Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Zealadin]

Sorry your using the DOWNLOADED GK dex? Ie the free one, because you couldn't even be bothered buying the REAL CODEX before the OMG new release bandwagon started rolling?

Don't accuse people who have a real codex of hating something out of spite. Looking at your posts your arguing semantics and obviously don't have much understanding of GK's. Half your arguements refer to SPACE MARINE stuff and aren't relevant to GK's in the least.

 

The amount of attacks the model has at the end of the day is irrelevant when its the same as other terminators, however since you mentioned it, from memory GKT get an extra attack due to being EXTREMELY skilled at the use of TDA, unlike Inquisitors who DO NOT benefit from the extra attack. Yes I checked my real GK codex and confirmed this.

 

There is no company of 100 GKT, GK don't use the traditional force organisation, and don't fight as a large force except in exceptional circumstances. To suddenly start claiming that a GKGM should have his own 100 GKT retinue is just wrong, and is totally contrary to previous fluff. A GKGM could of course gather that many GKT for an extremely important battle.

Thats why each GKT unit is led by a BC, because they would often be working in small forces and each squad leader is capable of leading a force, whether that be a Justicar leading a single squad, a BC leading several, or just his own, or a GKGM leading his own unit of terminators, or as large a force of GK as could be mustered to meet a threat.

Just because specifics were not known about structure doesn't mean that it wasn't hinted at and that sufficient looking couldn't find it. It wasn't specific for a reason, not because it hadn't been defined but because it didn't need to be defined in a traditional way. Grey Knights are scattered across the 40k universe fighting daemons where-ever they may be found, which incase anyone was unsure, is everywhere, and because no one else can really do the job they do without being corrupted.

 

Next to the GKT section is this quote "The elite warriors of the legendary Grey Knights Chaper are a fearsome force on the battlefeild, trained to fight seemingly insurmountable odds and triumph. They are armed and armoured with with the most ancient and revered artifacts from the dawn of the imperium, and each is a potent psyker in their own right." It then goes on to say how they are better than even Space Marines.

 

I also don't know where you get such facts as the last codex not allowing GKT to be feilded? Or that the squads could only be 5 man????? Honestly you strike me as the typical Space Marine player who sees Grey Knights and thinks Silver Space Marines, not caring about the many differences between the two, and happy to see amazing fluff which makes them different destroyed so you can jump on the GK bandwagon at the expense of all the players who have collected and played them for their unique story and abilities for YEARS.

I mean its not an unusual viewpoint, since even most GWS staff know literally NOTHING about GK's. I've had them tell me that GK troop can take rhino's, and many other totally incorrect facts. I had one tell me that GK's should get all the Space Marine stuff with the new dex because all space marines use vehicles and it makes no sense otherwise.

I mean honestly its quite sad.

Most of the veteran GK players I know are as afraid of the new codex as they are excited because the essense of the GK's may be lost. So do us all a favour and try and keep the real facts (the ones you seem unaware of) and all the SM garbage seperate. Its possible after the new dex there won't be a distinction but with the current dex there certainly is.

[Eddie Orlock]

... There is no company of 100 GKT, GK don't use the traditional force organisation, and don't fight as a large force except in exceptional circumstances.

 

...

 

So do us all a favour and try and keep the real facts (the ones you seem unaware of) and all the SM garbage seperate. Its possible after the new dex there won't be a distinction but with the current dex there certainly is.

To writ I'll cite the Dark Millenium Suplement wherein I recall it describes the Grey Knights as being strongly codex adhearent with few exceptions, noteably that they must posses psychic potential to make the first company. In essence there was a historical time when it was quite correct to interpret the Grey Knights substancially as 'Silver Marines', and that this time was after the advent of second edition when much of the fluff was recodified into our modern interpretations.

 

We can play the old and faithful game, but it's not going to get us anywhere.

[Inache]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how people can be mad that Ward didn't make them special enough, and at the same time bashing it because a character is too overpowered.

 

I call heresy.

[Vindicatus]

I wouldn't say 'not special enough'. It's more that they took what was special about them to begin with completely away. That's what has people in a serious tiff.

