BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Apothecary is not worth it except for the odd day when you are rolling lots of 1s. I think he was included simply because every codex has FNP now. The banner is good for large squads plus it works for attached ICs as well. G :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I field apothecaries all the time and they dramatically increase the durability of my own terminators (BA codex). My terminators are not, however, wound-allocated, nor do they have 2w. My first experience against wound-allocated units were Nobz, which do have Feel No Pain but do not all have 2+ saves with 5+ invulns (thankfully). Even still, they would soak unbelievable amounts of small arms fire before losing even a single model. I'll never forget putting four salvos of rapid-fire into a Nob unit and then charging it...only to kill two models on the charge alone and none during shooting. (Yes, the assault teams also shot.) They are obtusely durable. A unit of 2w 2+ Sv FNP models that are each unique in war gear are going to effectively be invincible to small arms fire. Considering the fact that Paladin forces will be outnumbered 3+ to 1 and not all of those enemy models have S8 AP1 weapons, they're going to take more than their share of bolter rounds. I can see them getting buy without FNP, but I can also see them being even more unstoppable with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 IMO, playing against draigowing rather than playing with one.. id say apoths are brilliant at offsetting low model numbers by far the best way of killing paladins is with S8+ low AP weapons, but with stealth and draigo with 3++ and EW thats not always possible.. plus not everyone runs lots of these weapons.. apothecaries reduces the impact of small arms fire to almost negligible against pallies.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Build a 2k list following the restrictions for a Draigowing. You will see that those points could go a long ways towards a pysfleman. The Paladins are resilient enough without FNP. I dont even use an apoc for my Ard Boyz list. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Yea, Psi-rifleman are the Hammernators of the GK army. I refuse to take them on principle alone. <3 That's just me though; everybody else can enjoy them. I'm not allowed to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Well you will have some tough games ahead. I am a tournament player so they work well for my particular build. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 The Paladins are resilient enough without FNP. i think thats a matter of opinion and perspective, its certainly not a fact to be stated. my army works off the bucket of dice principle, having FNP halves the number of wounds id normally cause, thats a big deal edit: i think its fair to say that points wise it wouldnt be worth taking an apoth on anything less than a large squad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 They can take a full salvo of plasma rifles to the face and they will still be standing there. That is pretty darn resilient IMO. They are better than nob bikers if you have a Libby casting The Shrouding. I dont think anyone can argue against that either. It is more than just an opinion. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 edit: i think its fair to say that points wise it wouldnt be worth taking an apoth on anything less than a large squad I second this line of thinking. Personally I'll be taking an apoc in a squad of ten, but not in the five-man. They can take a full salvo of plasma rifles to the face and they will still be standing there. That is pretty darn resilient IMO. They are better than nob bikers if you have a Libby casting The Shrouding. I dont think anyone can argue against that either. It is more than just an opinion. It is pretty darn resilient. What then is the contention with more resilient? A 2+/4+ save vs small arms fire is significantly better than a 2+ save alone. Why be content with "I have one wound left!" when you could be content with "I still have two wounds left"? That's the line of thinking that's pressing me into building an apothecary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 There is overkill... to me FNP is an unnecessary waste of points. I have played many games now and no one has ever killed all my Paladins. Believe me, if I thought it held some value I would take the apothecary. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 How many Paladins have they killed? I remember early on in this thread, Nurglez mentioning that a conga line of paladins stretched out has a long reach: it's the kind of thing that can contest and control more than one point without too much trouble. More surviving paladins can definitely contribute to this. I'm not saying it's necessary in all cases, but I am definitely saying it's not to be written off lightly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 i played a list at 1750 that had draigo and a libby in with a large pally unit and the rest were small strikes and interceptors squads, with 2 NDK.. i tabled the pallies over two turns with my fire elements whilst slaughtering the smaller GK units with scouts in assault.. i used little to no low AP weaponry, it was done with thunderfire, bolter and sniper fire.. had he used an apothecary, it would have taken twice as long (id have been cat food long before then). the same guy now runs a pure draigowing, but has realised he needs the apoths.. i guess its a case for local meta, but if your running a 1750 army with less than 20 models then theres no such thing as "resilient enough" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Let me put it his way. Even when I combat squad them there has always been at least one left in each squad. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 There have been a few games, where an apoth would have helped for sure, but to fit it in I have to take the PT off the DK, and its not a trade off I'm willing to make. At 1500 points I add a libby, DK with HI and a rifleman, thats all I can afford. Also, taking an apoth would make me not want to combat squad at all (although in my experience combat squading hasn't helped me out that much), but I'm sure at some point's it is worth it. With 2 wounds and wound allocation, paladin's are pretty resilient to anything that doesn't instant kill them. Most things that will threaten them with enough low ap or high str weapons have a limited range, so should only get 1 or 2 salvos off (also accounting for cover, and if my teleporting dreadknight has distracted/flamed/assaulted them). Conga line can work, especially if you have a libby and draigo attached, 12 models on terminator sized bases can cover a lot of area. Well, should be taking my Draigo wing to 2 tournaments in September and October, both at 1750 points. for the 250 points I'm planning on adding a pimp libby and MCing a few more weapons (some of the psycannon's in the 10 man squad for sure). I'm a bit worried about squads packing combi melta's, like sternguard, wolfguard or termicide squads, I've used drop pods a few times but not played against them. Also have never played vs eldar or dark eldar, so that would be rather interesting too. Any other match up's you guys would think I should worry about? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I usually reserve everything versus armies packing lots of insta gib killing weapons and hope they come in first... once they are on the table and you know where they are it is not so bad. Dark eldar requires long range AT versus mech lists. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I wrote an entirely too long of a post on either LO or Here explaining exactly why Apothecaries are worthless upgrades for Paladin. I don't really feel like doing it again... Paladins are twice as resilient to small arms fire as GKTDAs for only a 37.5% increase in cost. A 5 man paladin unit can take the small arms fire required to eliminate a TDA unit and still function at full capacity. Why would you pay more to make them more resilient??? Paying an outrageous sum to upgrade one model to an Apothecary is unnecessary as an they are not twice as resilient to small arms in practice. Wounded models are prime candidates for ID wound allocation which greatly reduces the resiliency offered by FNP. Against anything else, no one is bringing enough small arms equivalent attacks to necessitate FNP. Point for Point you are much better off buying another paladin and some master crafting or a PT on DK. I have yet to have fought a battle where FNP on my Paladins would have been needed and certainly wouldn't have made a difference in the one game I lost and two I tied. Apothecaries look way better on paper than they perform on the table, and IMO they don't look very attractive on paper for their cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I'm not sure I'd take a Draigo wing to a tournament, at least not yet. Everybody's going to bring either three vindicators or three Devastator teams with 4 MMs a piece, which will ruin your day. Given that GC08 was able to mop them up with his trust Scout list, I'm not thinking they're up to at least my own local meta for tournies. If you got to the end of the game and had one model in each combat squad still alive...how many of those other models did you lose to 1s that you happened to roll versus small arms fire? I would pay to get a 50% shot at undoing that 1, personally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I'm a bit worried about squads packing combi melta's, like sternguard, wolfguard or termicide squads, I've used drop pods a few times but not played against them. Also have never played vs eldar or dark eldar, so that would be rather interesting too. Any other match up's you guys would think I should worry about? DE lance spam is very scary, though you are rather safe starting with a 10 man Driago unit as very few DE weapon platforms will be able to cause more than one ID wound per unit firing which Driago is more than happy to handle. DS your other units and look to possibly outflank the DKs. That all assumes you go 2nd. If you have first turn and they do not have Vect, you can deploy everything on the board and rush them targeting their Ravergers with everything you can muster as they can be a pain. If you run into the rare DE player that perfers and equips NightShields, you will have to bet within 18" of their flying circus. DSing Alphas strike and coralling your opponent becomes more necessary here. I play Mechdar as well. The biggest concern will be Fire Dragons, as you will be looking at at least 5 BS4 meltas from each unit, expect multiple units. Also focused Prism Cannons can be painful, but can be hugely minimized proper unit spacing. Other than that, Paladins will fair well enough so long as you can corner them getting yourself inside of 24", as Eldar excel at S6 shooting, something that isn't very scary against Paladins as we are incredibly resilient to small arms fire. Drop pods aren't too difficult to deal with. My good friend routinely drops two Ven Dreads with MMs on my DriagoWing and I've done well enough against them. Though, they will likely devastate any Paladin unit they get into contact with. Might of Titan, DKs, or dedicated shooting is required as you cannot rely on Hammers to take out Ven Dreads. I have get to face too many combimeltas, no help here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 BTW, Nurglez: here is your proof. <3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I'm not sure I'd take a Draigo wing to a tournament, at least not yet. Everybody's going to bring either three vindicators or three Devastator teams with 4 MMs a piece, which will ruin your day. Given that GC08 was able to mop them up with his trust Scout list, I'm not thinking they're up to at least my own local meta for tournies. If you got to the end of the game and had one model in each combat squad still alive...how many of those other models did you lose to 1s that you happened to roll versus small arms fire? I would pay to get a 50% shot at undoing that 1, personally. You rarely EVER lose paladins to small arms fire, but will lose them in droves against S8+ AP2- weaponry. 