Captain Idaho Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I love the Heresy series, I really do. I have very few complaints about it, barring wanting a 3 book series for every Primarch Legion to get a good feel for their role and feelings etc just before and during the Heresy. Impractical of course, but a brother can dream though! Anyway, one thing that is starting to get on my nerves is how every villain has a sob story. They all are tragic, fallen heroes and it's just getting a little, well boring. Every Primarch who turned traitor seems to have a chip on their shoulder and be emotionally dependent on constant reassurance etc. Either that or they are tricked into it. Basically, it's always someone else's fault! Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of scope for fallen heroes. Lorgar and Magnus both had a fall from grace which are suitably well done. Fulgrim too. And Horus. It's just in a universe full of daemons, dark gods and evil monsters and aliens, there is also plenty of room for Primarches to be bad just because they are bad! Perturobo, for example, can easily be a character who is just a power hungry, callous individual and and that genocide he committed on his home planet turns out to not bother him at all. I dunno, I just hate how no-one is ever responsible for their actions in our society, because there is always an excuse, and I don't particularly want to be reminded of it too much when I'm reading a novel to escape the mundane existance of the real world. I want to see a baddy who is bad because he is just a nasty piece of work! Someone who doesn't have an excuse except for being self serving and power hungry. Someone who isn't a pawn, just wants his slice of the pie! What do other people think about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 There are two very bad people who match that very description. The two ^_^ little ^_^ known as Erebus and Kor Phaeron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 So. . . it sounds like you're waiting to see Angron make more appearances. He has no sob story; he got over the deaths of the Eaters of Cities at the end of After De'shea, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Angron could be a interesting character, as long as they don't make him a "WAAAGH, me put Ghazkull to shame with big muscles" character. Make him a lovable son of a ^_^ , which you love to hate. HH is missing out on those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Angron could be a interesting character, as long as they don't make him a "WAAAGH, me put Ghazkull to shame with big muscles" character. Make him a lovable son of a ;) , which you love to hate. HH is missing out on those. I'll say that I've liked the Loyalist World Eaters we've met so far. The captain from Isstvan III. . . .Erlen, I think his name was?. . . that guy was badass. Make Angron a bigger, nastier version of him, and I'm all about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 To be honest Captain Idaho the primarchs were not created perfect, thats the point. The Emperor created each of them to be humanity persionifed, each of them essentially are human. I agree though the series is getting a bit boring, there seems to be a lack of actual malice in many of their Primarchs that turned, although saying that i think many of them turned on the basis that the Emperor lied to them about many things. The major thing i think the Emperor failed to do was actually be a father (as much as he was), guiding and leading as well as teaching (apart from Horus), he basically created the Primarchs, lost them when they were scattered about the place, found them and then gave them a Legion and said "on your way son" and for many of them, that was all the contact they had with him, apart from the occassional meet. To be honest i can see why many of them started to feel resentment towards the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Perturabo will be plain evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Actually, the way I've read most of the origin stories, is that in most cases, The Big E spent lots of time with many of his sons. In fact, the only one I can think of where it is specifically mentioned that he didn't spend any real time with daddy -- or his brothers, for that matter -- was Alpharius. Consider that, say, Ferrus and Fulgrim were both brought to Terra to meet dad at the same time and spent enough time together to grow as close as true brothers should be; that implies lots of time spent hanging around Terra together, probably with most of it spent in the presence of the Emperor. But again, that does kind of fall into the enlightened supposition category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Hopefully, as the iron warriors seem to be the only Chaos legion with any mettle in 40k(i'm sorry, i couldn't resist!). Case Example-Honsou ;) Damn, too late, was responding to Billuriye's post, sorry. Deus, The Emp's threw Angron onto his capital ship after 'porting him outa battle. the stupid little .... (Mad raving about Emps bad parenting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Actually, the way I've read most of the origin stories, is that in most cases, The Big E spent lots of time with many of his sons. In fact, the only one I can think of where it is specifically mentioned that he didn't spend any real time with daddy -- or his brothers, for that matter -- was Alpharius. Consider that, say, Ferrus and Fulgrim were both brought to Terra to meet dad at the same time and spent enough time together to grow as close as true brothers should be; that implies lots of time spent hanging around Terra together, probably with most of it spent in the presence of the Emperor. Some time doesn't mean years though, most of them were found during the Great Crusade and because they were needed on the front line didn't get to spend much time with the Emperor compared to Horus, who was found only a few years after he was "lost". I have to admit though, that is the one thing that annoyed me most about the whole HH series so far, is just how quickly Horus turned his back on the Emperor. Horus was ment to be the