age of darknes?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, Vulkan is mentioned in other sources indirectly as having survived the Massacres. He took a part debating whether to introduce the Codex or not, and promised his Chapter that if they found the artefacts he scattered around the galaxy that he'd return. It's hard to do all that when you're dead.

[Aegnor]

Without wanting to be too critical of Sanders, as there were many positives to it, I have to say that Iron Within was probably my least favourite story in the book. Purely because I found it's prose hard work. It had great ideas, and cool events within it, but I really had to force myself to keep reading it as the style of expression didn't grab me. From what others are saying, that seems like it might just be me. Other ideas had less cool contents, but I enjoyed a lot more. :shrug:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Sounds Like Sun Tzu.

The Codex Astartes is a bastardised (and very bad) version of Sun Tzu's - The Art of War, you should know that. :D

 

This is true. Though the guy who i was talking about is a Iron Warrior named Barabas Dantioch, not Roboute Guilliman. I can only hope that he adds the Warsmiths knowledge to his Codex.

@Lord Lorne Walkier:

 

i think of it this way...

The RG fleet managed to to get into nearly perfect position on its own accord.

the RG remnants on the planet managed to escape capture and survive repeated assaults on their skill alone.

 

Not So fast. I don't think it is a given that the Raven Guard did all this with no help. What is clear is that they decided not to throw their lives away in a pointless assault into a trap. They chose to try and live. If they had help in doing so or not, seems to be a bit open for debate. I'm thinking that maybe the Alpha Legion played a bigger part then we know. If the RG did get help it seems they were unaware of it. As of now we don't have any proof at all that the AL even Fired a shot on Isstvan. We know they were there. I could see them pretending to move in to trap the loyalists but maybe not doing it fast. Maybe they dogged it. Maybe they miss lead the traitors on wild goose chases to give the loyalists a chance to escape. Give false reports saying the RG were some place that they were not. They could have also left a "Back Door" open for the RG rescue fleet to sneak into.

It is clear from this story that Alpharius wanted Corax alive. Who is to say how far he would go to make it happen.

This kind of tangent gives me hope that maybe Vulken DID make it off Isstvaan V. Maybe Alpharius helped him also...

 

If you take the book Legion as truth then this is not so far fetch. I think we might actually be getting the "Truth" about the Alpha Legion.

 

all the reveal in the Face of Treachery means is that the AL are awesome at being sneaky. if the World Eater ship engaged the rescuers, the RG still would have gotten most of the survivors off the planet, just not all. they would have taken a beating, but they DID outnumber the lone W.E. ship. it would have been a "win" for the RG, just not the "flawless victory"for the Legion(yes i am aware the bait might have felt differently).

 

WLK

 

I would agree they would get /some/ of their survivors off not most.

They were about to be cut off. There is also no guarantee that Corax would have been one of the lucky ones. What if he did not make it. I think that "win" could have been a Charlie Sheen Win... not the kind most others would agree with.

 

 

Also if you say leaving with less then 3 k Astartes when you came with 80 is Flawless, i don't think we can agree.

 

One of my great fears of the HH is the Alpha Legion becoming super boogeyman that is used to tidy up any situation. The AL were at the Dropsite Massacre. We know that. If they appeared, but had fired at the loyalist, I am pretty sure SOMEBODY would have noticed. And then they would have been executed by the traitors. I hope the AL remain the sneak supreme of the HH, not the Marty Stu. If they are capable of all the fan theories say/want of them, then they would have the power of all 20 legions combined!

The loyalty of the AL is no question to me. They are supreme sneaks, and will play up their role. If they had to shed loyalist blood to position themselves for a larger, more effective betrayal later then they would. They know their goals and wont lie to themselves about it.

 

The hunt for the RG was directed by Perturbo. The AL have nothing to do with it. Crediting them where not the slightest sliver of a trace exists seems to be stretching things at best.

 

(and yes, I have read all the HH)

 

Okay, “flawless victory” was a bit sarcastic. Maybe more than a bit. The Dropsite Massacre was a disaster of epic (that word doesn’t seem large enough to convey just how bad I view of Massacre) size. The fact Corax got 3k Marines off of the planet is amazing to me.

And Vulkan does get off the planet somehow, as he opposes the Codex being applied to the SM legions…now how he does it is a good question.

Hope this clears things up.

 

WLK

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

One of my great fears of the HH is

 

WLK

 

Well i guess arguing about what the Alpha Legion did or did not do is still folly. If Vulken survives with the help of the AL then i guess i said it first.

 

Now Speaking of great fears... Lil Horus.

I love how Loken can punk Traitors from half way across the Galaxy. Maybe the Mournival ceremony was more binding then even the members gave it credit for.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

One of my great fears of the HH is

 

WLK

 

Well i guess arguing about what the Alpha Legion did or did not do is still folly. If Vulken survives with the help of the AL then i guess i said it first.

