thade Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 At 5-strong, bolterfire will overwhelm them, stack on models, and you'll lose them quicker than if you have ten models and the ability to not allocate to models that already have a wound on them. That's my only reservation there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2868642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 At 5-strong, bolterfire will overwhelm them, stack on models, and you'll lose them quicker than if you have ten models and the ability to not allocate to models that already have a wound on them. That's my only reservation there. With the benefit of being half the cost! 5 paladins are still as resilient as 10 terminators to small arms fire for just about 2/3 the cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2868653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 At 5-strong, bolterfire will overwhelm them, stack on models, and you'll lose them quicker than if you have ten models and the ability to not allocate to models that already have a wound on them. That's my only reservation there. With the benefit of being half the cost! 5 paladins are still as resilient as 10 terminators to small arms fire for just about 2/3 the cost. thats not quite true though is it, 5 melta shots can kill 5 paladins, but can only kill a maximum of 5 terminators Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2868683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Johnson the 3rd jr Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Forgot to mention my DK / Dread combo actually only comes in at 1410 pts. So one more Paladin could be added, along with some other upgrades. Or an Inquisitor in TDA with a Psycannon even.... Anyway, it was just a thought. I know lists usually field one or the other. A few Paladins are lost to make room for both DKs and Dreads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2868684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 At 5-strong, bolterfire will overwhelm them, stack on models, and you'll lose them quicker than if you have ten models and the ability to not allocate to models that already have a wound on them. That's my only reservation there. With the benefit of being half the cost! 5 paladins are still as resilient as 10 terminators to small arms fire for just about 2/3 the cost. thats not quite true though is it, 5 melta shots can kill 5 paladins, but can only kill a maximum of 5 terminators No, it is exactly true, as I specified "small arms fire". Unless meltas have now entered that category... Forgot to mention my DK / Dread combo actually only comes in at 1410 pts. So one more Paladin could be added, along with some other upgrades. Or an Inquisitor in TDA with a Psycannon even.... Anyway, it was just a thought. I know lists usually field one or the other. A few Paladins are lost to make room for both DKs and Dreads. I like the list idea. I'd use the extra points to upgrade one of the Dreads to a Venerable while spending the rest on MCing your psycannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2868687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhrovii Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Hmmm... Well if I have a Draigo/Libby/ten-pally deathstar, maybe I should include 10 strikes in a LR and a VenDread. I'll sit on objectives, they seem pretty resilient. IDK, I'm new to gaming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2868703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 I use draigo, 10 paladins, 5 paladins and a teleporting dk at 1500 points. Paladins can work as 5 man squads, they are less resilient then 10 man that is true, but also they are less of a threat, and also a more tempting target some times, which you can use to "bait" certain opponents. Wound's do wrap around quicker, but nothing says "deathstar" like draigo and 10 paladin friends :( Draigo and 15 paladins, including 6 psycannons comes in around 1220 points. leaving a fair amount for other toys. Strikes/interceptors could be good due to warp quake, and a libby is useful because of all the buffs he can bring, while psyrifles provide long range anti tank fire and DK's provide MC's :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2868733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Deciding between two lists at the moment and can't choose between them at 1500, looking for some opinions from you guys. List 1 Draigo Coteaz 10 paladins, 1 banner, 4 x MC Psycannon, 5 halberds, 2 Swords, 2 Hammers. 3x henchmen Razorback, dozerblades, psybolt Venerbale Psyfleman dread Venerbale Psyfleman dread List 2 Draigo Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, psychotroke and rad grenades, Psychic communion, power armour, force weapon, plasma psyphon, 3x servo skulls. 10 paladins, 1 banner, 4 x MC Psycannon, 5 halberds, 2 Swords, 2 Hammers. 1x paladin with a hammer Venerbale Psyfleman dread Venerbale Psyfleman dread List 1 gives me sanctuary, dark ex, coteazs steal initiative ability, an extra hammer hands, deep strike defence razorback scoring unit reasonable at anti light mech. List 2 gives me rad and psychotroke grenades, plasma defence, 3x skulls to use with 2 x psychic communion (instead of 1) to deep strike if necessry, more i4 str 3-5 power weapons attacks and a paladin who can hold objectives be brought down late with communion using skulls and easily hide. Both lists can take objectives with ease. Both are hard to kill and get kill points from as well. Both have good shooting. I can't decide which list is the bette of the two. My intial thought is the list with coteaz, however grenades and skulls are amazing utilities and some armies can swamp paladins and beat them in cc if done correctly, grneades help. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 but the units which can swamp and kill paladins will generally suffer from sanctuary too wont they? I have a similar issue, for 1750 points I was thinking of losing my second dk and taking coteaz and a regular psyrifle dread... My main issue with your lists, is that both secondary troop choices are, rather weak or puny. I have considered making a similar list but something holds me back, yes you can combat squad, but I cant imagine playing without at least 15 paladins on the field, lets me put down 3x5 paladins with 2 psycannons in each, or keep one at 10 for the death star flavour ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 but the units which can swamp and kill paladins will generally suffer from sanctuary too wont they? I have a similar issue, for 1750 points I was thinking of losing my second dk and taking coteaz and a regular psyrifle dread... My main issue with your lists, is that both secondary troop choices are, rather weak or puny. I have considered making a similar list but something holds me back, yes you can combat squad, but I cant imagine playing without at least 15 paladins on the field, lets me put down 3x5 paladins with 2 psycannons in each, or keep one at 10 for the death star flavour ^_^ Scoring is not a problem, if you place your objectives properly it should never be an issue, for a paladin list not to mention that on average I will have 2 scoring venerable dreads which are just stupidly hard to kill and if you try you are just diverting fire from the paladins. Also both 'weak' scoring units are used in objective missions late game. With psychic communion cast twice the paladin shouldn't come down untill they ahve the paladins right in their face. in the other list you can just reserve the razorback bring it on late and stay at the back corner of the board untill needed. A razorback in the corner of a board is actually quite hard to kill when you need your anti tank weapons to kill paldins and ven dreads. Yes hoards are blunted somewhat by sanctuary however all that really does is kill a couple of models and lets a few swords strike before the enemy not as big a deal as you would imagine. Sanctuary actually works better with more elite units without grenades such as fiends, warriors, blood crushers, incubi. Units that have high innitiative and low model count, it causes them to get wiped before they attack. The way I killed a paladin deathstar list with draigo was with my blood angels. I use Meph a lib dread and 2 units of assault marine with a hidden fist. meph killed 3 the lib dread killed 2 and each power fist killed one, thats 7 of 10. so i won combat and they just ran. I made sure halbards had to attack the dread and couldn't hurt it and that no hammer could attack meph so he was very hard to wound. Grenades would help a lot against these kinds of assaults. If you took coteaz and a ven dread, your list would start looking a lot like my 1750. But I'm guessing you prefer the first list? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Aye, I think the first list is better (though both have OP stuff, either sanctuary or grenades ^_^ ). I do still consider adding a grenade dispensing tech marine (he almost has terminator armour...), though an Inq is better I'd guess. I did sorta forget about scoring dread's, but I only ever plan for 1 extra scoring unit, As I know that when you need it the most you shall roll a 1, and I fear games with 5 objectives :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 sanctuary is a big crock, anyone say cheddar? as for brain mines and pyscotrope grenades, i think someone was smoking the sticky green when they wrote those rules Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 sanctuary is a big crock, anyone say cheddar?as for brain mines and pyscotrope grenades, i think someone was smoking the sticky green when they wrote those rules Someone's been on the wrong side of these things... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 sanctuary is a big crock, anyone say cheddar?as for brain mines and pyscotrope grenades, i think someone was smoking the sticky green when they wrote those rules Someones been on the wrong side of these things... :) yup, and ive seen alot of competaivte lists and armies in my time, and i will quite asily say these things are the most broken things in 40k by far.. paladins could be manageable if it were just thier statlines to beat, but these things make them impossible to kill.. i had a deamon prince charge a small unit of pallies sans halberds (died to wound allocation), most were carrying wounds so i figured DP would kill them, one psychic test later and im hitting at I1 (going into cover apparently) and i die before i hit, then a large unit of plague marines and lord with daemon weapon charge a unit of pallies, only to have 3 die to dangerous terrain and my lord who i cleverly locked with an I4 pally got hit with the brain mines and i couldnt attack at all. bascially these things means all close combat tactics/strategies are defunct when fighting GK, and its not like you can outlive these things, with high inititaive stackable strength upgrades, and force weapons, paladins kill all before them. so if close combat units