Flavus Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Your Paladins would have been reduced to I1 due to Purifier Psyk-out Grenades, their Halberds would have swung first and you'd have been swarmed by the sheer number of attacks coming your way. Sorry, but I think only one random paladin would have been reduced to I1 due to Purifier Psyk-out Grenades attack. Look at codex for ability Brotherhood of psykers: If the Grey Knight unit suffer the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead. Crynn, many thanks for your reports, very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Ooops, you are correct. It doesn't matter, though. Run 10 Purifiers into 10 Paladins and they'll wipe about half of them out anyway due to Force Weapons. Oh, sure, you may lose your Purifiers in the sustained combat, but they're easily making their points back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 but this then asks the question, is a grenade effect an attack? I believe we had a multi page thread in the OR forum about this. The 1 game I played against grey knights we ruled that it effected the whole squad. It just seems fairer that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borinar Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 If people are playing that the assassin gets only 1 attack per unit of knights because they are treated as 1 psyker then why would they suddenly be treated as 5-10 psykers for the purpose of psykout? I agree with Flavus, the Justicar or another single Knight is affected by the grenades as they are the conduit for the brotherhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Everyone I play with treats the entire squad as affected. G :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I'm interested to hear how the ven dread is getting on (sorry if its been covered only scanned the thread) do you find that its an easy target for your opponents or is having all those paladins going towards them enough to make people worried into ignoring it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 I'm interested to hear how the ven dread is getting on (sorry if its been covered only scanned the thread) do you find that its an easy target for your opponents or is having all those paladins going towards them enough to make people worried into ignoring it?? Firstly let me appologise as I am yet to write up the Deathwing Battle report that was asked for and I did say i would do so and am more than happy to. I have been really sick lately and haven't had the stomach for writing up one of my hour long battle reports. However thank you everyone for continuing to read and use this thread, I must say it actually makes writing worth the time, Especially you BO even though we have had our different opinions more openly displayed in forums than some would like. hehe. Secondly, I have always played the psychout grenades as effecting the whole unit even though this disadvantages my army against other GK players. I have not found a player who has even suggested playing it otherwise but i am happy to use this thread for further discussion on the matter as it effets my army to some degree. Lastly, the Ven Dread. Let me sum up how I feel about the ven dread. I had the choice to either upgrade my GM to Draigo (who I would like to have in the army) or my dread to a ven, but in all honesty it was never a choice. I have rules when creating army lists and one of those is 'If you take any kind of Grand Master you take a Ven Dread', in my opinion he is the best objective sitter the GKs have. More durable than a strike unit with longer range and cannot be tank shocked or moved with leadership based attacks. It generally uses my Land raider as cover (LOS blocking) so that most units can't shoot at it allowing it to just shoots down transports all game which helps my paladins actually catch things. The land raider also hepls de-mech enemies and with split fire can at least attempt to stun 2 vehicles which is very important when you are playing with limited units. At the Australasian Team Championship The Ven Dread did not get destroyed once, once it lost both arms, another time just the one arm and another time immobilized. It is so rediculously difficult to destroy, especially since the paladins alone can give it a cover save (They really do, put a camera on a table with terminators infront of a dread and take a photo, you get more than 50% obscured, paladins also have emblems on their back which make them taller again) Each and every time people shoot at my ven dread with a STR 8+ weapons, even missile launchers, I smile inside that they are not shooting my paladins. A Ven Dread with cover requires somewhere along the lines of 75 BS 4 missiles to destroy which is rediculous, you are almost as likely to destroy it by stripping off all it's weapons immobilizing it then finsihing it off with another damaged result. In the end my Ven sits on home objectives, the pallies go for the middle objectives, (plural, I always place obectives so multiple ones are close to each other) the strikes go for any that are out-lying and away from the main battle and the DCA with the Landraider bolster whichever front they are needed on. The ven upgrade gives the rest of my army the freedom to move forward, it's a great investment however you only need one in most games. If i was to purchase another dread it most likely wouldn't be venerable. