age of darknes?

[nagashnee]

I am quite fond of this new 'direction' if that is what it turns out to be, gives the Ultras some character.

[Unintentional Batman]

Agreed. While Rules of Engagement was a very shoddily written story, this is the first time ever that I have found Ultras even a bit interesting outside of the time Rob got trolled by Alpharius at Eskrador (or Imperium got trolled by Alpha Legion, depending on if the IA article is a troll).

[SCC]

Pg 12. the words treason is explicitly used in regards to Guilliman's actions.

 

I thought that was just part of the wargames.

 

 

I think it's more the idea of Imperium Secundus that is being seen as the betrayal here Rags. That idea could also be reinforced by the last words in the book too when the Lion states that Horus isn't the only one who sees himself as heir to the throne. There's a lovely sense of irony to that accusation - that Guilliman is deliberately sitting out the war - given that similar accusation have been levelled at the Lion for years (although their supposed end-games are quite different, the Lion waiting to see who wins and Guilliman waiting to take over) :)

 

Personally it'll take more than one short story to sell me on the idea that Guilliman deliberately abstained from action in the Heresy - the same with el'Jonson, I'm yet to see anything that says he was anything but loyal to his Father. It's also worth remembering that the UM location makes their intervention in time nigh impossible - that's stated in numerous sources and not obviously contradicted in the short story here.

 

Dipping back into the el'Jonson as a traitor theory for a moment, in many ways Savage Weapons reinforces the DA's loyalty in mind mind stating as it does several times that the First Legion can't move to Terra due to warp storms despite the Lion's wish to join his Father and brother Primarchs on the ramparts of the Palace on Terra. Add to that the obvious bitterness of the struggle between DA and NL and the idea of el'Jonson sitting on the sidelines waiting for a victor seems more remote than ever to me.

 

[Son of Rawl]

One thing I have to ask A-D-B, WHERES ANGRON AND THE WORLD EATERS!!!!

[spu00sed]

When during all of this time were the ultras attacked by the word bearers?

 

I thought that the battle for Calth happned quite early in the heresy, but it was protracted, stopping the ultras from joining the war.

 

Gulliman, could easily be testing his codex with his reserve legions, whilst his main legions fought the word bearers.

[Aegnor]

Nah, it was explicitly after Calth.

[Gree]

Pg 12. the words treason is explicitly used in regards to Guilliman's actions.

 

I thought that was just part of the wargames.

 

No it was not, it was in regard to the Imperium Secundus.

[Tybrus]

So on ROE,

 

The main thing that jumped out at me, was the number of "Battle Companies" used in these "War Games". It is stated a number of times how this battle company is used here and there, and they are all numbered. The Highest Number I saw was the 49th Battle company.

 

Now lets use what else is is said in the story, that old Bob the Primach had just handed down "Protocols" that all of the Battle Companies were set up under Lord Bob's orders to be a standard size. That said it is also noted that the "troublesum 4th" held the "Standard" 3000 battle brothers.

 

Now them simple Math would show that 3000*49= 147,000 battle Brothers in the UM legion. Now I have not seem much else in the other HH books to lead up to understand the size of a legion. We see stuff like up to and including companies in the 20's for number of "chapter" numbers, but I do not recall anything about how many brothers were per "chapter" .

 

Sooooo with that said, RoE leds up to believe that at least 49 battle companies of the Smuff's are engaged in these War Games, and that the OpFor is at least on par to these numbers, as they battle over 3 or 4 worlds in the Ultramar system.

 

It also clearly states that Battles are raging and that Bob is sitting around playing Wwar games and writing his book, as well as playing HORUS in the games them selves. The Games also speak of "broken Armor, and buildings" as the Captain of the 4th looks over the battle field in the end.

 

 

So that said it leaves us with the following that as of now is fact thanks to this story. (I always hated Ultra's so I didn't mind this story as all, because all it did was making them look stupid.)

