Aegnor Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I'm 2/3 through the book - loving it overall. Some really good stuff by some of the lesser known authors. Consider my mind officially blown by Rebirth by Chris Wraight and The Last Remembrancer by John French. The Face of Treachery (not that Thorpe is less known) is also great, although I suspect it will be a bit confusing to those who haven't listened to Raven's Flight. I quite liked Rules of Engagement. The criticism about it crudely manipulating the reader and a weak ending are valid, but compensated for me by the insights into the changes and challenges within the Ultras themselves as they adapt to following the precepts of the Codex, and for finally giving some insight and character into Guilliman - the fact that after Calth, he had the vision to realise that the Imperium would not survive as it had been, and developed the blueprint that would set it up and sustain it for another 10,000 years is awesome, and I thought it got that across properly. I thought, as a non-practitioner, that the description of the tactics by a non-military author for a predominantly non-military audience was some of the best I've read in BL and gave the sense of what they were meant to be like - especially the sense of lesser minds being guided by the teachings of a genius and developing the trust to follow those instructions even when they appear counter-inituitive to their own judgement. Edit: Just read Little Horus by Abnett. Another really really good vignette. Pretty amazing fleshing out of a character that indicates that his future role and responses in the story might be quite different to what we had all expected. Set up a cool crisis for him in the future re Loken, but also dashes the idea of Aximand as a reluctant traitor crippled by remorse. Was also great to get a brief glimpse of Horus himself during this timeframe where he wasn't being a raving monster chewing the scenery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 The more I hear about Rules of Engagement the more I'm apprehensive of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 The criticism about it crudely manipulating the reader and a weak ending are valid, but compensated for me by the insights into the changes and challenges within the Ultras themselves as they adapt to following the precepts of the Codex, and for finally giving some insight and character into Guilliman - the fact that after Calth, he had the vision to realise that the Imperium would not survive as it had been, and developed the blueprint that would set it up and sustain it for another 10,000 years is awesome, and I thought it got that across properly. True enough. It's not a bad story on conceptual level, the issues are on the execution side of things. Read Liar's Due on today's commute - while it was non-space mariney and pretty obvious it's an Alpha Legion story from the start, really it worked. Nothing grand, but just what one can expect from a well enough crafted tale of secrets and lies. Entertaining. And the hey, I didn't kill but this one girl, all the rest is on your people being gullible idiots bit and the final moments are especially juicy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I don't think it was too obvious that it was Alpha Legion, until an appropriate point in the story. I mean, it was an obvious possibility, but there did seem that there were other possible outcomes that could have happened. I was half convinced we would actually get an invasion and decimation by the heretics. The resolution where he simply nicks off and lets them tear themselves apart was a much more interesting ending. And separately, I don't think it being "non-Space Mariney" is a fair criticism. It was actually good to have a story in there that had nothing to do with Space Marines - the Imperium is billions of billions of people, across a million worlds. At the absolute most, there were a few million Space Marines at the time of the Heresy. Obviously they're integral to the tale of the Heresy, but there are lots of aspects of the HH story that has no direct involvement of Legiones Astartes, and it's good to get a few stories that reflect this. Actually, the bit I liked most about the story was that it showed the inhabitents of the backwater planet actually stopping to think - "does it actually make any difference to our lives whether we slave in the fields for the Emperor or for Horus, given we're never likely to meet anyone from off-world, let alone a representative of the government out here?". Given the nature of Chaos, they would have been tragically wrong to conclude it did make no difference, but it is a very valid question from their point of view and helps explain why some would have sided with the rebels pretty easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Dropping the spoilers for replying convinience, tried to remove most of the actual spoilers and leave the general commentary only, but watch out if you haven't read Age of Darkness and want to stay 100% in the dark: And separately, I don't think it being "non-Space Mariney" is a fair criticism. Obviously they're integral to the tale of the Heresy, but there are lots of aspects of the HH story that has no direct involvement of Legiones Astartes, and it's good to get a few stories that reflect this. Agreed. I was just commenting on