Billuriye Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I prefer the idea that the split was actually Curze as the traumatised child, and Night Haunter as the mask he put on to allow himself to survive. Basically, he's Batman if Bruce Wayne had never had an Alfred or any other family to give him some actual emotional development, but after watching his family get gunned down, he had to scavenge for the rest of his life with noone to protect him. Night Haunter is driven, focused and uncompromising. Curze is... the little child growing on a planet of murderers, watching his own death each and every night with noone to comfort him, always scared, always alone. When around others, Curze was distant and untrusting. In times of stress, like when he "woke up" after attacking Dorn, Curze was terrified. The Night Haunter was a survival mechanism he developed, pushing his terror into the deepest parts of his mind. Even after all these years, Curze is still that same child, deep, deep down. I think he was not scared as a child. Angron killed many Eldar freshly out of pod in his childlike and wounded state. Bunch of scum in Nostramo would pose no threat to Curze. He was just too righteous for his own sake and couple that with mind screwing visions he ended up a demented psychopath and with delusions of righteousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 i find the motivations of each primarch very fascinating..if they were just "pure evil" they would be a bit bland and one dimensional to be honest... makes you wonder if it was nature or nurture in their development? (how would dorn, sanguinius or any of the loyal primarchs turn out if they grew up on nostramo, for example?) just my thoughts on the matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I don't think OP is asking for all Chaos Primarchs to just be pure evil and just do things because they're evil. But I think he's disappointed in the way that all of the HH series seems to almost be trying to portray them ALL as justified. I reckon the OP would like the occasional Traitor Primarch who's purely doing it for his own personal gain and not out of some sort of almost justifiable reason. Don't get me wrong, I love the shades of gray that dominate 40K and the HH Universes. Nobody is a real good guy! Great, but it does get to seem almost as if the HH Series is being produced by the Traitor Primarch's PR departments to justify their every action as, well not pure and just but ;) Surely at least one of those guys turned traitor simply for something nice and human like untempered greed or a lust for power?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 there is no such thing as pure evil. no one see themself as evil. to them they will always have a reason which they believe is right and just. Hitler didn't see himself as an evil person. in fact he believed that what he did was for the betterment of mankind and he was a hero for doing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 and therein lies the problem...all actions are justified by the person doing them... If you want pure, nefarious evil-may i suggest the dark eldar? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 there is no such thing as pure evil.no one see themself as evil. to them they will always have a reason which they believe is right and just. Hitler didn't see himself as an evil person. in fact he believed that what he did was for the betterment of mankind and he was a hero for doing it Did you know everytime someone invokes Godwin's law a little German boy who would have cured cancer is killed by Mossad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Did you know everytime someone invokes Godwin's law a little German boy who would have cured cancer is killed by Mossad? Hmm. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 there is no such thing as pure evil.no one see themself as evil. to them they will always have a reason which they believe is right and just. This is just not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 This is just not true. Unfortunately he is right, psychological reports will tell you that. Many "warped" individuals that do nasty things don't see their actions as evil, even though they may actually know that their actions are wrong or considered evil by others or society in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 So. . . it sounds like you're waiting to see Angron make more appearances. He has no sob story; he got over the deaths of the Eaters of Cities at the end of After De'shea, after all. You mean the War Hounds. Their name wasn't Eaters of Cities, but War Hounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 But was Curze truly evil? His men were rapists, serial killers and worse, but he himself only used fear when it was necessary. He himself thought that his life was pointless without vindication, and the Imperium certainly commits genocide just as much as the Night Lords, all in the name of the Emperor. (Well, he thought it was a means to a end until he went Batman crazy and tried to suckerpunch Dorn and then went on a killing spree. I blame his weapons, it was clear he was suffering from size problems with Corax ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 So. . . it sounds like you're waiting to see Angron make more appearances. He has no sob story; he got over the deaths of the Eaters of Cities at the end of After De'shea, after all. You mean the War Hounds. Their name wasn't Eaters of Cities, but War Hounds. The name of the World Eaters before they found Angron was the War Hounds, but the name of Angrons slave-army was the Eaters of Cities. However, I don't think he entirely got over their deaths, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 From what i gather, Angron is going to be a marmite character. Either he will be a blood hungry maniac, and half the fans will be annoyed. Or, he won't be a super killy machine of death, and half the fans will be annoyed. Can you imagine how much stress BL must be going through in the HH series? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 I don't think OP is asking for all Chaos Primarchs to just be pure evil and just do things because they're evil. But I think he's disappointed in the way that all of the HH series seems to almost be trying to portray them ALL as justified. I reckon the OP would like the occasional Traitor Primarch who's purely doing it for his own personal gain and not out of some sort of almost justifiable reason. Don't get me wrong, I love the shades of gray that dominate 40K and the HH Universes. Nobody is a real good guy! Great, but it does get to seem almost as if the HH Series is being produced by the Traitor Primarch's PR departments to justify their every action as, well not pure and just but ;) Surely at least one of those guys turned traitor simply for something nice and human like untempered greed or a lust for power?! Pretty much. What ever happened to good old greed and lust? In a universe such as 40k it is a msytery why none of the Primarches seem to have fallen to such a vice, especially as greed is much easier to understand than honour. (seriously most people don't know what honour is in our society. At least they behave as if they don't) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Pretty much. What ever happened to good old greed and lust? In a universe such as 40k it is a msytery why none of the Primarches seem to have fallen to such a vice, especially as greed is much easier to understand than honour. (seriously most people don't know what honour is in our society. At least they behave as if they don't) I agree i think that is missing completely, it seems to be the writers are turning away from what was for many, a dark storyline, to something