 

Now Speaking of great fears... Lil Horus.

I love how Loken can punk Traitors from half way across the Galaxy. Maybe the Mournival ceremony was more binding then even the members gave it credit for.

 

 

the Lil Horus thing mkes perfect sense to me, as its has nothing to do with Loken being mary sue, but more about an Astartes finally embracing guilt over hsi deeds. we are shown that Lil Horus is feeling alot of guilt over his deeds, and maybe now we can see just how a Astartes can break down like any other being.

 

WLK

[Captain Tezdal]

That Little Horus story bothered me quite a bit, or maybe it was just me....but did the word "transhuman" not appear like 500 times in that story?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

That Little Horus story bothered me quite a bit, or maybe it was just me....but did the word "transhuman" not appear like 500 times in that story?

 

it did, but i rationalized it as this is the first sucessful attempt to create a advanced human using human stock...so the "transhuman" appearing so often was a heavy handed attempt to remind us that ( and lil horus) that regardless of the advancements, they were still human.

 

regardless of the new orgna,s power armor, training from heck, they were still human at their root and could fall to human faults in the end. which is something that many astartyes of that time period and the 40k timeline seem to forget.

 

WLK

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

One of my great fears of the HH is

 

WLK

 

Well i guess arguing about what the Alpha Legion did or did not do is still folly. If Vulken survives with the help of the AL then i guess i said it first.

 

Now Speaking of great fears... Lil Horus.

I love how Loken can punk Traitors from half way across the Galaxy. Maybe the Mournival ceremony was more binding then even the members gave it credit for.

 

 

the Lil Horus thing mkes perfect sense to me, as its has nothing to do with Loken being mary sue, but more about an Astartes finally embracing guilt over hsi deeds. we are shown that Lil Horus is feeling a lot of guilt over his deeds, and maybe now we can see just how a Astartes can break down like any other being.

 

WLK

 

If this was about only Guilt, why would he be thinking about Loken. Should he not be thinking about Torgaddon? He thinks they are both dead. The Blood of Loken is on Abaddons hands not his, Right? This is about something /more/. This is the Oath he took to his Mournival Brothers coming back to bite his Traitorous @$$. This is about the force of Loken's anger projected across the Galaxy, through the connection that the Mournival created. He is /That/ mad. Cant wait to read the story of when they meet again. Bet we find out if Astartes can crap their Power Armour.

[Hrolleif]

If this was about only Guilt, why would he be thinking about Loken. Should he not be thinking about Torgaddon? He thinks they are both dead. The Blood of Loken is on Abaddons hands not his, Right? This is about something /more/. This is the Oath he took to his Mournival Brothers coming back to bite his Traitorous @$$. This is about the force of Loken's anger projected across the Galaxy, through the connection that the Mournival created. He is /That/ mad. Cant wait to read the story of when they meet again. Bet we find out if Astartes can crap their Power Armour.

Maybe he was just fixated on Loken as a representation of what happened. Torgaddon was an older member, yes, but Loken appeared to have more an impact in those situations and probably sticks out more in his mind.

[Mykra]

If this was about only Guilt, why would he be thinking about Loken. Should he not be thinking about Torgaddon? He thinks they are both dead. The Blood of Loken is on Abaddons hands not his, Right? This is about something /more/. This is the Oath he took to his Mournival Brothers coming back to bite his Traitorous @$$. This is about the force of Loken's anger projected across the Galaxy, through the connection that the Mournival created. He is /That/ mad. Cant wait to read the story of when they meet again. Bet we find out if Astartes can crap their Power Armour.

Maybe he was just fixated on Loken as a representation of what happened. Torgaddon was an older member, yes, but Loken appeared to have more an impact in those situations and probably sticks out more in his mind.

 

I thought it was more that Loken represented what the chapter was or should have been better than anyone else in the Mournival, so it was the face his guilt assigned as Little Horus has been sliding towards his Black Legion end.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

If this was about only Guilt, why would he be thinking about Loken. Should he not be thinking about Torgaddon? He thinks they are both dead. The Blood of Loken is on Abaddons hands not his, Right? This is about something /more/. This is the Oath he took to his Mournival Brothers coming back to bite his Traitorous @$$. This is about the force of Loken's anger projected across the Galaxy, through the connection that the Mournival created. He is /That/ mad. Cant wait to read the story of when they meet again. Bet we find out if Astartes can crap their Power Armour.

Maybe he was just fixated on Loken as a representation of what happened. Torgaddon was an older member, yes, but Loken appeared to have more an impact in those situations and probably sticks out more in his mind.

 

I thought it was more that Loken represented what the chapter was or should have been better than anyone else in the Mournival, so it was the face his guilt assigned as Little Horus has been sliding towards his Black Legion end.