 

Facts:

1) At least 49 battle companies were deployed in the Wargames, or 147,000 battle brothers. It is not said if the OpFor is of equal size, or if the 147,000 included both Opfor, and Ultra forces.

2) The effort was put forth to Paint, and equip them as the true traitor legions

3) That tests were also run on none traitor legions at these times (Salamanders)

4) That between battles Lord Bob would update his work and then retest.

5) That the Planets of Ultramar were not Producing or providing any help to stop the Hours, they were fully involved at a world level in these war games.

 

 

 

So ok all that said, you now tell me how this does NOT make them traitors. In face the Ultra marine Captain says a number of times how "They are traitors" when speaking about the Ultra's themselves. This could be as simple as guilt for playing games while the Galaxy burned, or go as far as to mean that Lord Bob ignored and or refused orders to aid in the War.

 

So in closing, I think that not only was the story a waste of my time to read, but it gives me nothing but more hate for the Ultar's. It reminds me of the stupid Calgar fluff from the Nids last dex. "Ill try and lead them away from the planet, everyone but except the 1st company come with me. We will be "Right back"...The concept seems sound, until you not that he leaves the Cap controlled airspace over the planet with the defense stations, PDF fleets, and ground to air support. Instead he allows the defenses to fall before then engaging the fleet with his remaining forces. It seems like more people that have no concept of tactics and think they are are cool in writing, and then flub it because they make no sense, in a RL.

 

So, RoE Stupid waste of time, bad concept, stupid tactics, and poorly thought out and enacted. If this is really what was going on with Lord Bob, it only serves to make me hate the Ultra's more then ever before.

[Gree]

Sooooo with that said, RoE leds up to believe that at least 49 battle companies of the Smuff's are engaged in these War Games, and that the OpFor is at least on par to these numbers, as they battle over 3 or 4 worlds in the Ultramar system.

 

No, just because the 49th Company was deployed does not mean that 49 companies where deployed.

 

If the 2nd and 5th companies are deployed in war does that mean five companies in total are deployed?

 

It also clearly states that Battles are raging and that Bob is sitting around playing Wwar games and writing his book, as well as playing HORUS in the games them selves. The Games also speak of "broken Armor, and buildings" as the Captain of the 4th looks over the battle field in the end.

 

That's only a small part of a bigger picture as the rest of the book shows.

 

Facts:

1) At least 49 battle companies were deployed in the Wargames, or 147,000 battle brothers. It is not said if the OpFor is of equal size, or if the 147,000 included both Opfor, and Ultra forces.

 

No that's not a fact at all, that's your assumption.

 

2) The effort was put forth to Paint, and equip them as the true traitor legions

 

Because there would be little use otherwise in wargames.

 

3) That tests were also run on none traitor legions at these times (Salamanders)

 

Done for ambiguous reasons as stated in the story.

 

4) That between battles Lord Bob would update his work and then retest.

 

As befitting someone of Guilliman's intelligence and genius.

 

5) That the Planets of Ultramar were not Producing or providing any help to stop the Hours, they were fully involved at a world level in these war games.

 

No, you don't know that. We know from othwer short stories that the Ultramarines where indeed involved in anti-Horus efforts.

 

So ok all that said, you now tell me how this does NOT make them traitors. In face the Ultra marine Captain says a number of times how "They are traitors" when speaking about the Ultra's themselves. This could be as simple as guilt for playing games while the Galaxy burned, or go as far as to mean that Lord Bob ignored and or refused orders to aid in the War.

 

He said that because they where on the traitor side in the wargames. Check out a smilar statement to the ''Salamander'' he talks to. He even acts like the attack on Ultramar is real even through it is not.

 

As for orders? Guilliman may have not even gotten them int he first place. Collected Visions state that Dorn has no idea if the Ultramarines got the orders or not and it further desribes the extensisve diffuculties with trying to communicate with the other Legions.

[JamesI]

Tybrus, there is no reason to discuss hatred.

