isilvra Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Any chance it might have made a diffrence to how things turned out? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I'm tempted to make a joke about Fulgrim here. . . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2813854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Invader Zim didn't have a mother, he turned out fine. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2813858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Undoubtably. Psychological studies prove children develop better when they have a mother (and father) figure. I see no reason why this shouldn't apply to primarchs as well :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2813901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 There would have been no difference. Gender would be different obviously but the character of the Emperor and primarchs would have most likely turned out the same. And no, i'm not going to accept some claim about how some small change like this would make everything turn out right and the Imperium would be made a utopia. For all we know it could have been worse, but most likely things would be exactly the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2813924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 There would have been no difference. Gender would be different obviously but the character of the Emperor and primarchs would have most likely turned out the same. And no, i'm not going to accept some claim about how some small change like this would make everything turn out right and the Imperium would be made a utopia. For all we know it could have been worse, but most likely things would be exactly the same. Having a mother is one of the most major changes that you could make to the primarchs lives ;) Literally, almost everything that happened would somehow be different, just as different as the Dornian Heresy was (though I suspect the Chaos Gods would cause a similar event to the Horus Heresy). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2813935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 You all seem to be forgettig that the Primarchs were spirited away by chaos. They would not have met her until YEARS after they had grown to adulthood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2813950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafen_2 Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Well that depends on when they have the mothers. If you mean before they were sent out, then no. If they were adopted then I actually still say no. They grew up based on their surroundings and what was happening. Having a mother watching them wouldn't really change that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2813952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Having or not having parents has the most impact only during the "formative" years of development. All of the Primarchs were grown men when they met their "father". Having an absentee mother wouldn't have affected their development. In later years she would have had to be pretty special in order to compete with "Hi, I'm your Dad. Yeah I lost you decades ago but now I'm back...Hey, let's go conquer stuff!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2813958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 If it hadn't been early, you guys are right, it would have made little impact (thanks Hiro for the reminder). I should have clarified that. However. An adoptive mother figure (as in, look at this random, poor child! I have no idea where you came from (though the capsule may or may not have something to do with it) but I'll take care of you) would affect their judgement immensely. A mother that cared, truly cared, for the child would teach that child how to care in turn, whether intentionally or not. Also, again, if the mother cared, they would try and be there for the child when they could. That sense that someone was there for them would make them less... self-reliant... that's poor wording. Rather, it wouldn't force them to be self-reliant, though I'm sure forces as dominant as the primarchs would undoubtably become 'highly independent' ;) Look at Guillemann (please don't derail this thread with Ultra-hate). He had a father figure from a young age, and he turned out to be a stable, effecient primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2813968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafen_2 Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 What if the mother didn't care? What if they abused the child and thus have him turn to chaos easier? Just a thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sempronius Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 A mother that cared, truly cared, for the child would teach that child how to care in turn, whether intentionally or not. Corax was probably the most compassionate Primarch, and he had no "parents" as it were. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Primarchs are asexual thus there would be no resonance between mother and son. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 A mother that cared, truly cared, for the child would teach that child how to care in turn, whether intentionally or not. Corax was probably the most compassionate Primarch, and he had no "parents" as it were. *cough*Vulkan*cough*! I don't really picture Corax as any more compassionate than normal. Sure, he led a slave revolt to improve the quality of life on his home world, but pretty much every Primarch did that. Vulkan, on the other hand, was known (amongst his own Legion and home planet, at least) as being an all-round awesome guy, who actually cared for the common man, and did everything he could to help them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liliedhe Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 That's generally a weird thing. One would think that with 18 primarchs, landing on 18 different worlds, in 18 different circumstances, at least ONE of them would have been raised by a woman or a couple. But, as far as I know, this wasn't the case. There are father figures, and daddy issues^^, but no mother figures. Well, maybe some of the fathers had wives, but it seems like they are utterly unimportant, if they even existed. I doubt it would have changed anything, though. With those who were the most damaged growing up (Angron, Curze, Lion), ANY figure actually raising them kindly would have made a difference. And with those who were raised by benevolent figures, the figure's gender is not that important. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Having a mother is one of the most major changes that you could make to the primarchs lives :) Literally, almost everything that happened would somehow be different, just as different as the Dornian Heresy was (though I suspect the Chaos Gods would cause a similar event to the Horus Heresy). Ah I see. Sorry, I thought this thread was asking a question of what would have happened if the Emperor had been, well, an Empress. My answer to that would have been little to no difference. But yes, having both parental figures would have changed things considerably. Also please note that Perutrabo was raised by an apparently benevolent figure who did try to raise him correctly, but it was apparently the primarch's own personality which repeatedly stopped him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Having a mother is one of the most major changes that you could make to the primarchs lives :( Literally, almost everything that happened would somehow be different, just as different as the Dornian Heresy was (though I suspect the Chaos Gods would cause a similar event to the Horus Heresy). Ah I see. Sorry, I thought this thread was asking a question of what would have happened if the Emperor had been, well, an Empress. My answer to that would have been little to no difference. But yes, having both parental figures would have changed things considerably. Also please note that Perutrabo was raised by an apparently benevolent figure who did try to raise him correctly, but it was apparently the primarch's own personality which repeatedly stopped him. the God-Empress upon