 

As for Draigo, his entire backstory just smacks of "Hey this sounds cool, add that in there. Wait what? Yeah, and lasers, TONS of lasers." It honestly sounds like a twelve year old wrote it with no consideration of prior established backstory.

[Inache]

I wouldn't say 'not special enough'. It's more that they took what was special about them to begin with completely away. That's what has people in a serious tiff.

 

As for Draigo, his entire backstory just smacks of "Hey this sounds cool, add that in there. Wait what? Yeah, and lasers, TONS of lasers." It honestly sounds like a twelve year old wrote it with no consideration of prior established backstory.

 

What exactly in your opinion did Ward take away?

 

And what backstory did Ward not consider?

[Valerian]

Really. Except, you somehow forgot that they were A1 in the old Codex, too, A2 was just bonus given by armour

 

IIRC, the +1A from wearing TDA actually comes from having Terminator Honours, and not the armour itself. It's just those wearing TDA *also* have Terminator Honours.

 

And The honours were to represent a 'veteren' who was then trained/repected enough to wear a suit of TDA.

 

It's why Inquisitors who purhcase TDA from the armoury don't gain a +1A.

 

Absolutely correct. Of course, Terminator Honors has gone the way of the dodo bird, but it was in vogue when the old codex was written.

 

This is just my opinion, but this new codex looks to give me what I've come to expect from Mr. Ward: decent rules, units, and army list, paired with what I find to be uninspired and unpalatable background material. If they'd just pair him up with a better writer for the fluff part, he'd be a great partner to have in making a really well-done codex. As I see it, his strength makes him worth keeping on the team, but he's got a significant weakness that GW needs to address.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

I still don't agree with GKSS having 1A and Ld8, while the TDA have 2A and Ld9. It makes *no* sense what so ever. Mechanical or Fluff.

[Irbis]

This is just my opinion, but this new codex looks to give me what I've come to expect from Mr. Ward: decent rules, units, and army list, paired with what I find to be uninspired and unpalatable background material. If they'd just pair him up with a better writer for the fluff part, he'd be a great partner to have in making a really well-done codex.

 

Uninspired? Yes, I admit it could be better. He still gets high points for all these little shout-outs to early editions I find every time I get to take look at another RT era book, and for filling all these little details that always were there when you took a second look.

 

Still, he produces material far above the level GW used to achieve, and spilling rivers of bile over him is, as someone already said in sister thread, plain Heresy

 

Sorry your using the DOWNLOADED GK dex? Ie the free one, because you couldn't even be bothered buying the REAL CODEX before the OMG new release bandwagon started rolling?

Don't accuse people who have a real codex of hating something out of spite. Looking at your posts your arguing semantics and obviously don't have much understanding of GK's. Half your arguements refer to SPACE MARINE stuff and aren't relevant to GK's in the least.

 

Dude, is the only way you can defend your arguments through cheap ad personam attacks?

 

Judging by the the above, I had Codex: GK for far longer than you did, having bought the very first printing*. I don't have it on hand, due to silly matter of travelling 1200+ km abroad, taking only digital copy as luggage was rather tight, but as far as I'm aware they have the same fluff and this has no bearing at all who who is right anyway.

 

By the way, "semantics"? Is correction of getting names, places and numbers completely wrong just "semantics" these days?

 

The amount of attacks the model has at the end of the day is irrelevant when its the same as other terminators, however since you mentioned it, from memory GKT get an extra attack due to being EXTREMELY skilled at the use of TDA, unlike Inquisitors who DO NOT benefit from the extra attack. Yes I checked my real GK codex and confirmed this.

 

They get two. Did then, do now. Unless you're one of these people who ignore "bonus already included in statline" mention and add one through the description from wargear.

 

There is no company of 100 GKT, GK don't use the traditional force organisation, and don't fight as a large force except in exceptional circumstances.

 

And you say I'm unaware of GK fluff? Pardon?

 

Thats why each GKT unit is led by a BC, because they would often be working in small forces and each squad leader is capable of leading a force, whether that be a Justicar leading a single squad, a BC leading several, or just his own, or a GKGM leading his own unit of terminators, or as large a force of GK as could be mustered to meet a threat.

 

So, you're saying that GK have... what, 600+ Captains? And every one leads force smaller than SM sergeant?