favoured son, and the man to lead the armies of the Emperor and probably be the successor, the sheer amount of time Horus was around the Emperor, almost all his life, being taught personally by the Emperor in all things, Horus should have been almost unbreakable, but in the series he folded like a badly cooked souffle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Saying the Emperor wasn't a father to the Primarches so that's the problem is the apologist stuff I was talking about. He wasn't there for Dorn, or Sanguinius or Guilliman etc, yet they didn't turn. The Primarches might be human in their psyche, but they are grown adults with but a single exception when the met the Emperor. They spent 200 years(ish) with him and then fell about in the space of what, 7 years? Less? No, the Emperor's parenting isn't the cause of the fall of any of the Primarches and I wish people would stop repeating it because it is so false it makes me immediately switch off and suspect the person who said it doesn't really fully understand the nature of the Primarches, the Emperor, their histories together or give any credit to the machinations of Chaos. Sorry if that felt like a personal attack to anyone, but it's so frustrating reading criticisms of The Emperor in every thread in the Heresy section. I apologise if I have offended as it wasn't the intent. (am writing from my mobile whilst caring for my 2 year old son so might be just a little intolerant and clumsy right now) Anyway, bring on someone very evil, I'm ready for them. By the way, Erebus and Kor Phaedron are prompted to do what they're doing by their "faith" and while both quite evil, I find them quite annoyingly ever-present, near omnipotent puppet masters who are also fairly flat characters so far so don't particularly want to see them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 While I see your point and agree with much of what you state, you have to remember that HH novels are written according to the protagonists' view and innermost thoughts. And the fact is, most humans who are evil do have a goal, an event horizon, something that justifies their wrongdoings. If not, we get into mental disturbance territory. This is no apology to any act, I share your frustration with everything being relative these days, but 40K is not entirely innacurate in portraying humankind, from a behavioural point of view. So, most novels focus on the 'Why' of each protagonist's actions, and tend to make readers at least understand (not share or agree) the inner workings that led to the traitors'...well, treason. On Kor Phaeron and Erebus, they were probably corrupted, so even they'll have an "excuse" (they have none and I hope they get what's coming to them times 10). That's why, in 40K, bad guys are measured not exactly by their actions, but by their most secluded thoughts. If an imperial citizen (or astartes, or whatever) is too rife with doubt, "Hey, what a good guy in a galaxy full of bastards, I'd totally be like him and question the Emperor's smug view", but then the Big Guy's right and that fellow's SMS spell ruined the chances for a brighter future for humans everywhere. Example: Sevatarion was first portrayed as the pinnacle of 'Just for the kick of it' for a Space Marine (World Eaters are a sterner kind), a psychopath drapped in human skins and chains, ruthlessly effective. It got "worse" in Savage Weapons, Sevatar adopting a taunting attitude, even towards a Primarch. But then ADB releases that blasted introduction to a new novel of his and Sevatar is shown to distrust even his Primarch. That doubled my liking of him and made me immediately more empathized to the guy. This is why Angron will always be a pain to write, whatever doubts and inner strife he has are hidden under pure, brain injected aggression, he really seems to be a bit two-dimensional, most of the time, but as soon as he utters a more complex line, you'll see as everyone clings to the guy as a poor, wronged soul. I know I will. Sorry for text-walling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Angron "I just wanted a hug, one BLOODY HUG BUT DOES HE GIVE ME A HUG. NO! HE WANTS ME TO BE A NON-HUGGING MACHINE, I'LL SHOW HIM!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Angron could be a interesting character, as long as they don't make him a "WAAAGH, me put Ghazkull to shame with big muscles" character. Make him a lovable son of a ;) , which you love to hate. HH is missing out on those. Well Ghazkull is not a bad template. He's a visionary and very good commander (for an Ork). But Angron will be depicted as epileptic, broken yet able to bleed his martial genius to his rage kinda character. At least that's what i got from Aurealian excerpt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
augustmanifesto Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 From my point of view, the HH undertaking character development which shows the complexity of the primarchs in a reasonable way. After all, the basic task is to expose how it is the Heresy was possible, what turned half of god's sons against while keeping motivations generally believable. If the answer was simple "oh, hey, turn out my name is horus and I'm pretty evil or just, you know, really want a lot of power," then my suspension of disbelief would have been grossly violated. Instead, the answer would have to be -- and has been, in the HH series -- the characters are much more nuanced. But the nuance has been presented largely from different perspectives, prompting the issue of who do you believe. Take, say, Magnus. If you're inclined to believe the space wolves perspective, then the narrative there is as black and white as it's always been: Magnus is a a git. If you take seriously the thousand sons perspective, and give Magnus the benefit of the doubt, then Magnus' motives were understandable, if a bit misguided, but you're left distributing the blame to others in the final analysis, even the Emperor. A D-B took this a step further with hinting at some deep complexity of the Emperor in New Heretic, when it was indicated the Emperor may have made a pack with Chaos to produce the Primarchs. Of course, this was presented in a deamon-controlled vision, but a added layer of plausible point of view nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Thats a good idea. He's still a primarch=Stil a genius. It would be interesting if they had him fighting the agression, and slowly failing. Much better than "KILL MAIM BURN! BUT FOR THE EMPEROR!