3 Devastator Teams with 4 MMs??? Really? That's... Just... Silly. Vindicators are rather Scary, I know my friend will bring two Vindicators and a GodHammer for his Heavies as well as Drop 2 MM Ven Dreads. It tough, but once you weather the first turn against SM playsers running configurations like this your DKs and Psycannons are more than enough to silence their big guns. Then its down hill fast for them. I'm taking my DriagoWing on Saturday to Ard Boyz... It's played well enough so far that people were considering building lists solely bent on countering me! Should be fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Just silly, is it? It's twelve shots a turn at 24" (which is the engagement range of Draigo and Friends), three of which are BS 5. Expect 2-3 to hit with each volley, and that's a 5+ save two of your boys are counting on. It won't be pretty. Vindicators are easier to deal with, as even a slightly lucky shot will prevent them from shooting. You can hit a Dev squad hard and they will still have most of their MMs up to shoot at you next turn. Don't forget that BA Devs will likely have FNP themselves as well as a chance of being Fearless. Looking forward to your bat reps. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 You rarely EVER lose paladins to small arms fire, but will lose them in droves against S8+ AP2- weaponry. yeah, thade!!! you should know better than to listen to me, im a big fat liar :) just so everyone is aware Paladins are twice as resilient to small arms fire as GKTDAs for only a 37.5% increase in cost. A 5 man paladin unit can take the small arms fire required to eliminate a TDA unit and still function at full capacity. Is a blatant exaggeration wrapped in "mathhammer" if your taking one wound/saving throw at a time, this much is true.. however in the "bucket of dice approach" each model usually takes a couple of saves each, its usually the case that you will lose one or two paladins before each of the others even gets a wound.. its the luck of the draw.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Mathhammer is ever the foe of players, everywhere. No matter how much it says it wants to be your friend, tell it to know its place! Seven un-upgraded tac marines rapid-fire for 14 shots, hit with 2/3 of them (BS 4) wound on 2/3 of their hits (S4 v T4) will do like four to six wounds (experience tells me to count on three to four unless my dice are hot). As for the sergeant and the two other marines? Well, this is a severely meta'd tournament, so you can count on them having a combi-melta, meltagun, and multimelta. Count on at least two of them hitting and the fact that six other wounds are not enough for wound allocation games: you can't stack them on Draigo. One of your paladins has to make a 5++. How are you feeling? Not to mention that every six 2+ saves you take, you're statistically going to roll a single 1, right? So, every full volumn of tac fire you take will cost you a paladin and a wound, on average. How many tac squads do you expect your opponent to hit you with? Probably all of them, right? Since you have Draigo and Paladins and not much else...compared to his massive number of marines. This forgets two other units that are pretty typical and will ruin your day with their math-hammer powerz. A sternguard bristling with combi-meltas (welcome to four to six melta wounds to deal with) or worse: Hammernators. They are the most typical unit in a tournie marine list. You're going first, sure, but they are cheaper and still get 3++ saves. If they charge you, it will go very very very badly for you. Even with Sanctuary and Psycannons a seasoned Ultra or BA player will be able to get that LR to you and dump those guys in your face. And who forgets good ol' Vulkan? Twin-linked melta guns? Go ahead and double the number of wounds for that trio of Devastator units. Silly, eh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 I've had games go both ways, where I roll a bunch of 1's for a few guys and they go down, but the extra wound on each model really helps. It also helps that I am generally pretty good at wound allocation abuse, as I used to use it on my logan wing (even though they only have 1 wound, I still made each one unique), and I have over 50 games with them and draigo wing combined. I perfectly understand the desire for feel no pain, I would love it on my paladins. However, the 75 points I would spend on it are much needed in other places, and though I ordered some torso's and legs to go with the left over arms, I'm still yet to put an apothecary together yet... I'm rather looking forward to going to return of Kthulu, assuming england is still standing after all these riots... I may get totally beaten, I may not, but I will try my hardest to have fun, and of course win :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I'm rather looking forward to going to return of Kthulu, assuming england is still standing after all these riots... I may get totally beaten, I may not, but I will try my hardest to have fun, and of course win :) look forward to seeing you there, should be safe out here in the boonies.. i hope you (and all londoners) get through this mayhem ok Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/15/#findComment-2841935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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