Inquisition's eyes, but a Puritan hunting down a heretic that associates with daemons and giving him a Prometheum bath is taboo? You do realise the "rest of the Inquisition" you mentioned are the Puritans, right?

 

You are willing to butcher older, better fluff to give Ward's abominations room to exist. Why?

[Eddie Orlock]

This is the same inquisition that sanctions the use of alien tech (and even aliens in their group) on occasion. In the Kal Jerico comics, the Inquisitor in that wields a shuriken pistol and has a Kroot as a group member.

The difference being that the Eldar aren't fire and brimstone Evil. Most xeno aren't. Daemons and the stuff of the Warp is. The current Xenophobia is a departure from historical stances, just as the use of daemonic letter openers is.

 

Dunno, maybe the feel safer with the Deamonettes who they know want to swallow their souls than the Eldar who's motivations are less obvious.

 

The Imperium has, in prior editions, been portrayed as having non-hostile diplomatic relations with some of the more rational xeno of the galaxy to the point where their forces could ally in standard games. I think I'm known around here as an advocate of non-hostile xeno relations.

 

You also have to remember that the Inquisition is neither monolithic nor rigorously structured. Indeed, if it was, it'd be much more vulnerable to corruption. Despite their prevalence in the fluff, Radical Deamon users were noted as rare. They just tend to show up more in the documents because they cause conflict and tension and attact attention of their peers and this makes for a better story. It's like their are only two Sith, but they appear in all the movies. Just 'cause one Inquisitor is a fool who opens his mail with a daemonic pen knife doesn't mean they all do, or even that his peers would approve if they knew.

 

The warp has always been a source of mind searing evil. The Tau, not so much. There's an entire branch of Imperial service dedicated to non-military dealings with aliens. Rogue Traders. If the rational xeno were as bad as or worse than the Daemonic this whole branch of service would not exist.

 

Hangin' with the Kroot and weilding a Shuriken Catapult is not in the same catagory as binding a Daemon-Host and shanking people with a soul sucking toothpick.

[Iron Lord]

If I had to guess on why Ward is making Radical Malleus inquisitors "more mainstream" - it would be

 

"because people like to play Radical inquisitors in games like Dark Heresy- and don't like the thought that everyone else in the Inquisitor regards their characters as renegades to be killed on sight"

 

Even in Codex Daemonhunters, it suggested that using Daemon weapons was a big step away from using Daemonhosts.

 

Now- it seems to be, that using Daemonhosts, is roughly where using Daemon weapons was, in the last codex- dubious, but not to the point of "Excommunicate the moment it's discovered".

 

(the last codex didn't have an option for daemon weapons though- and did have an option for daemonhosts).

[Inache]

It's the whole Inquisitorial stance that ends justify the means to an extent. You can literally get away with murder as an Inquisitor up until the point that somebody calls you on your shenanigans. Like Inquisitor Valeria. She uses xenos gear, studies it, and hunts for it. A more puritan Ordo Xenos Inquisitor snubs her and destroys a piece of xenotech that she wants. She has more clout, and labels him Excommunicate Tratoris, and starts hunting him for revenge.

 

The Rosette gives excessive amounts of leeway specifically so Inquisitors can go about their business in the manner they see fit. Likewise it also acts as a check and balance on Inquisitors going rogue or radical. I'm sure the GK's know who dabbles with the more radical stuff, but as long as they don't cross whatever line the GK's or other Inquisitors have, then they're given free reign to do the Emperor's work.

[Brother Valerius]

Maybe it's just carrying the trend a bit further- they not only use these tools (with a degree of caution) they no longer automatically get outlawed by the rest of the Inquisition for doing this.

You are willing to butcher older, better fluff to give Ward's abominations room to exist. Why?

 

Art is subjective, and your opinion is not the only valid one. Perhaps he believes that it is more interesting to have things written that way.

 

In any case, you're using very strong words where you don't have a strong footing. There is no such thing as "better" writing. There's different writing, more popular writing, and any other number of standards you can define, but not "better".

[Iron Lord]

It's the whole Inquisitorial stance that ends justify the means to an extent. You can literally get away with murder as an Inquisitor up until the point that somebody calls you on your shenanigans. Like Inquisitor Valeria. She uses xenos gear, studies it, and hunts for it. A more puritan Ordo Xenos Inquisitor snubs her and destroys a piece of xenotech that she wants. She has more clout, and labels him Excommunicate Tratoris, and starts hunting him for revenge.

