BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 It's okay to use units that are really good, just like Paladins. If you stopped taking all the good stuff then maybe it's time to play nids or something. I don't mean that in an offensive way - it is just irritating at times to see people making excuses about why they play what they do. G :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 Well, I consider psyrifle dread's the answer to paladin's long range problem, like I consider oblitorators the answer to chaos's anti tank problem. Most cost effective way of doing it. However, I am all ready using 1 DK, so for me, a second DK will improve my DK effectiveness more then adding a lone psyrifle dread. Considering I am all ready using a considered "cheesy" army, I quite like winning without the toys I consider "cheesy". I also started pallies before "they were overpowered". I really didn't think they would be as powerful as they are. I own 1 psyrifle dread, and that is enough for me. At 2000 points I will add the psyrifle dread and libby, and lose a personal teleporter on my DK without the GS, but up until then, I am not using either a psyrifle dread or a libby, as my friends have enough trouble beating me as it is. Also, someone made a good point, that a lone vehicle will attract all the anti tank fire. Which is good. However, 1 lucky shot and its gone, unlike a DK which will generally take at least 4 anti tank shots before it goes. As my army spams wounds in a low model count force. I feel that continuing the spam is a better choice. Yes my force lack's long ranged anti tank, and also psychic defence. This is a design trait of my list. Dread's cant move up to 30 inches in 1 turn, and they will do pretty much nothing to a scout unit on an objective in cover that has gone to ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 It's okay to use units that are really good, just like Paladins. If you stopped taking all the good stuff then maybe it's time to play nids or something. I don't mean that in an offensive way - it is just irritating at times to see people making excuses about why they play what they do. +++ HERETICAL TEXT REMOVED BY ORDER OF THE INQUISITION +++ in all seriousness, everybody has a different attitude to the game, the only attitude that dosnt belong IMO is the WAAC one, if a player has nothing else going fro them perhpas its time to stop playing all together? my attitude is very similar to nurglez, its why i dont use oblits or 2xDP for chaos, its why i dont touch hammernators for C:SM, its boring and predictable, when i turn up to a table i want my opponent to remember me, if im running the same list as everyone else its boring and sucks half the fun from the game.. like i said theres more to the game than your win loss record (tournaments are the caveat to this i guess) as it goes i think there are are some good lists in the GK arsenal that dont use many of the so called overpowered elements, it takes a brave, selfless and interesting person to explore non netlist builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 It's okay to use units that are really good, just like Paladins. If you stopped taking all the good stuff then maybe it's time to play nids or something. I don't mean that in an offensive way - it is just irritating at times to see people making excuses about why they play what they do. G ;) I agree, sort of. Nothing at all to stop you using units that are good. It is a game about winning, and making it fun to win. If you aren't trying, by deliberately taking the worst possible units with no intent on winning, then it doesn't make it fair on your opponent. That said, you don't have to WAAC, as that is also not fair on your opponent. Not everyone is a tournament player, and I feel that this thread has almost become tournament play vs casual play, and all those recent threads involving that have been closed, so please everyone behave yourselves :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I agree, sort of. Nothing at all to stop you using units that are good. It is a game about winning, and making it fun to win. If you aren't trying, by deliberately taking the worst possible units with no intent on winning, then it doesn't make it fair on your opponent. ah but you dont need to best units to play with a competative mindset, i always try to win my games, becuase its disrespectful to your opponents if you dont.. but i stand by my opinions on netlists and metagaming etc.. theres more to the game than how quickly you can table your opponents.. again the caveat to this is tournament play, but forthe majority of the time your playing at your LGS and with mates, tabling them every time isnt fun or fair to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Sorry to wind the thread back, I've been busy this weekend (cursed work!) I like vindicators and own 2, while Commander Sasha has 1 too, so 3 vindicators could be an interesting challenge. Single lascannon shots aren't as much of a threat, but they are nasty. I'm ready to give that list a try! I will, beat you, oh yes I will, eventually! This was my first game using Marines for 2 years, and until I met Nurglez, I had had few adult opponents, so it's only whilst I've been playing 'Nids that my game has improved to the point of being a worthwhile challenge! I need some more games with my Marines, to make the most of them. (I was planning to start a new army, but the family finances disallow it, and having just realised how much Dark Angel stuff my son still has on the sprue, I am going to rebuild Sasha's mob, with more skirts!) It's okay to use units that are really good, just like Paladins. If you stopped taking all the good stuff then maybe it's time to play nids or something. I don't mean that in an offensive way - it is just irritating at times to see people making excuses about why they play what they do. You're right. +++ HERETICAL