cannot be used, that means only shooty armies can effectively counter GK paladins... but hang on what does that mean for balanced armies?? oh yeah, it means only armies that cater for draigowing can be effective against them.. leefblower lists and the like. there goes balanced lists in 40k.. edit: sorry to moan, but when something bothers me this much i have to vocalise it, the GK dex is a good one, but some aspects are unbalanced Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 so if close combat units cannot be used, that means only shooty armies can effectively counter GK paladins... but hang on what does that mean for balanced armies?? oh yeah, it means only armies that cater for draigowing can be effective against them.. leefblower lists and the like.there goes balanced lists in 40k.. I share your concerns (rage!) regarding some of the nonsense in the GK dex. However, just some alternative thoughts here. (Also gotta say, that i'm not poo-pooing the Palli build. I stand 100% by my sig. I'm just offering thoughts on the the statement that "there goes balanced lists in 40k" ) Firstly, tournament play has always contained aspects likened to a gigantic rock/paper/scissors match. Some people go for balance and try to take elements of everything (thats how I play - and consequently struggle against draigowing!!!!) and some people go themed towards their rock, paper or scissors lists. In a tournament, if that list comes up against its nemesis, all things being equal, its likely to lose. So, yes, balanced lists may struggle, but are you going to theme or stop/redesign your balanced list on account of the mere possibility out of hundreds of players of coming up against that list? Seems odd. No one list can beat every single list without question(given all things being equal) - the game doesnt work that way. As a result, there will always be a list your list loses to. That being said, i do understand that in the rock/paper/scissors game, the draigowing (/GK tricks list) is a rock that makes a whooooole lot of lists look like scissors, and a precious few look like paper. But, you could just as easily go to a tournament, and not hit a nemesis list all the way through, while the Pally list hits it nemesis early on. Secondly, if you're not talking about tournament play then surely there is some player agreement, some consent to playing together in the first place and knowing what the enemy has. Draigowing is a power build, and I mean that as no pejorative. Its a list that is very, very tough to beat without the proper tools, and if you're playing that in pick up games with your buddies and you know you don't have those tools, then I dont envisage that as being particularly fun for you. Some people frown upon the concept of "theme to beat". I ask "why" when certain builds are themed to win? One could simply argue that Draigowing is "themed to beat most things"... So, if one's friend keeps bringing the Pallies, then in pick up games, adjust to his list and bring more things that can deal with them and other things. Thats where the true balance comes in and thats essentially the point of my thoughts.. In a tourney, balance is not about what can beat everything in a vacuum of one game vs one game, but what can be reasonably expected to win against the majority of lists over X amount of games. In casual play, balance is the thing you do to ensure you both have a good time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 I agree with great crusade, vs certain builds Draigo wing pwns all, or something :) Sanctuary is over powered vs any army that wants to assault you, especially those without assault grenades. And combined with the force weapons and halberds makes most nid builds just cry. I haven't even tried out the grenades yet, and so far I've done pretty well without wven using a libby in most of my games... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 And in reply to morticon, I started playing draigo wing before I realised how powerful it is. I love small elite forces, and Draigo wing fit the bill, it was also very cheap to buy compared to other armies. After using it I have realised how powerful it is, but I enjoy using it, I just hate that I should have to Gimp my list in order for my friends to have a chance against it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 im all for playing against draigwing, the combo of 2W termies with force weapons and some halberds is an interesting challenge but as i said previous, they went overboard with certain 'extras'. interestingly nurglez tourney army had none of the cheesball extras (bar chcuk norris draigo himself) and still won the recent tournament.. my feelings on that was that he won through skill as much as list writing, the other chap who lost to nurglez is more of a bandwagon player, he has a list for every army suited to competative play but IMO does play eough with each army to learn the nuances. i guess my point is, you dont need to use the overpowered stuff to win games, but too many people will use them, becuase its the 'easiest' options.. kind of like vulkan and hammernators *spits on floor* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Well, Some people may consider 15 paladins, draigo and 2 teleporting DK's cheesy :) I won vs that other draigo wing due to the fact that he did nothing with his draigo, apart from shoot some storm bolter shots. He should have used him more aggressively in my opinion, as paying 275 points for a bs6 storm bolter is a bit of