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 I know what people mean by a need to have a human perspective to explain things sometimes and keep the audience interested, but a clever author can still write from the perspective of a loyal Iron Warrior or Night Lord who or whatever who knows their lord is evil beyond redemption and is dragged into the Heresy etc. Hell it would be great to read the sins of the Primarch impacting his increasingly distressed minions. It works well because you can have your cake and eat it; an unashamed evil Primarch and his all too human Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I hear what you're saying, Idaho, but I firmly believe that Curze and Angron will have no sob story whatsoever. I have faith that they are just evil because they are evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Thats a good idea. He's still a primarch=Stil a genius. It would be interesting if they had him fighting the agression, and slowly failing. Much better than "KILL MAIM BURN! BUT FOR THE EMPEROR!" He doesn't need to ditch the anger, his strategy revolves around him and his Space Marines being much, much more aggressive than their enemies. And it works. @Captain Idaho: You had that in The First Heretic. That part where [spoilerS] Ingethel killed and turned Argel Tal and the others [END OF SPOILERS] didn't so much show as shoved the effects of a Primarch's deviant path on his legion. Prospero's destruction did the same for the Thousand Sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Yeah we did and the book was awesome, though it's probably a safe bet it wasn't quite the same since Lorgar had his excuses and the Legion was predisposed to obedience. I do have a sneaky suspician Perturobo is going to be just plain bad. He was always described as a "cold youth" as a child so it would be cool to see this carried on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I hear what you're saying, Idaho, but I firmly believe that Curze and Angron will have no sob story whatsoever. I have faith that they are just evil because they are evil. But they have certain redeeming qualities. Angron's honour and Curze's strive for justice can be considered good and they are mostly product of their sh*tty upbringing. What Idaho wants is some despicable, selfish and inherently evil Primarch regardless of his childhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Saying the Emperor wasn't a father to the Primarches so that's the problem is the apologist stuff I was talking about. He wasn't there for Dorn, or Sanguinius or Guilliman etc, yet they didn't turn. The Primarches might be human in their psyche, but they are grown adults with but a single exception when the met the Emperor. They spent 200 years(ish) with him and then fell about in the space of what, 7 years? Less? Thats where the human element comes in, everyone of them is different as with humans, some Primarchs are some are strong willed some are weak minded. I hear what you're saying, Idaho, but I firmly believe that Curze and Angron will have no sob story whatsoever. I have faith that they are just evil because they are evil. Curze for me was just broken from birth. You just need to read Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver to know that. In those books Curze is just deluded and paranoid far beyond what was in the Night Lords IA, so much so that some of Curze's closest found him almost insufferable. Curze went so far as to make make up threats that weren't there and then go on to fully beleive them to be real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Got it in one mate! Just once is all I need. We have plenty of character, now let's have someone with no redeeming features at all and never had any! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
augustmanifesto Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I hear what you're saying, Idaho, but I firmly believe that Curze and Angron will have no sob story whatsoever. I have faith that they are just evil because they are evil. But they have certain redeeming qualities. Angron's honour and Curze's strive for justice can be considered good and they are mostly product of their sh*tty upbringing. What Idaho wants is some despicable, selfish and inherently evil Primarch regardless of his childhood. Yeah, plus Angron was pretty traumatized as a youngin'. Wasn't he a battle-slave, forced to kill the sh*t out of a bunch of ma's? His anger implants weren't elective either, I don't believe. Nature v. nuture, I suppose :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 For me, Curze is not a 'Big Baddie' as it is insinuated that he knew that the Emperor was going to kill him for pretty much his whole life. I personally choose to think of him like this; As Sanguinius had visions of nobility and heroic sacrifice on Baal and in the Imperium, Curze had visions of the dark deeds that was comitted on his planet, and later in the Imperium, all of it in his fathers name, and this was the father that he knew was going to kill him. Knowing all this, he still chose to fight for the Imperium, as he thought Humanity could be redeemed. Eventually, his need for redemption clashed so much with the sins he had commited that he chose to 'split' himself, either voluntarily or as a self-defence mechanisn, into Curze and the Night Haunter. The Night Haunter was the culmination of Curze's sins, polluted by Chaos, while Curze was the side of him who hated Chaos, his father, the Imperium and all the evil that was commited. This is why he sought vindication, as a justification of why he was so broken, and slowly turning to Chaos. mostly conjecture, but its my two cents, and i like it. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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