 

It does not serve your argument to bring up your dislike of Calgar. It only shows that you hate the Ultras and readers response is colored by your hatred of the Ultramaries.

 

Lets keep the discussion rational and leave our emotions out of it.

[Legatus]

So, RoE Stupid waste of time, bad concept, stupid tactics, and poorly thought out and enacted. If this is really what was going on with Lord Bob, it only serves to make me hate the Ultra's more then ever before.

You need to be aware that this is the result of the shortcomings of the author. He most likely did not try to present a bad concept, stupid tactics and a poorly thought out narrative. Then again, maybe he did. Can one author get a Chapter so absolutely wrong by accident?

[JamesI]

So, RoE Stupid waste of time, bad concept, stupid tactics, and poorly thought out and enacted. If this is really what was going on with Lord Bob, it only serves to make me hate the Ultra's more then ever before.

You need to be aware that this is the result of the shortcomings of the author. He most likely did not try to present a bad concept, stupid tactics and a poorly thought out narrative. Then again, maybe he did. Can one author get a Chapter so absolutely wrong by accident?

Ask the BA fans about Swallow.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Pg 12. the words treason is explicitly used in regards to Guilliman's actions.

 

I thought that was just part of the wargames.

 

 

I think it's more the idea of Imperium Secundus that is being seen as the betrayal here Rags. That idea could also be reinforced by the last words in the book too when the Lion states that Horus isn't the only one who sees himself as heir to the throne. There's a lovely sense of irony to that accusation - that Guilliman is deliberately sitting out the war - given that similar accusation have been levelled at the Lion for years (although their supposed end-games are quite different, the Lion waiting to see who wins and Guilliman waiting to take over) :)

 

Personally it'll take more than one short story to sell me on the idea that Guilliman deliberately abstained from action in the Heresy - the same with el'Jonson, I'm yet to see anything that says he was anything but loyal to his Father. It's also worth remembering that the UM location makes their intervention in time nigh impossible - that's stated in numerous sources and not obviously contradicted in the short story here.

 

Dipping back into the el'Jonson as a traitor theory for a moment, in many ways Savage Weapons reinforces the DA's loyalty in mind mind stating as it does several times that the First Legion can't move to Terra due to warp storms despite the Lion's wish to join his Father and brother Primarchs on the ramparts of the Palace on Terra. Add to that the obvious bitterness of the struggle between DA and NL and the idea of el'Jonson sitting on the sidelines waiting for a victor seems more remote than ever to me.

 

 

Agree 100 percent. Thank you sir.

 

 

-----------------

 

That said, the one force that has me totally head scratching and teeth gnashing, is the Alpha Legion. :lol: Those who have read all the stories will know what I mean.

[Epistolary Exander]

My view on the actions of Guilliman on Age of Darkness is that he may believe he is acting with the best of intentions during the heresy but his actions could be construed as being that of a traitor by the other loyalist legions & the Imperium as a whole. Yes the Ultramarines have fought against & mainpulated situations against Horus, but Guilliman has no authority to order another Primarch or his legion for which he has tried to do with the Dark Angels.

 

Atm in current HH fluff the only Imperial Primarch that can order other loyalist Primarchs is Rogal Dorn & he was given that authority by at the very least Malcador and the very most the Emperor. Considering The Thousand Sons were attacked by the Wolves because the wider Imperium believed (and did) Magnus had betrayed the Emperor's word. It doesnt look too good for Guilliman to be bossing about his peers, when it appears Guilliman has not recieved the authority to do so by the Emperor, Malcador or Rogal Dorn to do so. I admit it may be possible Guilliman could of recieved permission to issue orders to certain Legions from his superiors, but this is not known atm.

 

This cirmcumstances helps to raises questions about Guilliman & the Ultramarines themselves, because Guilliman is known to have carried on with this behaviour after the Heresy.