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsama Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I've enjoyed your thread, and a lot of your insights as well, including your thoughts on Land Raiders and rules explanations. This is just awesome though Lastly, the Ven Dread. Let me sum up how I feel about the ven dread. I had the choice to either upgrade my GM to Draigo (who I would like to have in the army) or my dread to a ven, but in all honesty it was never a choice. I have rules when creating army lists and one of those is 'If you take any kind of Grand Master you take a Ven Dread', in my opinion he is the best objective sitter the GKs have. More durable than a strike unit with longer range and cannot be tank shocked or moved with leadership based attacks. It generally uses my Land raider as cover (LOS blocking) so that most units can't shoot at it allowing it to just shoots down transports all game which helps my paladins actually catch things. The land raider also hepls de-mech enemies and with split fire can at least attempt to stun 2 vehicles which is very important when you are playing with limited units. At the Australasian Team Championship The Ven Dread did not get destroyed once, once it lost both arms, another time just the one arm and another time immobilized. It is so rediculously difficult to destroy, especially since the paladins alone can give it a cover save (They really do, put a camera on a table with terminators infront of a dread and take a photo, you get more than 50% obscured, paladins also have emblems on their back which make them taller again) Each and every time people shoot at my ven dread with a STR 8+ weapons, even missile launchers, I smile inside that they are not shooting my paladins. A Ven Dread with cover requires somewhere along the lines of 75 BS 4 missiles to destroy which is rediculous, you are almost as likely to destroy it by stripping off all it's weapons immobilizing it then finsihing it off with another damaged result. In the end my Ven sits on home objectives, the pallies go for the middle objectives, (plural, I always place obectives so multiple ones are close to each other) the strikes go for any that are out-lying and away from the main battle and the DCA with the Landraider bolster whichever front they are needed on. The ven upgrade gives the rest of my army the freedom to move forward, it's a great investment however you only need one in most games. If i was to purchase another dread it most likely wouldn't be venerable. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 I am very sorry this has taken so long. I hope to be much more active with reports in the future. I have taken a lot of time off games to get my army properly build and painted so that is why things have slowed down. I take a long time to convert and even longer to paint. When I get a full unit done I will put up some photos. So this is the deathwing report I promised for so long. I will say that both me and my opponent wanted this matchup as well both thought we would smash each other. This is how it went down. BATTLE REPORT 9 ATC match. GREY KNIGHTS VS DEATHWING His list: 4th Round: Deathwing 2 Objectives WIN 20/0 HQ: Belial, Master of the Deathwing (1#, 130 pts) 1 Belial, Master of the Deathwing, 130 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield; Fearless; Independent Character; Rites of Battle) Troops: Upgraded Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 265 pts) 4 Upgraded Deathwing Terminator Squad, 265 pts (Narthecium; Unit Type: Infantry; Narthecium/Reductor; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4; Cyclone Missile Launcher; Apothecary; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) 1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts) 4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 235 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4; Cyclone Missile Launcher; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) 1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts) 4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 235 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4; Cyclone Missile Launcher; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) 1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts) 4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 235 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4; Cyclone Missile Launcher; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) 1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts) 4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 235 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4; Cyclone Missile Launcher; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) 1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts) 4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 235 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4; Cyclone Missile Launcher; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) 1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armor; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield; Deathwing Assault; Fearless) Fast Attack: Ravenwing Bike Squadron 3 Ravenwing bikes, (1 meltagun, scout, fearless) 1 Attack Bike with a Multi Melta Deployment: Pitched I won the role off and decided to go first. Now I hear you say why did I want that, the simple reason was I wanted the first round of shooting, I was pretty sure that I could hold my objective. The second reason was the big one. even with my servo skulls I didn't want his bikes and attack bike to scout and then have a first turn where they may find a way around my skulls and get a sneaky melta shot with 2d6 pen on my land raider. there was practically no terrain in the middle of the boards with various LOS blocking building and basic ruins along the edges about 6-12 inches in. I chose the side with the building that could have an objective in it and was also in the very back corner because I didn't want him leaving a termi squad there with the objective making it very difficult for me to get there. I also didn’t use this as I wanted to bait him to come get me and not play for the draw so I put mine near the corner on the second level of a ruin. I rolled a 4 for GS and made the paladins and ven read scoring as per usual. I deployed my skulls slightly to one side of the board so as to make a line he couldn’t cross with scouting bikes in case he stole the initiative however unlikely that may seem. I deployed my strikes with 2 psycannons in the building on the objective and the others more in the middle of the board, the land raider was also next to the 5 strikes near the middle of the board and the paladins were just in-between my land raider and strikes also