a waste :D Believe me, I was originally aiming to add a pimped out libby instead of the second DK, but Thade as well as other people convinced me that 2 DK's, or a dk and a ven/normal psyrifle dread would be a better combination. Also I was lucky with who I played against during Kthulu, Had I played vs the imperial guard player (with that plasma tank) or vs some of the other marine lists (plasma heavy or combi melta sternguard in drop pod) it might have gone very differently. And finally, I used my 1500 point list, with the second DK and a few more MC weps to take full advantage of wound allocation shenanigans. Due to playing with my list quite a few times (25 games now), I am pretty good at assigning wounds through my units, which is half the battle to playing well with Draigo wing :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 grenades and sanctuary are sone of the main reasons I dont have draigo and instead have coteaz and a grenade spewing GM. I agree with Greatcrusade on all accounts except for brain mines being over powered, that part just isn't true. Psychtrokes are the most horrible item of wargear in that book, even worse than sanctuary. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Johnson the 3rd jr Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I won vs that other draigo wing due to the fact that he did nothing with his draigo, apart from shoot some storm bolter shots. What the? All this time I thought Draigo did not have a storm bolter. Dur.... :D Next time I should read his entry more closely. Still, I am better than the guy I played who didn't realize Draigo's sword has the Daemonbane rule.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2869824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebG Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I just hate that I should have to Gimp my list in order for my friends to have a chance against it. I have most of the models to tailor my list more if I know you're bringing these guys but the whole point of my army is a rough 'theme' I trying to stick to. I also want a decent all-comers list which I think I'm most way to having (I think my tactics need to improve more than my list does). I don't want you to gimp your list, but it is frustrating having an army (jump pack BA with a little support for those not in the know) that is always going to struggle against your boys. I wouldn't say change it though. I'm more interested in you sticking with your current list and seeing how differently my fledgling mixed GK list will work. (Or bring it to the next Apoc game and watch the Imperial Guard land that Vortex template thing on your head! As for what's been said above by GC08 I won't have an 'OP rant' but, just so you know, you aren't alone in your losses to Sanctuary - my super expensive lightning claw/storm shield Honour Guard along with some Death Company, a Recluisarch and a Libby charged his 5 Paladins, Draigo and Libby and died to a man in one round. 3 of the 5 HG went to terrain tests and no one else lived long enough to hit anything. Sad, sad times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2870093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 I lost 2 pallies to sanctuary in game 3 (I think I forgot to take my invulnerable saves for it, but it was the last turn so whoops). Well, I swapped the space wolf battle force for a dark eldar one, gonna give them a try and see how they do (my first non 3+ or 2+ save force! what do you mean i need to use cover?). I will try and get some practice games in with draigo wing against "tailored" lists, to prepare me for throne of skulls :sweat: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2870139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 As for what's been said above by GC08 I won't have an 'OP rant' but, just so you know, you aren't alone in your losses to Sanctuary - my super expensive lightning claw/storm shield Honour Guard along with some Death Company, a Recluisarch and a Libby charged his 5 Paladins, Draigo and Libby and died to a man in one round. 3 of the 5 HG went to terrain tests and no one else lived long enough to hit anything. Sad, sad times. I lost 2 pallies to sanctuary in game 3 (I think I forgot to take my invulnerable saves for it, but it was the last turn so whoops). Try sending your best shiny genestealers through it, and they haven't even got grenades for when they're through it! Well, I swapped the space wolf battle force for a dark eldar one, gonna give them a try and see how they do (my first non 3+ or 2+ save force! what do you mean i need to use cover?). I will try and get some practice games in with draigo wing against "tailored" lists, to prepare me for throne of skulls :sweat: Ready to be a sparring partner or punchbag anytime mate! Skavenids, plasma marines or plasma Leman Russ & Manticore Guard, at your preference! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2870154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 aye, you can be the gloves, I'll be the punching bag :sweat: imperial guard worry me quite a bit, especially their plasma tank (I wonder why...). and podding marines with melta/plasma worry me too. Dark eldar/eldar I haven't played much at all, but I'm sure those can wait until the tourny :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229135-just-played-my-46th-draigo-wing-game/page/24/#findComment-2870159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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