[Gree]

So, RoE Stupid waste of time, bad concept, stupid tactics, and poorly thought out and enacted. If this is really what was going on with Lord Bob, it only serves to make me hate the Ultra's more then ever before.

You need to be aware that this is the result of the shortcomings of the author. He most likely did not try to present a bad concept, stupid tactics and a poorly thought out narrative. Then again, maybe he did. Can one author get a Chapter so absolutely wrong by accident?

 

Actually, the concept appears to be a united descision, judginh by A D-B's comments and the other two short stories in the novel.

 

My view on the actions of Guilliman on Age of Darkness is that he may believe he is acting with the best of intentions during the heresy but his actions could be construed as being that of a traitor by the other loyalist legions & the Imperium as a whole. Yes the Ultramarines have fought against & mainpulated situations against Horus, but Guilliman has no authority to order another Primarch or his legion for which he has tried to do with the Dark Angels.

 

Guilliman never ordered anything. The statement is that he wished the Lion to join him, it sounded more like a request to me.

 

This cirmcumstances helps to raises questions about Guilliman & the Ultramarines themselves, because Guilliman is known to have carried on with this behaviour after the Heresy.

 

No he did not. The changes after the Imperium where mandatedf by the Codex Astartes.

[Epistolary Exander]

It is subjective to whether or not a summons is a direct order or not. My view is that a summons is an order as taken in the legal context, as in you are required to be somewhere because someone or organisation tells you to. Guilliman may have wished for the Lion to be with him, but I believe from tone the Lion uses in the story he believes he is being given an order by Guilliman.

 

Guilliman did kind of force the codex on the Imperium after the Heresy & in distant future of current 40k fluff that could be seen as Guilliman ordering the codex to be implimented. Rogal Dorn was forced to reorganise his legion in order to avert another war because Guilliman would not back down on having the codex implimented. From what I am aware neither the Emperor or Malcador rescended their orders to make Rogal Dorn in charge of loyalist forces & it is not known if Dorn chose relinquish this role before the debate on the codex. Although the Emperor did tell Dorn & Khan that "they know their duties". This matter is really open to interpretation.

 

Saying this the inquisition could have decided to side with Guilliman on issue of the codex & that would of put Dorn in a very tough spot. Yet we will probably never know ;).

[Gree]

Guilliman did kind of force the codex on the Imperium after the Heresy & in distant future of current 40k fluff that could be seen as Guilliman ordering the codex to be implimented. Rogal Dorn was forced to reorganise his legion in order to avert another war because Guilliman would not back down on having the codex implimented.

 

Not quite. Only the reduction of size elements appeared to be required as the Salamanders, the Iron Hands, the Space Wolves, etc, etc, all retain non-Codec elements. In fact that appeared to be the only issue Dorn had.

 

And, as Insignium Astartes notes, this was done as the behest of the High Lords.

 

From what I am aware neither the Emperor or Malcador rescended their orders to make Rogal Dorn in charge of loyalist forces & it is not known if Dorn chose relinquish this role before the debate on the codex. Although the Emperor did tell Dorn & Khan that "they know their duties". This matter is really open to interpretation.

 

Dorn is guility of dereliction of duty then. Guilliman at least has the excuse of possibly not getting the orders to go to Terra from Dorn, but Dorn did not stay and command the Imperial forces after the Heresy. Dorn ignored his duty and went off on a vengence crusade against Chaos. He could have helped rebuild the Imperium, instead he ignored the Emperor's wishes and went off on his own little revenge trip. He let his emotions control him.

 

When Dorn failed in his role the High Lords and Guilliman where forced to step up to the plate and do what needed to be done. Dorn only has himself to blame for splitting up his Legion.

 

Saying this the inquisition could have decided to side with Guilliman on issue of the codex & that would of put Dorn in a very tough spot. Yet we will probably never know ;).

 

We already know the High Lords ordered it to be done and Guilliman was charged by them.