 

Also - Chapter specifically designed to counter planetary-scale Daemon invasions in small (5x GK) numbers? What? Are you aware that you just suggested every GK is 10x more awesome than Draigo?

 

I rest my case.

 

Just because specifics were not known about structure doesn't mean that it wasn't hinted at and that sufficient looking couldn't find it.

 

Zero is still zero, no matter how you try to fill it with fanon it will still be zero.

 

If anything, Ward is more accurate than 3rd editions of SM and GK Codexes, as you can see he drawn deeply from RT era in both of these, scrubbing the worst nonsenses of ultragrimdark era rules/fluff from both of them, IMHO.

 

Next to the GKT section is this quote "The elite warriors of the legendary Grey Knights Chaper are a fearsome force on the battlefeild, trained to fight seemingly insurmountable odds and triumph. They are armed and armoured with with the most ancient and revered artifacts from the dawn of the imperium, and each is a potent psyker in their own right." It then goes on to say how they are better than even Space Marines.

 

Right, and they are now, with W2 Terminators, Terminator troops, and all-PW MEQ units. That is in opposition to old Codex that made GK Grand Masters worse than SM captains, GK Captains weaker than SM Sergeants, GT Terminators far worse than Hammernators... Let's face it, everything in GK Codex was worse. This is your elite?

 

I mean, guess who will win more often, GK Captain, or SM Hammernator Sergeant costing a fraction of his price should they fight?

 

I also don't know where you get such facts as the last codex not allowing GKT to be feilded?

 

Look at the entry in Codex. The only way you can take them is through HQ, or Elite slot Captain (more like Sergeant...) taking retinue. They're not Terminator units, they are what is now Honour Guard in SM Codex - overpriced units with built-in point sink weakness. You can't take cheap unit of Terminators, only retinues.

 

I mean its not an unusual viewpoint, since even most GWS staff know literally NOTHING about GK's.

 

Yup, it's kinda hard to know anything when the last Codex was almost empty of fluff (compared to modern ones) while it also thrown out the previous, earlier/RT era fluff through the window, leaving massive void.

 

I've had them tell me that GK troop can take rhino's, and many other totally incorrect facts.

 

Huh, I wonder what it is doing right in the middle of old GK Codex's Dedicated Transport section, then. Sure, not all units can buy it, but it used to be norm in 3rd Ed and players typically found a way to give it to squads that needed them, anyway.

 

So do us all a favour and try and keep the real facts (the ones you seem unaware of) and all the SM garbage seperate.

 

"Real" facts? Like bolded 'only GK veterans wear TDA'? Or statlines?

 

Why, I always respect facts. Invented fanon without citations, though, and ad personam attacks get none from me.

 

 

*used only as reading/painting material, as no WH40K shops in my country ever carried GK miniatures, at least the ones I was aware of, and I didn't wanted to play them using regular marines - too much effort in converting them to get right look.

[Brother Dylan]

I know a lot of people seem to say that a Grandmaster facing down Mortarion and winning is unfluffy but according to the First War of Armageddon pdf from games workshop Brother-Captain Aurellian slew Angron basically single handedly. The only issue I take with this fluff is the fact that in his life story the battle is just glossed over like it was nothing special.

[AlexHolker]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how people can be mad that Ward didn't make them special enough, and at the same time bashing it because a character is too overpowered.

Imagine you went to a restaurant and ordered a steak, only to find it had been burnt, but the inside was still frozen. Would you complain?

 

I know a lot of people seem to say that a Grandmaster facing down Mortarion and winning is unfluffy but according to the First War of Armageddon pdf from games workshop Brother-Captain Aurellian slew Angron basically single handedly.

Angron and his bloodthirsters were outnumbered eight to one - that is not "single-handedly". And Aurellian didn't take the time to practice his Zorro skills on Angron's heart instead of doing something useful.

[Vindicatus]

I wouldn't say 'not special enough'. It's more that they took what was special about them to begin with completely away. That's what has people in a serious tiff.

 

As for Draigo, his entire backstory just smacks of "Hey this sounds cool, add that in there. Wait what? Yeah, and lasers, TONS of lasers." It honestly sounds like a twelve year old wrote it with no consideration of prior established backstory.