 

When Loken was "marked" into the Mournival, he felt the ceremony "..was a ritual, and it smacked dangerously of the practice of corpse-whisperers and spiritualists. The entire process seemed shot through with supperstition and arcane worship,..." Duing this Ritual they make a "Oath as firm as any oath of moment they have ever undertaken." " A bond that only death will break "

 

Quotes from Horus Risisng pg 74-84.

[weycon]

Little Horus.

 

p.302.

Pray this death takes you, traitor.

 

 

p.304.

More White Scars and renegade Iron Hands had sprung their trap.

 

 

Would someone care to eloborate what Little Horus means by

Traitor and renegade

?

[gaurdian31]

I want to read more about the loyalists in the traitor legions. The Iron Warriors story was good fun. As for Little Horus in his mind the loyal to the Emperor Astartes

are traitors

IMHO.

[weycon]

I'll rephrase.

 

Why does Little Horus

only call Iron Hands Traitor and Renegade, and not the White Scars

 

[Aegnor]

Worth noting that while Aximand is having a bit of a crisis during this story, by my reading, he seems to have largely emerged from it by the end - the line that:

after he had his face sewn back on, he always looked invincible

suggests to me that the process he went through leading up to the ambush described, and the trauma he went through there actually resolved a lot of his inner turmoil - it quashed the doubts that had been there.

 

I think that he was worried by Loken in particular because of Loken's role in the brotherhood. The repeated discussion of Aximand's role as melacholia, and his views of what that humor means is the clue here. Loken was the phlegmatic element of the Mournival, the element that keeps balance and rationality, which resists excess in favour of constancy to the core of what an individual stands for. Aximand, as the melancholic element, is naturally given to reflection and contemplation of changes that occur, particularly painful ones, from which they tend to produce new conclusions or directions. As such, its in keeping with these archetypes that Abnett has ascribed to them that Loken is the one that is sacrificed when the Sons of Horus give up their balance, that Abaddon as choler is the one who leads that movement and remains focused on doing what he sees as necessary, and that Aximand is the one who is thrown into a fit of self-reflection. Torgaddon as the sanguine element represented friendship and the ability to accept differences - something that, for the Sons of Horus, was also sacrificed on Istvaan III. He represented the brotherhood within the legion as it had been, just as Loken represented the legion's duty and self-control as it had been.

 

The key bit with this is that Abnett gives us the clue in the story itself - people often misunderstand melancholia as sadness or just mourning for what has happened. But it's more than that, it is the process by which people transform from traumatic events, and decide on a new direction. After the clash in this story, I think Aximand has done this, and is actually stronger than he was at any stage in the HH stories we've seen to date. I don't think it's a given at all that he's going to

crumble when confronted by Loken (by the way, how much longer do we reckon we need to spoiler that bit?) or

betray Horus in the end.

[Brother Captain Gladius]

I am only half way through it, and enjoying the book a lot, especially the last remembrancer! I am relatively new to posting on here, and havent figured out how to do the spoiler black out thingy, but can someone tell me why in ROE the Ultras are fighting those legions exactally. I understand all but one, without giving anything away, you all know who I mean!!! were they considered traitor by the ultras?

[snorkle]

 

They're fighting the sallies for two reasons I can see:

1. Guilliman isn't sure who turned traitor so he's just practicing fighting everyone.

or

2. He mentions that they will be known as traitors. So it is possible he is training for fighting loyalists as well.

I am not sure which reason is correct. It may be a little of each

 

[Ethrion]

I am only half way through it, and enjoying the book a lot, especially the last remembrancer! I am relatively new to posting on here, and havent figured out how to do the spoiler black out thingy, but can someone tell me why in ROE the Ultras are fighting those legions exactally. I understand all but one, without giving anything away, you all know who I mean!!! were they considered traitor by the ultras?

 

Spoilers are done like so:

 

spoiler blah blah blah /spoiler

 

but surround both spoiler words with these [ ]

 

 

actually if you hit reply to this message then have a look at the coding for this section at the top of the message box you'll see how to type it properly

 

[Brother Captain Gladius]

Ta very much.

 

still seems odd, all the others fit as they are considered the traitors. perhaps i am reading too much into it

[tank18]

Ok my 2 cents on ROE:

First off we make the assumption that the Ultra's had the ability to go to Terra right away. Warp storms all over the galaxy not to mention the Ultra muster was at Calth and if the WB fleet managed to do as much damage to the planet as they did then the Ultra fleet was probably pretty chewed up. Add to this that the shipyards in Ultramar orbited Calth and you take away the ability to quickly replace the chewed up fleet.

 

Second:

If the attack on Calth happened early in the Heresy then we forget that the whole thing didnt last a month. THe impression is that the whole thing may have take years. Thus plenty of time between Calth and the seige of Terra. The Ultra's may well have made best speed to Terra once this happened but it didnt happen right away.

So what we see in ROE is that like all good armies the Ultra's used the time to rebuild and learn the best way to fight whatever enemy they might encounter.