the Golden Throne....sounds sexy :whistling: Speaking on topic, when looking at the major themes running throughout the grim dark universe, we see a great deal of imagery that is essentially borrowed from previous concepts and philosphical dogmas. For instance the Emperor is clearly an interpretation of Nietzsche's Superhuman (ger. Übermensch), the Primarchs are the incarnation of his superior (divine) will. As such the Mother would be an alien element in the equation. Their existence is not truly natural, hence they (some of them) fall prey to unnatural powers. We may be intended to undertand that their existence as gene-wrought superhumans made from the Big E's genetic template is their greatest source of power as well as their greatest weakness. Having a mother would negate this and the entire theme would simply not work....no superhumans, no flaws of perfect beings..no betrayal, no anguish, no heresy and as a result of this no fun for us. my oppinion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Having a mother is one of the most major changes that you could make to the primarchs lives :whistling: Literally, almost everything that happened would somehow be different, just as different as the Dornian Heresy was (though I suspect the Chaos Gods would cause a similar event to the Horus Heresy). Ah I see. Sorry, I thought this thread was asking a question of what would have happened if the Emperor had been, well, an Empress. My answer to that would have been little to no difference. But yes, having both parental figures would have changed things considerably. Also please note that Perutrabo was raised by an apparently benevolent figure who did try to raise him correctly, but it was apparently the primarch's own personality which repeatedly stopped him. Misunderstandings happen ^_^ I do agree that little would change if the Emperor was an Empress then yes, there would be very little difference. The Emperor almost seems asexual, or rather that his gender doesn't really affect him. To be fair, though, an Empress with 20.5 sons who all have their Legions of post-human (males) would be slightly... off :( The note on Perturabo is interesting. Can you provide a source, so I can read the fluff that I'm missing? A mother that cared, truly cared, for the child would teach that child how to care in turn, whether intentionally or not. Corax was probably the most compassionate Primarch, and he had no "parents" as it were. *cough*Vulkan*cough*! I don't really picture Corax as any more compassionate than normal. Sure, he led a slave revolt to improve the quality of life on his home world, but pretty much every Primarch did that. Vulkan, on the other hand, was known (amongst his own Legion and home planet, at least) as being an all-round awesome guy, who actually cared for the common man, and did everything he could to help them. I didn't say that the couldn't have become kind and compassionate without a mother figure, simply that if all the primarchs had one it would be much more widespread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomus Sardauk Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Also please note that Perutrabo was raised by an apparently benevolent figure who did try to raise him correctly, but it was apparently the primarch's own personality which repeatedly stopped him. Benevolent figure? If I recall correctly Peturabo's adopted father Dammekos was known as "The Tyrant of Lochos" and while he may have been good to Peturabo it was clear to even the young Primarch that the Tyrant didn't actually love him as a son and only wanted him as an heir. Peturabo never trusted the Olympians and refused to return any affection from Dammekos. Many saw Peturabo as a cold and brooding child but when considered that he had been thrown onto a world with no idea of his origins or purpose, this is perhaps a little harsh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Why do you assume that none of the Primarch had a mother figure? Because they are not mentioned in the legendary/mythological historical accounts about how the Primarchs became the rulers of their respective worlds? For example, Leman Russ was raised first by tribesmen of Fenris, and was then taken in by King Thengir. It seems likely that king Thengir had a queen, and there would have been women in the tribe. Roboute Guilliman was found by Consul/King Konor on Macragge, and it is reasonable to assume that he had a wife as well. But the accounts usually do not dwell on the social upbringing of the Primarchs, and instead focus very much on early achievements and conquests. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Undoubtably. Psychological studies prove children develop better when they have a mother (and father) figure. I see no reason why this shouldn't apply to primarchs as well ^_^ Statistics show a marked improvement when someone comes from a family unit, even if said unit isn't quite so stable. But that's the real world, I'm not sure it'd matter much in the 40k universe except that with a mother they might have slaughtered species in armour the of varying pastel hues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Why do you assume that none of the Primarch had a mother figure? Because they are not mentioned in the legendary/mythological historical accounts about how the Primarchs became the rulers of their respective worlds? For example, Leman Russ was raised first by tribesmen of Fenris, and was then taken in by King Thengir. It seems likely that king Thengir had a queen, and there would have been women in the tribe. Roboute Guilliman was found by Consul/King Konor on Macragge, and it is reasonable to assume that he had a wife as well. But the accounts usually do not dwell on the social upbringing of the Primarchs, and instead focus very much on early achievements and conquests. You're completely right. That may have been the difference between a lot of the loyalist primarchs and some of the traitor primarchs; Angron, for example, lacked a completely stable mindset, and also lacked a mother figure. Curze, on other hand, was completely stable, but didn't develop social skills and was almost always at odds with his brothers - now that I think of it, the Lion didn't either, and while he had a father figure he didn't have a mother figure. Indeed, that may have been why Guillemann was so successful with dealing with people and caring for the common citizenry, or at least governing them, because he had a mother figure that taught him how otther people saw the world(s). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Corax was probably the most compassionate Primarch, and he had no "parents" as it were. What? I thought Vulkan and Sanguinius had that in the bag. Where does it say Corax is compassionate? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumah Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I'm tempted to make a joke about Fulgrim here. . . You and me both! And just to add my two credits: when you're genetically hardwired - and indeed created with the sole purpose in mind - to perpetrate or facilitate heinous acts of genocide (which is what they do/did however you want to dress it up) a soft, feminine touch isn't going to make a real difference. Maybe they would have killed people/aliens more kindly or with less relish, but kill they would. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Corax was probably the most compassionate Primarch, and he had no "parents" as it were. What? I thought Vulkan and Sanguinius had that in the bag. Where does it say Corax is compassionate? I feel I need to answer this, as it keeps cropping up. The theme of Raven Guard has always been 'for the people', lending them the feel of compassion and kindness. Just look at Shrike's description in the codex. Also, what the primarch did for his Legion after Istvaan is often seen as a desperate act of a father, to the point he appears as one more so than the other loyalist primarchs who survived the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233721-would-the-primarchs-have-been-better-off-with-a-mother/#findComment-2814580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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