 

What exactly in your opinion did Ward take away?

 

And what backstory did Ward not consider?

 

 

Ward took away the uniqueness that made the Grey Knights who they were. They were not merely 'silvered Space Marines'. Each member was a hero of the Astartes in the same way each normal Astartes is a god to a mortal man. Yet, for all their increased training, their supposed state of the art weaponry, they hold the very same statline as Joe Snuffy, newly power armour-gifted upjumped scout from the Roaring Geckos chapter.

 

As to the backstory, how about the backstory not only of the Grey Knights themselves, but of every other Primarch? This man, alone, in the enemies' backyard, beat down Khorne's chosen, toppled Tzeentch's maze on top of a Lord of Change, burned the festering jungles of Nurgle to the ground, and started popping off succubi with contemptuous ease. All this after he five-finger-death-punched a Primarch to get him to sit still long enough to start carving letters into the dude's heart.

 

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Ward's innanity made Draigo pop out of the warp and say "I am not this Draigo..I am Bob! Mayor of Heehaw Land, and one of the two lost Primarchs. BOW."

 

I'm going to sum up the feelings of the vast majority of the people on the board who's jaw hit the floor when reading about all this:

 

 

"No."

[Gentlemanloser]

What I dislike is that for some reason, once you've finished your trianing, if you decide to specialise and become a Strike Squad member and hand in your suit of TDA, you somehow become a *worse* Marine...

 

Someone didn't think the fluff through there, did they...

[Eddie Orlock]

The Roaring Geckos have a long and proud history that is sadly unheard in the greater Imperium owing to their freaquent excursions to dark places where the Astronimicon doesn't shine. The Storm Angles take great umbrige at this uncalled for maligning of their fellow chapter. Their initiates-nova are not 'upjumped', but carefully trained after spending extensive time actively serving in their scout company.

 

In the absense of the leaked codex, having not pursued illegal downloads after all, I might suggest that as viable candidates for the Grey Knights are both rare and precious compared to the chapters access to the most powerful of Imperial Personal Armour perhaps the docterine is turned on its ear so to speak given the relative values and the newly inducted are issued the most effective protection to help keep them safe until such time as they don't need it. Maybe not wearing the massive suit is a form of promotion.

[Inache]

Ward took away the uniqueness that made the Grey Knights who they were. They were not merely 'silvered Space Marines'. Each member was a hero of the Astartes in the same way each normal Astartes is a god to a mortal man. Yet, for all their increased training, their supposed state of the art weaponry, they hold the very same statline as Joe Snuffy, newly power armour-gifted upjumped scout from the Roaring Geckos chapter.

 

So we lost+2 Strength from all NFW, 1 WS from PAGK's and 1WS and 1 Leadership from GKT's and gained all the new special rules, PW's for every regular GK, new NFW's, Paladins which have the same WS as the old GKT's, a slew of new psyker abilities, BC's get a bump in WS, BS, Wounds, and Initiative, GM's. get the same bump, but lose an attack.

 

For the balance of the overall game I think that's fair. We had four units and one special character, now we have 9 units and 5 special characters. We've gained so much with this codex. This isn't movie marines, if that was the case then yeah, daemons should be a lot more powerful, and we should be the only ones to be able to beat them back. As it stands we've gained a lot more than what we've lost, and I don't think we've lost anything that made us special.

 

As to the backstory, how about the backstory not only of the Grey Knights themselves, but of every other Primarch? This man, alone, in the enemies' backyard, beat down Khorne's chosen, toppled Tzeentch's maze on top of a Lord of Change, burned the festering jungles of Nurgle to the ground, and started popping off succubi with contemptuous ease. All this after he five-finger-death-punched a Primarch to get him to sit still long enough to start carving letters into the dude's heart.

 

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Ward's innanity made Draigo pop out of the warp and say "I am not this Draigo..I am Bob! Mayor of Heehaw Land, and one of the two lost Primarchs. BOW."

 

I'm going to sum up the feelings of the vast majority of the people on the board who's jaw hit the floor when reading about all this:

 

 

"No."