the fact that it is (no actual Marine characters at all), it's something people have complained about Legion and Prospero Burns earlier (two books I liked very much personally) for example. Also agree with you on the misguided feeling of it being no matter who rules, one of the ironies of the "Imperial Truth" in an universe where Gods and Demons are actual reality. Ps. maybe the reason it was obvious to me what the story is about was that I expected, nay - wanted, it to be just that from the title of the story alone :) One of the interesting thoughts I got reading this was the methodogy and what it says about the motivation of the operative and thus Alpha Legion as a whole. While it was obvious he was there to CREATE the strife and see the world burn, he did not do a single action to ensure that the pro-traitors would actually WIN. Sure his last words seemed to imply that was what was to happen, and I dunno if it was meant to also reveal his motives, there was still an aspect of not TRULY knowing what he was there to achieve. Also - to leave the kid and his knowledge of the truth alive said something to me about the strife itself being more important than the victory of Horus' side. Maybe as an Alpha player I am reading too much to it (not "disguised good guys" but "we don't know what the heck they are doing"), but still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Kezek Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Finished it in under a day. Loved all of it. Though my thoughts after rules of engagement were "The ultramarines played laser tag whilst the imperium burned" :) I felt the same way after reading that story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Love every story so far. Only two to go. (Liar's due, and "The Face of Treachery"). "twist" in "Rebirth" Those Poor T.sons :) and in "Rules of Engagement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Just read "The Face of Treachery". :P ;) And I thought it would be a straightforward tie in with the "Raven's Flight" audio story. Tsk Tsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsra Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Maybe it´s because English is not my first language. Maybe I'm just slow. But I did'nt get Rules of Engagement. None of the battles where real? Or was Gulilliamn actally pitting ultramarines against each other just to "prepeare them" for things to come? I also hate that style of writing where they try to make a crap story interesteing by never stating clearly what is happening and piling cliff hangers on top of each other... Pretty common i HH-series. Haven't read any of the other storys yet, but RoE where just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Yes, the battles in "Rules of Engagement" were all just simulations and practice. The biggest revelation in that story is not really anything about the Codex Astartes (which is described as utterly ridiculous), it is that the Ultramarines knew that the Horus Heresy was going on, but delibrately chose not to fight. In all relevant earlier sources (2nd C:UM, 3rd IA:UM, 5th C:SM) they had only just learned of the Heresy when the battle for Terra was already under way and then raced back to Terra. But now, they knew from the start and simply decided not to intervene sooner. They have essentially been retconed from "heroes" to "slimy calculating semi-traitors". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 That's unfair. They knew it was on but pursued a path that Guilliman felt would best guarantee the long term future of the Imperium. His analysis was that whatever else happened, Legions led by Primarchs would not be possible/acceptable, and that nothing they could do would succeed in preserving the Imperium as it had been, so getting the Codex done to provide a framework going forward was vital. To say they were traitorous when it explicitly states that Guilliman was filled with grief and anger at the Heresy and he and the Legion all explicitly hated the traitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Yes, the battles in "Rules of Engagement" were all just simulations and practice. The biggest revelation in that story is not really anything about the Codex Astartes (which is described as utterly ridiculous), it is that the Ultramarines knew that the Horus Heresy was going on, but delibrately chose not to fight. In all relevant earlier sources (2nd C:UM, 3rd IA:UM, 5th C:SM) they had only just learned of the Heresy when the battle for Terra was already under way and then raced back to Terra. But now, they knew from the start and simply decided not to intervene sooner. They have essentially been retconed from "heroes" to "slimy calculating semi-traitors". I think the events to come in the Age of Darkness (the time period, not the anthology) will go a long way to redeeming them for you, and restoring them to their rightful place as perceived heroes, dude. EDIT: I hope so, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 That's unfair. They knew it was on but pursued a path that Guilliman felt would best guarantee the long term future of the Imperium. You know what else would have been good for the long term future of the Imeprium? If the Emperor had survived the Horus Heresy. And with two and a half extra loyalist Legions at Terra, he most likely would have. But we know that from hindsight, while