TEXT REMOVED BY ORDER OF THE INQUISITION +++ ...I feel that this thread has almost become tournament play vs casual play, and all those recent threads involving that have been closed, so please everyone behave yourselves :P You're rightest! I also started pallies before "they were overpowered". I really didn't think they would be as powerful as they are. It's true, I'll witness that. After all, he ran Loganwing before Draigowing came out! I own 1 psyrifle dread, and that is enough for me. At 2000 points I will add the psyrifle dread and libby, and lose a personal teleporter on my DK without the GS, but up until then, I am not using either a psyrifle dread or a libby, as my friends have enough trouble beating me as it is. This is why someone can field a "cheesy" army, and yet not be a WAAC player. Consideration for fluff, and consideration for the other player. Remember the fourth edition "most important rule"? "To have fun". This should be enforced in tournaments! Nurglez, I am always happy to take on your Draigowing, even if it can often lead to demoralising defeat! I will beat you, oh yes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon_77 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I have used both psyfle and DK's and personally I prefer the mobility/options that DK afford. It is an interesting take that Psyfles are considered better solely based on their range and firepower abilities, as to me it seems one just plunks them down in the field and lets them take care of things for you, as you march Draigo and co. towards objectives/targets. While this is a very effective tactic, I don't really like it because it is a one trick pony, and if countered you are pretty much done. I learned this the hard way against my own SM force a friend of mine borrowed to play against me while I was working out the bugs with what was to become draigowing according to the internet ( I too was playing it before I realized how powerful it was) He dropped two drop pods BEHIND my psyfles with his own CC/Melta dreads and took them out in one turn of shooting and one assault a turn later. Unfortunatly when he did that I was powerless to stop the rest of draigowing getting shot to hell with whirlwinds and melta from rhinos, as there were just too many targets to handle with psycannons. So, after several games with them, I have realized I'd rather have a little more mobility/flexibility that DK can get me. Draigo pally deathstar is already a unit that puts a lot of eggs in a basket, and then placing what little eggs one has left into psyfles (that don't score, or move quickly, or usually contest) is very difficult for me to swallow, simply too much can go horribly horribly wrong if I lose them. I also find diversity to be a good thing in my lists..draigo already has that move slowly moving/excellent shooting for me covered, so I like to use DK's and Stormravens speed to offset draigos weaknesses, rather than field a unit in the psyfle that essentially does the exact same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 You can use the Grand Strategy to make NDK or psyflemen scoring units. I used an NDK (PT & HI) in my Ard Boyz matches this year... He was really good at getting close to hard to reach enemy units and flaming them but often he was shot down the following turn after he arrived. He did really good in melee the few games he survived past the turn he arrived which was fun. Like I said one of the reasons I think the psyflemen are more popular is you can take basically two for the cost of one NDK. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 There is now a post on 3++, regarding how to beat Draigo wing. Find it here. Rather interesting reading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Here is one I wrote published last night on my blog: http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2011/10/n...ersus-grey.html It's not as long but I think it gets the point across well enough. I did pretty good against GK this weekend using Nidz of all armies. :) G :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 That 3++ article was frickin hilarious. Was he really serious? I don't think he's ever played against a competent DriagoWing player or list before. Here is a terrible list, now we'll assume the guy playing it is an utter moron. Here is how you beat it.... Too easy.... In KP missions, don't sweat it, just pick off his easy KPs, which are so abundant... all while protecting your own.... Umm... I have 9 KPs in 2.5k, my other list has 7... You have more Dedicated Transports than that....good luck DriagoWing has no scoring units, just hold your objectives while taking his... Umm I have between 5-7 scoring units....more than you....did I mention that if I get all 7 its ~80% of my army can hold an objective.... Wow, just wow I' will probably have more scoring units than you! Solodins, our secret weapon.... News to most of us.... If you happen to face a good player with a good list, just use the same tactics I've specified.... of which there a couple of vague references and ideas that assume a bad player and a bad list... now hope for some luck... Ik don't even know what to say about this, its sad... DriagoWing actually sucks and won't win tournaments cause its a "Rock"... Ok, scans results of recent tournaments... chuckles.... Thank you for the link, I needed a bit of humor in my day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 We have more than a few players on here who have had success with DW (esp the OP of this thread) and they've been doing well in tournies recently. They're decent but they're also a fad right now...so I'm not surprised you may have encountered a few players using the list as if it's a magic click-and-win solution. The article really only talks about the things we've talked about here in this thread (and on other threads on B&C): DW are a low unit-count, low model-count army, which means they have the weaknesses we have highlighted here over our weaks of talking. If any unit (esp. the Death Star) breaks to a morale check, that could cost the DW-player the game; they can't cover that much ground due to their low numbers and restricted mobility; they can't effectively engage many enemy units at range for those reasons as well. Perhaps he should cite us. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 The article wasn't that bad. It lacked depth and detail but some of the weaknesses it outlined are true, thescoring isn't one of them. Leadership and effecting multiple unit sper turn are their main weaknesses. These are two weakness I try to cover by using coteaz, henchmen and a strike squad. I think stock draigowing will ahve major problems with MSU based armies as soon as people learn how to combat it. It really is just the nob bikers of today. people will learn to get around it. This will not make them bad I think we will just see draigowing armies shifting towards using more support units in future. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Although, as soon as you bring non terminator armour into the list, you give enemies a target for their ap 3 weapons... Right, while at my girlfriends watching tv, I had a thought about a different list to my usual 1750 points... usual list: Draigo, 15 pallies (6 psycannons, full wound allocation shenanigans) DK with PT, HI and GS, DK with PT and HI random idea: Draigo, 10 pallies (4 psycannons, full wound allocation). 2 lone paladins, the 2 dk's, and either. venerable psyrifle dread or psyrifle dread, inquisitor with terminator armour, psycannon + servo skulls Out of the options, I'd be leaning towards the dread and inquisitor :lol: So I'd be losing 2 psycannons and gaining a few more kill points, but I'd also have longer range and maybe some servo skulls plus the option of 4 scoring units without using Grand Strategy. Any thoughts or Idea's? 8-9 KP's seems a bit fairer then 5-6, and while I'm not sold on solodins, they do seem to have their uses if used properly (my 5 man squad generally isn't that durable due to no Draigo to attach to it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 One thing that the Inquisitor gives you access to is a second Psychic Communion caster (reasonably cheap upgrade)...so between him (or her) and Draigo all of your reserves can land on Turn 2 with very, very high odds (on a 2+ with a 2-stack of P.C.). You have played reserve/DS games with your servo skulls/NDK in the past, no? This would up that game for you. It's very similar to the list I am in the midst of building: but the Communion is as much to hold my Callidus assassin out as it is to bring her in early. Communion's not perfect at delaying reserves, but it's better than a random die roll. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 aye, though I'd be cutting it close with the points, if I gave the inquisitor a psychic power. Its allready close as it is giving him a few servo skulls :D I shall be considering this list, though unlikely I'll have the models ready in time for ToS. I've been wanting to try out solodins for awhile, they seem like they could be ok. And I can add in the psyrifle dread that everyone loves (apart from your opponent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Drop Terminator armor. :D Do you ever, ever DS your Deathstar? Attach him to it and slog him out there with those bamfs. He has to be on the table for Communion anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 But, but, he needs to be in terminator armour, I wont be fielding anything that isn't in terminator armour :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 But, but, he needs to be in terminator armour, I wont be fielding anything that isn't in terminator armour :D haha I can 1000% get behind that. I am modeling a sister in terminator armor. <3 (Actually borrowing a jeweler's saw tomorrow night to saw the pewter sconce off of an Inquisitor backpack for my Canoness in TDA.) Where else to shave points? NDK loadouts...do both of your NDKs have swords? Perhaps one of them can go barehanded (which is still nasty, if not a Land Raider killer)? Dare I say it...some minor shifting of points through your wound-allocated Deathstar may do the trick while still keeping each of them unique? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 not enough for a psychic power. And I value servo skulls over the psychic power (9 points vs 30). I fully intend to play test this, got a cool conversion idea for my inquisitor. This guy toting a mini gun :D http://www.boostep.com/thumbnails/images/rip_355635.jpg.thumb_popupprod_info_500x428_a0d2dee20c14a5b85f16768d02a66577.jpg http://www.maxmini.eu/store/images/minigun.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon_77 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Dont forget that your inquisitor gives you access to Psycotroke and Rad Grenades if you make him Xenos.. which you list has no prior units with them... they are truly devastating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Aye, however I am staying away from those grenades for the time being, and due to my lack of interest with anything that cant come in terminator armour :) The model I linked to above is also going to be my coteaz stand in, if I ever use him. Him and a tech marine would be the only non terminator armoured units I'd want to take... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Where did that mini of the Inquisitor come from ? Very nice ! G :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I assume it's from maxmini.eu per the image label? :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 The model is from hel dorado. The gun is from maxmini :P the model is actually quite tall. About as tall as a terminator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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