 

;)

 

Well considering that Khorne's chosen have fallen before, that Lords of Change only fall when Tzeentch sends them false visions, it was only the outer walls to the maze, Damonettes get killed all the time, and Nurgle's jungle and the walls were both back shortly thereafter plus the daemons were rematerialized shortly as well, it seems that Draigo isn't really doing that much long term damage, mostly railing at the forces keeping him jailed in the Warp. If you could limit your greatest enemy to doing what amounts to superficial damage for 10,000 years, wouldn't you jump at the chance? The Chaos gods are keeping Draigo in a bottle.

 

And if a ship of Chaos Space Marines can kill Rogal Dorn, then I think that a strike force of Grey Knights can screw with Mortarion. Ward isn't doing anything to the fluff that hasn't been done before. Grey Knights have banished, harassed, and strait up humiliated daemons countless times. I'm of the opinion that being a daemon prince makes you more susceptible to the Grey Knights than if you were just a Primarch. It makes you vulnerable to Grey Knights in a way that they never were before. Hexagramic wards, words of power, the Aegis, the Grey Knights physical manifestation of purity all weaken daemons.

 

What I dislike is that for some reason, once you've finished your trianing, if you decide to specialise and become a Strike Squad member and hand in your suit of TDA, you somehow become a *worse* Marine...

 

Someone didn't think the fluff through there, did they...

 

They never say they take it away. Since Terminator armor is the first suit awarded, it stands to reason that they'd maintain it for their entire life, not hand it back in five minutes later when they're assigned to a Strike Squad as their first mission. For example the Salamanders 1st Company maintain both their TDA armor and upgrade their old power armor to artificer armor to use either depending on the mission requirements. Why wouldn't the GK's do the same? And a regular GK is only down 1 Leadership and 1 attack from a regular GKT. It's not spitting in the face of fluff to bring certain elements of a stat line into par with the rest of 5th Edition.

 

Edit: Plus if you take into account that Draigo went from new battle-brother to Supreme Grand Master in 200 years should give you an idea on how powerful he is to take the fast track in an organization that has a member as a Brother Captain for at the very least 303 years if not more.

[Brother Dylan]

I know a lot of people seem to say that a Grandmaster facing down Mortarion and winning is unfluffy but according to the First War of Armageddon pdf from games workshop Brother-Captain Aurellian slew Angron basically single handedly.

Angron and his bloodthirsters were outnumbered eight to one - that is not "single-handedly". And Aurellian didn't take the time to practice his Zorro skills on Angron's heart instead of doing something useful.

 

 

 

I'm not saying he defeated Angron and his bloodthirsters on his own, just pointing out that according to the fluff he did beat Angron on his own, so it is not a leap of the imagination that a Grandmaster couldn't do a better job.

[Gentlemanloser]

They never say they take it away. Since Terminator armor is the first suit awarded, it stands to reason that they'd maintain it for their entire life, not hand it back in five minutes later when they're assigned to a Strike Squad as their first mission. For example the Salamanders 1st Company maintain both their TDA armor and upgrade their old power armor to artificer armor to use either depending on the mission requirements. Why wouldn't the GK's do the same? And a regular GK is only down 1 Leadership and 1 attack from a regular GKT. It's not spitting in the face of fluff to bring certain elements of a stat line into par with the rest of 5th Edition.

 

Never intended to imply they did.

 

They do change thier wargear from TDA to PA for work in a Strike Squad, and it matters not if thier TDA is still kept in thier locker in Titan/Strike Cruiser.

 

I know they're down stats for balance or internal consistency reaosns, but it flies in the face of the Fluff, and is inconsitent to that.

 

It's bad design.

[Inache]

Never intended to imply they did.

 

They do change thier wargear from TDA to PA for work in a Strike Squad, and it matters not if thier TDA is still kept in thier locker in Titan/Strike Cruiser.

 

I know they're down stats for balance or internal consistency reaosns, but it flies in the face of the Fluff, and is inconsitent to that.

 

It's bad design.