Guilliman was just wrong. But really, even for the purpose of just saving worlds and preventing damage, intervening sooner rather than later would allways be the preferable course of action. After Istvaan it was 5 loyalists Legions against 9 traitor Legions. With Guilliman it would at least have been 6 (or almost 7.5) loyalist Legions. Taking loyalist Legions out of the equation does not accomplish anything other than giving the traitors the upper hand. The traitors had a realistic chance of taking terra and then the Imperium would have been gone for good. Not intervening was an irrational decision. One supposedly justified because Guilliman wanted to compile the Codex Astartes. But then according to the fluff we had so far that would not have been necessary, since he had been compiling the Codex Astartes throughout the Great Crusade, and the doctrines were pretty much already being used and had extensively been tested by his Legion while they had been developed. But that has changed, and now Guilliman was writing the Codex doctrines "on the spot" during the Heresy, and his own Legion was as unfamiliar with these new doctrines as anyone else. An utterly ridiculous change in their background, to justify another ridiculous change in their background. It is now very hard to not be convinced that McNeill is not only incapable to write for Ultramarines, he is deliberately out to take them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I must say I am personally liking the new direction of Ultras fluff very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I am not in the least bit surprised that a lot of people will like this "new direction". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I am not in the least bit surprised that a lot of people will like this "new direction". I can only imagine what the popular reputation of the Ultramarines in the Heresy will go to ''They did nothing in the Heresy'' to ''They chose to do nothing in the Heresy and let the Emperor fall cuz Guilliman was an idiot''. I think the events to come in the Age of Darkness (the time period, not the anthology) will go a long way to redeeming them for you, and restoring them to their rightful place as perceived heroes, dude. I earnestly hope so. The Ultramarines get enough flak as it is. The new relavations of them being semi-traitors during during the Heresy doesn't really help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I think the events to come in the Age of Darkness (the time period, not the anthology) will go a long way to redeeming them for you, and restoring them to their rightful place as perceived heroes, dude. I earnestly hope so. The Ultramarines get enough flak as it is. The new relavations of them being semi-traitors during during the Heresy doesn't really help. It may be small comfort, but as far as I know, everyone around that table likes the Ultramarines. There're no personal grudges on display, and - speaking for myself, personally - I'd dearly like the Ultramarines to recover some reputation that stretches beyond "They're the best because it says so here" and "They're boring". Dan's doing the Calth novel, so I think it's fair to say the Ultramarines are going to come out of that shining bright. Look how the Sons of Horus looked in Horus Rising, and the Space Wolves looked in Prospero Burns. When he writes Space Marines, he makes that Legion the best. That's a very different approach to me, but it's Dan, and it's also insanely popular. Ultramarine fans have nothing to worry about where that novel is concerned. Two of the things I'm very, very keen to present in the future is the versatility of the Codex Astartes (in 40K), and the noble strength of the Ultramarines (in 30K). The problem with that is I'm nowhere near getting to write about them. But it's definitely something I'll be bringing up at HH meetings a lot. Still, I'm sure the other guys understand it as well as anyone. I just like the sound of my own voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 Good, as long as there's some hope. The Ultramarines can't handle another wave of insults and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 All I want is for GW/BL to bring back the original fluff that the entire Ultramarines legion turned traitor in the Horus Heresy and had to be replaced by a brand new set of Marines. Is that too much of a retretcon to ask for??? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashur Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 So AoT leaves the White Scars as the only legion without a HH story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 I'm sorry, why are we calling the Ultras traitors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 A mistaken impression from the short story, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 A mistaken impression from the short story, apparently. Yeah, I read it but didn't read "traitor". Trying to figure out what I may have missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 Pg 12. the words treason is explicitly used in regards to Guilliman's actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 Pg 12. the words treason is explicitly used in regards to Guilliman's actions. I thought that was just part of the wargames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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