[Epistolary Exander]

According to the Templars dex the issue of the codex was quite decisive amongst the surviving loyalist Primarchs, which was why Dorn relented. Yet this account differs from the IA: Imperial Fists take on the splitting of the legion. It is again open to interpretation as to howmuch of an issue the codex was for each Primarch, legion & chapter. It is clear that the different legions & their successor chapters treated the codex differently at times from each other.

 

Dorn certainly did allow his emotions to cloud his actions at times during his life. Yet he did obey his orders when he was placed in commeand of the Imperial forces. It would be highly unlikely he would have gone off on crusade without leaving some of command system in place after the Heresy. Saying this it is concievale that Dorn had a hand in creating the High Lords of Terra. Dorn was known for ability to work with other Imperial organisations.

[Gree]

According to the Templars dex the issue of the codex was quite decisive amongst the surviving loyalist Primarchs, which was why Dorn relented. Yet this account differs from the IA: Imperial Fists take on the splitting of the legion. It is again open to interpretation as to howmuch of an issue the codex was for each Primarch, legion & chapter. It is clear that the different legions & their successor chapters treated the codex differently at times from each other.

 

I've read the Templar dex and I assume it refeers to Legion sizes. If Chapters had to adopt the codex in all aspects then why did the aftermentioned chapters retain non-codex aspects and the Templars their own organization?

 

Dorn certainly did allow his emotions to cloud his actions at times during his life. Yet he did obey his orders when he was placed in commeand of the Imperial forces.

 

And then he shriked them and forced Guilliman and the others to take control.

 

It would be highly unlikely he would have gone off on crusade without leaving some of command system in place after the Heresy. Saying this it is concievale that Dorn had a hand in creating the High Lords of Terra. Dorn was known for ability to work with other Imperial organisations.

 

The High Lords where formed from the Council of Terra according to collected visions. They don't appear to be somethign Dorn set up at Dorn was described as blinded in the Fists article and that others shaped the Imperium.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I don't think Rules of Engagement implied the Smerfs where traitorous at all. I think they were doing the best they could with the hand they were given. Unable to get to Terra or anywhere important they prepared for the different possibility's they might face when the warp storms calmed. Just as has been said in the old fluff. That they fought and beat the WB was more then most Loyal Legions can boast over the same period.

What else could they do then play war games? The WB's were gone. Travailing in the warp was stupid. The Emperium Secundus game was sketchy but the Ultrus were the traitors in it. The Death Guard, a Traitor Legion, were the Loyalists. If you are going to be a Traitor for /real/, you would not pretend you were the bad guys ( unless you are the Freaking Alpha Legion..... These guys are HARD to read eh?). Seems like they were preparing for ANYTHING, even being the ones who people would call traitor. If they were unable to get to Terra in time and Horus won, they would be the loosers. When they tried to form a new Empire the Death Guard might be on their @$$.

 

 

 

The Last Remebracers was Really good. My Favorite character in the HH is Iacton Qruze. I love how he was the Half-Heard and it was a joke. He speaks quite but most don't want to hear him anyway. Now he is the soft spoken menace crossed with EF Huton. He is now Back on my list of 8 hooded attendance taken before the Emperor by Malcador.

"Innocence proves nothing" comes from him?!?!?! That blows me away.

 

 

Iron Within was my favorite. This could have been a full length SM battles book. I would have loved to read the full account of this fight. Every part was very clever.

"It is nothing less then irony that an enemy is at its weakest mere moments before victory: when they are at their most stretched an committed in seeking such success."

Sounds Like Sun Tzu.

 

The Face of Treachery......... :jaw:

This story turns my whole perspective of 40k on its head. The First time i learned of the Primarchs and their legions, i picked Corax and his Raven Guard as the ones i would follow. I told my friends many years ago i though Corax was the "invisible" Primarch of rumor. The events of Isstavan V was then hard to except. The "treachery" made me so mad. I spent a lot of time trying to nail down who was to blame. After a lot of thought i began to focus on the Alpha Legion to be the Main Legion to vent on. I really wanted to hear the story of how Corax made it off the planet. It had to show how much a Bad @$$ he was that he could out wit even the Alpha Legion. :confused: :eek :cry: :blink: :wacko: :sick:

 

 

Like getting kicked in the jimmy.