And that's the problem with mixing game mechanics and fluff. There has to come a point where you take your own opinion about the fluff out of the equation to measure the rules. I love the Imperium, I think Space Marines are awesome, the IG is great, and the Grey Knights are the best thing since sliced bread. I want Grey Knights to be the embodiment of their fluff, like the Grey Knight told Uriel Ventris in The Killing Ground, the only way you could have beaten me is if you were possessed. Grey Knights only foe that should be on level with them is daemons. However, that's not the way a game works. GKSS's leadership is set up to make use of psyker powers somewhat dangerous so it isn't an "I win" button. Every GK with a CCW now has a power weapon, limiting it to one attack makes sure that a 5 man combat squad can't wipe entire units in a round of CC. It sucks a bit for people that really love the fluff, but that's the way things are, the game will never accurately portray the fluff. If it did Draigo would have 10's across the board.

 

Which is funny, how many people would complain about Draigo's fluff if he had all 10's and cost 750 points?

[Eddie Orlock]

Which is funny, how many people would complain about Draigo's fluff if he had all 10's and cost 750 points?

I think what we might have here is a disconnect between how the game math works and how the fluff stats are translated.

 

I'll postulate that the game is somewhat linear in its repersenations. This is to say between bow skill 2, 3, 4, and 5 there is an even incremental improvement in ability.

 

Contrary to this, over time I've developed the understanding that interms of translating the fluff into numbers the scale is perhaps logrithmic akin to the Richter scale, or some such similar non-linear curve. This is to say that bow skill 3 is to 2 ask skill 4 is to 3 and the jump from 2 to 4 requires a quality multiplier equal to the square of the jump from any other two adjacent whole numbers.

 

So, while this creates strange fluff ideas, like the Cyborg Ultra Chappie being two orders of magnatude tougher than an ordinary marine it also allows for the presumably peternatural skills of entities like the Eldar Avatar to be represented in a non-game-unbalancing way. Calgar was just lucky that day.

 

It convieniently reconciles the fluff that at weapon skill 5 the knights were to marines at skill 4 as the marines were to guard at skill 3.

 

Of course, as a general rule of thumb it tends to interact poorly with the rule of cool and the axiom of stat creep.

[Inache]

Which is funny, how many people would complain about Draigo's fluff if he had all 10's and cost 750 points?

I think what we might have here is a disconnect between how the game math works and how the fluff stats are translated.

 

I'll postulate that the game is somewhat linear in its repersenations. This is to say between bow skill 2, 3, 4, and 5 there is an even incremental improvement in ability.

 

Contrary to this, over time I've developed the understanding that interms of translating the fluff into numbers the scale is perhaps logrithmic akin to the Richter scale, or some such similar non-linear curve. This is to say that bow skill 3 is to 2 ask skill 4 is to 3 and the jump from 2 to 4 requires a quality multiplier equal to the square of the jump from any other two adjacent whole numbers.

 

So, while this creates strange fluff ideas, like the Cyborg Ultra Chappie being two orders of magnatude tougher than an ordinary marine it also allows for the presumably peternatural skills of entities like the Eldar Avatar to be represented in a non-game-unbalancing way. Calgar was just lucky that day.

 

It convieniently reconciles the fluff that at weapon skill 5 the knights were to marines at skill 4 as the marines were to guard at skill 3.

 

Of course, as a general rule of thumb it tends to interact poorly with the rule of cool and the axiom of stat creep.

 

Completely agreed. In fact that's sort of the explanation given in the BRB in the descriptions of the various stats.

 

I was poking fun at the fact that if fluff doesn't match up to stat lines there's a problem combined with the contempt that most people have for the Draigo fluff.

[Gentlemanloser]

And that's the problem with mixing game mechanics and fluff. There has to come a point where you take your own opinion about the fluff out of the equation to measure the rules. I love the Imperium, I think Space Marines are awesome, the IG is great, and the Grey Knights are the best thing since sliced bread. I want Grey Knights to be the embodiment of their fluff, like the Grey Knight told Uriel Ventris in The Killing Ground, the only way you could have beaten me is if you were possessed. Grey Knights only foe that should be on level with them is daemons. However, that's not the way a game works. GKSS's leadership is set up to make use of psyker powers somewhat dangerous so it isn't an "I win" button. Every GK with a CCW now has a power weapon, limiting it to one attack makes sure that a 5 man combat squad can't wipe entire units in a round of CC. It sucks a bit for people that really love the fluff, but that's the way things are, the game will never accurately portray the fluff. If it did Draigo would have 10's across the board.