 

The Rosette gives excessive amounts of leeway specifically so Inquisitors can go about their business in the manner they see fit. Likewise it also acts as a check and balance on Inquisitors going rogue or radical. I'm sure the GK's know who dabbles with the more radical stuff, but as long as they don't cross whatever line the GK's or other Inquisitors have, then they're given free reign to do the Emperor's work.

 

This. Sometimes it's the puritans that end up on the wrong side of an excommunication. Or end up dabbling with "outlawed organizations

 

In Imperial Armour IV: The Anphelion Project, Inquisitor Lord Varius contrives the destruction of a fellow Inquisitor, Solomon Lok. His astropathic transmission on the subject says:

 

"The demise of Inquisitor Solomon Lok has not only eliminated a dangerous political rival (and I believe a dangerous puritan with contacts amongst the outlawed Vindictas faction within the Ordo Xenos), but provided us with much needed evidence before moving on to the next phase of the project. In death, Lok has served the Emperor's (and our own) purposes well."

 

Maybe the new version of the Grey Knights, simply draws the line of "permissible radicalism" more generously.

[Eddie Orlock]

Art is subjective, and your opinion is not the only valid one. Perhaps he believes that it is more interesting to have things written that way.

Ah, a can of worms. Good thing I brought my can opener.

 

So, is Ward an 'artist'? Does this codex have 'artistic merrit'? Or, is he just a corporate hack creating 'commercial product'? Is this a false dichotomy and can the work be both?

 

I think a lot of these discussions assume No, No, Yes, No and No. I also suspect that if we were asked the same questions on our opinions of the luminaries who created the universe over two decades ago the answers might look like Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes. Somewhere along the line we lost something. I'm not sure what. I suspect that it's this difference that changes how Ward gets judged. Maybe we view the past with rose coloured lenses. Maybe they had the benefit of creating whole cloth whereas Ward is doing derivative work.

 

If Jervis had said Draigo Weilded a Deamon weapon, would we be okay with it? What about Andy? What about Gav? I suspect that if Gav had been tasked with this the fluff may have been 'better' written and we'd all be a little more mollified. Does that make Gav an artist?

[Inache]

There's art in the codex, and writing in itself is an art. By painting and converting miniatures we're all artists to some degree. Does our work deserve the same praise it garners if it isn't to the standards of others that produce similar yet superior results? Would an aberration in paint scheme be condemned with such vehemence? Should the considering of form and context not be extended to our writer brethren? Are we so blinded by our own devotion to the overarching world that we cannot appreciate diversity in the telling of its story? In this case it is a vexing yes. We judge not based on merit, mechanic, or motive, but upon a preconceived notion of how we view this world. Who ultimately controls the story? The storyteller or the audience? The storyteller weaves the story, but the tale belongs to the audience, so we must accept what is provided and make it our own.

 

OR

 

It's a really cool gothic grimdark game. Why so serious?

[- 7eAL -]

There's art in the codex, and writing in itself is an art. By painting and converting miniatures we're all artists to some degree. Does our work deserve the same praise it garners if it isn't to the standards of others that produce similar yet superior results? Would an aberration in paint scheme be condemned with such vehemence? Should the considering of form and context not be extended to our writer brethren? Are we so blinded by our own devotion to the overarching world that we cannot appreciate diversity in the telling of its story? In this case it is a vexing yes. We judge not based on merit, mechanic, or motive, but upon a preconceived notion of how we view this world. Who ultimately controls the story? The storyteller or the audience? The storyteller weaves the story, but the tale belongs to the audience, so we must accept what is provided and make it our own.

 

OR

 

It's a really cool gothic grimdark game. Why so serious?

Because I no longer like your game.

Because I will no longer play your game.

Because I will no longer pay for your game.

Because I will no longer share your game with others.

Your game is no longer aligned with my imagined world, and the storyteller has broken the established knowledge of the tale - telling me that the tale I have imagined so far is wrong. I liked the way the tale the way it was and I liked the story the way it was going but this shift has broken my involvement in the tale altogether, like Brechtian distanciation kicking in. I've lost interest in the tale, in the story, in the storyteller, in the game. One way to keep old fans is to do things the same. One way to gather new fans is to do something different. But you can't do both.

 

Customer lost.