[Dinks]

Sounds Like Sun Tzu.

The Codex Astartes is a bastardised (and very bad) version of Sun Tzu's - The Art of War, you should know that. :confused:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Lord Lorne Walkier:

 

i think of it this way...

The RG fleet managed to to get into nearly perfect position on its own accord.

the RG remnants on the planet managed to escape capture and survive repeated assaults on their skill alone.

 

all the reveal in the Face of Treachery means is that the AL are awesome at being sneaky. if the World Eater ship engaged the rescuers, the RG still would have gotten most of the survivors off the planet, just not all. they would have taken a beating, but they DID outnumber the lone W.E. ship. it would have been a "win" for the RG, just not the "flawless victory"for the Legion(yes i am aware the bait might have felt differently).

 

WLK

[esinhorn]

I think Lord Lorne hit the nail on the head.

If Guilliman really wanted to start a Second Empire he could of easily done so.

Would the Wolves or Angels side with the High Lords,I think not.

All he would need to do is make it a Republic with each primarch with his own slice

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Sounds Like Sun Tzu.

The Codex Astartes is a bastardised (and very bad) version of Sun Tzu's - The Art of War, you should know that. :(

 

This is true. Though the guy who i was talking about is a Iron Warrior named Barabas Dantioch, not Roboute Guilliman. I can only hope that he adds the Warsmiths knowledge to his Codex.

@Lord Lorne Walkier:

 

i think of it this way...

The RG fleet managed to to get into nearly perfect position on its own accord.

the RG remnants on the planet managed to escape capture and survive repeated assaults on their skill alone.

 

Not So fast. I don't think it is a given that the Raven Guard did all this with no help. What is clear is that they decided not to throw their lives away in a pointless assault into a trap. They chose to try and live. If they had help in doing so or not, seems to be a bit open for debate. I'm thinking that maybe the Alpha Legion played a bigger part then we know. If the RG did get help it seems they were unaware of it. As of now we don't have any proof at all that the AL even Fired a shot on Isstvan. We know they were there. I could see them pretending to move in to trap the loyalists but maybe not doing it fast. Maybe they dogged it. Maybe they miss lead the traitors on wild goose chases to give the loyalists a chance to escape. Give false reports saying the RG were some place that they were not. They could have also left a "Back Door" open for the RG rescue fleet to sneak into.

It is clear from this story that Alpharius wanted Corax alive. Who is to say how far he would go to make it happen.

This kind of tangent gives me hope that maybe Vulken DID make it off Isstvaan V. Maybe Alpharius helped him also...

 

If you take the book Legion as truth then this is not so far fetch. I think we might actually be getting the "Truth" about the Alpha Legion.

 

all the reveal in the Face of Treachery means is that the AL are awesome at being sneaky. if the World Eater ship engaged the rescuers, the RG still would have gotten most of the survivors off the planet, just not all. they would have taken a beating, but they DID outnumber the lone W.E. ship. it would have been a "win" for the RG, just not the "flawless victory"for the Legion(yes i am aware the bait might have felt differently).

 

WLK

 

I would agree they would get /some/ of their survivors off not most.

They were about to be cut off. There is also no guarantee that Corax would have been one of the lucky ones. What if he did not make it. I think that "win" could have been a Charlie Sheen Win... not the kind most others would agree with.

 

 

Also if you say leaving with less then 3 k Astartes when you came with 80 is Flawless, i don't think we can agree.

[Tyros]

Lord Lorne, Vulcan did make it of Istavaan as he is said to have left his legion in the 5th edition of C:SM. I think that the codex says something along the lines that he left his legion in M32 or something like that. He was around for sevral hundred years after the Heresy.