 

The Chapters fluff *has* to be consistent within itself.

 

It currently isn't.

 

You can't suspend that disbelief.

 

And GKSS Ld is the exact same as the Termies (as long as the Justicar is alive), so that's a non reason.

[Inache]

And that's the problem with mixing game mechanics and fluff. There has to come a point where you take your own opinion about the fluff out of the equation to measure the rules. I love the Imperium, I think Space Marines are awesome, the IG is great, and the Grey Knights are the best thing since sliced bread. I want Grey Knights to be the embodiment of their fluff, like the Grey Knight told Uriel Ventris in The Killing Ground, the only way you could have beaten me is if you were possessed. Grey Knights only foe that should be on level with them is daemons. However, that's not the way a game works. GKSS's leadership is set up to make use of psyker powers somewhat dangerous so it isn't an "I win" button. Every GK with a CCW now has a power weapon, limiting it to one attack makes sure that a 5 man combat squad can't wipe entire units in a round of CC. It sucks a bit for people that really love the fluff, but that's the way things are, the game will never accurately portray the fluff. If it did Draigo would have 10's across the board.

 

The Chapters fluff *has* to be consistent within itself.

 

It currently isn't.

 

You can't suspend that disbelief.

 

And GKSS Ld is the exact same as the Termies (as long as the Justicar is alive), so that's a non reason.

 

What exactly isn't consistent?

[Gentlemanloser]

When you leave GK training, you are a 2A Ld9 Marine.

 

When you don a suit of PA and become a Strike Squad Member, or are distinquished enough to be *promoted* to Purgation Squad, you suddenly become worse and become a 1A Ld8 Marine.

 

That is illogical and totally inconsistent.

[Marmande]

And the fact that Grey Knights are supposed to go through even tougher training than other Space Marines, but don't have the stats to back it up. Which wouldn't be a big deal except that they used to be WS5 and had True Grit, so now they feel like normal dudes with just better gear.

[Gentlemanloser]

Therefore the members of a Purgation Squad must, if anything, have displayed an ability and resolve of that above thier peers

 

Yet, they are listed as 8Ld (and either 1A or 2A, depending on where you look...).

 

So, the distinguished members, with an ability and resolve above thier peers, are actually worse than a freshly trained GK right out of boot camp in TDA.

 

That is unacceptable. The Fluff is inconsistent with itself, and makes *no* sense.

 

If anything, Purgation Squad GKs should have been 5BS, with 9Ld as standard. Edit: If not 10Ld...

 

And *all* GKs, regardless of Squad should be 2A marines.

[Eddie Orlock]

And *all* GKs, regardless of Squad should be 2A marines.

It may not so much be a case of inferior training or quality as training and quality that doesn't show up well in wargame stat blocks.

 

Consider Necromunda. In this game standard gangs have access to Juves, Gangers, Heavies, and Leaders. Of interest to this discussion are the middle two. Both Gangers and Heavies share a starting statline, however, Heavies begin their careers with four advances more worth of experience, the equivilent of a Leader. It is explained in the game that this reperesents the unusially level of techincal training, skill, and expertice they've aquired that makes the suitable and able to weild heavy weaponry effectively. We can suppose then, that at some early point in the training process particular aptitudes are observed and different aspirants are streamed off in different directions of training. Some find themselves privilaged to weild heavy weapons with which to smite the Emperors enemies from afar and others find themselves granted the honour of close engagement in heavy suits and the divergent training and resultant skill sets reflect this.

 

In our own existance this might be looked at as the difference between an Engineer and a Medical Doctor. Both are highly educated professionals with expertice in their fields that our society requires, but they're generally not interchangeable. One does not go to a medical clinic seeking advice on how to build a bridge, nor does one go to an Engineering office seeking advice on how to treat a sore throat.

 

Just because a Marine is a veteran of considerable training and experience does not necessarily dictate that he is a superlative badass in close combat. Perhaps he's spent the overwheling majority of his career attached to the fleet or armoury as a Thunderhawk Pilot and is instead a star fighter ace.