that isn't out of place in a early-teen novel. I am actually half expecting to read a Primarch that has all of the features of Edward Cullen from Twilight and has some sort of love interest with a Silent Sister that the Emperor finds out about and forbids the relationship, causing the Primarch to throw a teenage strop and becomes an Anarchist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 This is just not true. Unfortunately he is right, psychological reports will tell you that. Many "warped" individuals that do nasty things don't see their actions as evil, even though they may actually know that their actions are wrong or considered evil by others or society in general. MANY is the key word. There are some who damn well know they're evil and are quite happy with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniac Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I love the Heresy series, I really do. I have very few complaints about it, barring wanting a 3 book series for every Primarch Legion to get a good feel for their role and feelings etc just before and during the Heresy. Impractical of course, but a brother can dream though! Anyway, one thing that is starting to get on my nerves is how every villain has a sob story. They all are tragic, fallen heroes and it's just getting a little, well boring. Every Primarch who turned traitor seems to have a chip on their shoulder and be emotionally dependent on constant reassurance etc. Either that or they are tricked into it. Basically, it's always someone else's fault! I don't know, I haven't read all of the books yet, but so far I have to say it seems bloody obvious who would side with Chaos and who wouldn't. Is it even a tiny surprise that Lorgar, Mortarion, or Angron turned? They had bad evil son of a schlag written all over them even before they were tempted. The way the World Eaters are described their fall really only saw them paint their armor in a new color with no other changes at all (or let's say openly paint it that color, they sure seem to like it red before the fall too). The Word Bearers feel like the Inquisition, one step outside of working for Hell the whole time, and the Death Guard are into toxins and death and so forth... I feel a bit like Tempus from the old Lois and Clark series, " I'm Clark Kent...No I'm Superman...Clark Kent...Superman....you must the the most galactically stupid person on the planet." Except in this case it's like "I'm a loyal Primarch..No I'm really an evil #######...Loyal...######....geeze Dad how could you have been so darn stupid?" You know it'd be far more interesting to have the guys who sure seemed like they should have fallen stay good. Horus at least didn't overtly show the tendency for betrayal until his wounding and corruption during his healing. The other primarchs who turned it wasn't even a surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Many "warped" individuals that do nasty things don't see their actions as evil, even though they may actually know that their actions are wrong or considered evil by others or society in general. Agreed but the majority do not. Some are "evil" (such a yawn word) and they are the ones that generally do it for fun and giggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Damn you, Godwin's Law, damn you! This was entertaining before someone mentioned Hitler. :P Okay, to swing things back on-topic (if I can) - Do I think the series is too apologist? So far, no. The big names have been given the character and insight that was somewhat lacking up until the series was written. But I can't say that my opinion will stay the same, because the series has not finished yet. When it does, that'll be the time I can categorically judge it. But so far, in my humble opinion, some events have been tragic and some events have been the beginnings of a downfall in some characters - I wouldn't say that's apologist. If the series overtly stated that the Heresy wasn't such and such's fault, nor anyone else's, then perhaps it might be. But it doesn't. It merely provides the motives and causes for some characters to fall to damnation (much of it is a fixed result, mind you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 If the series overtly stated that the Heresy wasn't such and such's fault, nor anyone else's, then perhaps it might be. But it doesn't. It merely provides the motives and causes for some characters to fall to damnation (much of it is a fixed result, mind you). The trouble is, all of the reasons they have fallen is because they are all easily influenced. -- To quote Alfred from The Dark Knight: Because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. Where are any of these? WHERE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Where are any of these? WHERE? Maybe Conrad Kurze? It's made known he prefers to rule by fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 If the series overtly stated that the Heresy wasn't such and such's fault, nor anyone else's, then perhaps it might be. But it doesn't. It merely provides the motives and causes for some characters to fall to damnation (much of it is a fixed result, mind you). The trouble is, all of the reasons they have fallen is because they are all easily influenced. -- To quote Alfred from The Dark Knight: Because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. Where are any of these? WHERE? the crazy half of the night haunter? WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I don't think Konrad Curze is anywhere near that, he is a paranoid freak nothing more. Somewhere down the line in the HH series there has to be a completely cold, focussed, calculated killer that wants nothing more than to kill everything, just because he can. The trouble is none of the Primarchs fit that description, so either one of the Primarchs has to be rewritten to be like that or someone new has to be introduced to fill that spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Sevatar does seem to fit the 'pure evil' (which is mental disturbance at its highest, and I'm not really interested in having 'American Psycho' with my 40K) trope, but among the Primarchs I can't see any fitting candidate. Angron has an aggression-inducing device and, unlike what some have stated, has a seriously seriously good reason to be pissed at his father. And so does Lorgar, truth be told. I honestly don't see the apology. Yes, people will root for bad guys and charismatic tyrants, but the judgement is on the actions. The best of reasons doesn't justify putting billions to the sword, in this context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saa Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I'm not really interested in having 'American Psycho' with my 40K Oh I don't know, I think Patrick Bateman would make a cracking primarch bad guy though he would be a mix of Fulgrim and Curze so they have that covered :rolleyes: I think we shall have to see how both Curze and Perturabo are written. Whilst I tend to agree with some previous posters that Curze's motivations wernt exclusively born from 'pure evil', he's a crazy, ruthless lil fella and we could see some 'I do it because it is my right to do so' scenarios. Perty is as stated a cold and paranoid guy so he also has the potential for 'i have been used, I'll show you AAAALLLL' but again it could be portrayed as apologistic so I'm just spitballing. Angrons issues stem from the abandonment of his brothers in arms, the closest bonds he had in a world that used him like a dog......that and his RAEG implants of course. And whilst it would make a good read, I don't think that this is what the OP is looking for Saa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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