near the middle of the board. the ven dread was in-between the paladins and the strikes on my objective. DCA and chars in the raider. He put his objective near the opposite corner to mine (as expected) at ground level and proceeded to put down all his terminators along the 12 inch line of the board. The bikes were close to his objective and the attack bike was behind a LOS blocking building in the middle of his deployment zone. I also had a small los blocking building in the middle of my deployment zone which was not he opposite side of my raider as my strikes and paladins. His bikes scouted up the left flank, turbo-boosting to get closer to my land raider but stay away from all my units which were more towards my right flank. Steal the initiative he didn't bother as he wanted second turn, I think at this stage he couldn't believe his luck. GREY KNIGHTS TURN 1: Movement: Before I go any further there are few things that may help you understand why I was confident in my ability to win this game. 1st, one Deathwing unit even with full SS/TH config will completely bounce off my paladins even ignoring the effect of psychotrokes, so unless he could whittle down my paladins any one unit he charges into them will evaporate before it attacks. If he charges 2 units he will cause some dmg but still lose out however I have only 10 pallies he has 30 terminators. If he charges me with 15, I lose the game. However he is slower than me (I can use my LR to sling shot and have a mobile unit inside) Second, he has considerably less firepower so whether he knows it or not this battle will be fought on my terms. His missiles bounce off the land raider and most off the paladins and the ven dread leaving him shooting strikes if he so chooses. I will never let him charge me with even 2 units of Deathwing at once through clever moving and the use of sanctuary. Turn 1 sees me move all my foot troops forward 6 inches except the strikes in the building who go only4 from DT, this is to get into range with my guns, my other trike moved behind the los blocking building on my land raiders left to protect from melta bikes, I know that without the meltas he has no hope of killing my raider which will be the main tool I use to win this game. the ven dread moves closer to the objective and the raider moves up 6 inches with the paladins and dread completely out of LOS from about half his terminators on the left flank, this is why I will win the shooting game, he now only has a total of 6 missiles that can fire at anything other than the raider, 2 others can see my strikes hiding behind the LOS blocking building in the middle of my deployment. Shooting: I know all I need to do is try to kill off cyclone missiles and reduce each squad to about 3 terminators to make it almost completely ineffective in assault, even 2 squads of 3 termies charging will do nothing. First I unload the pallies into one of his DW units that can see most of my army, I don't rend at all however I cause 15 wounds, putting 3 wound on each model in the unit, I leave belials unit alone even though it is the closest to my army because it has FnP. from the 15 wounds he is forced to put 3 on the cyclone in the unit and loses it and 12 on the other hammers loosing another 1, great that's one unit I no longer care about, the 5 strikes with the psycannon open up on the next unit killing just one hammer. the ven dread having Str 8 shots and not having vision of the attack bike yet shoots at belials unit, ignoring there FnP and laying down 4 wound he drops one of belials retinue, the guy actually put it on belial not thinking I had psybolt ammo which instant kills him however I told him to change it as it was obviously an innocent mistake. The land raider split fire putting a lascannon into belials unit which bounced off a storm shield and a heavy bolter into the 4 man DW unit but failed to kill any. The strike squad near the building ran 2 inches to gain better cover. Death Wing Turn 1: Movement: He moves all his terminators forward 6 inches trying to close the gap on me. The bikes turbo boost to the other side of the LOS blocking building in my deployment and his attack bike turbo boosts behind the terminators getting ready to melta the LR next turn. Shooting: the two unit with cyclones that can see my paladins fire into them however both wounds they cause bounce of their armour, the unit with the cyclone that moved to see my strikes shoots at them killing one through cover. the other 2 cyclones shoot the LR as it's all they can see managing a stun, the landraider just save my paladins 4 rockets, this is a major reason I like the god hammer raider, especially when I am not using it to run into their melta guns. GREY KNIGHTS TURN 2: Movement: My paladins shuffle slightly into a big ball trying to bait him to fir frag missiles. Sure the will hit 6 paladins however every weapon in his army insta kills my paladins so having some wounded doesn't matter as one hit from pretty much anything that gets passed there armour kills them. The raider passes its fortitude test and also does the same not really moving forward at all just adjusting to get 2 lascannons facing good targets, the ven dread does a small similar move, essentially adjusting to get better firing lanes. Strike on the right near my objective don't move, the ones on the left move to charge the bikes on the other side of the building. Shooting: The paladins open up on the 4 man unit dealing 13 wounds with 1 rend killing 2 more but not the cyclone, the strikes fire at the same unit killing just the cyclone leaving the unit with 1 guy, the ven dread puts 3 wounds on the attack bike, it fails a save an dies to instant death and now the game is there for me to take with his only other melta about to be charged by strikes which don't shoot in case they remove one bike leaving them out charge range. The raider shoots its lascannon and heavy bolter at a new 5 man unit but fails to drop any. Assault: I charge my 4 strike knights into his bikes in order to eliminate the last melta threat however I fudge my attacks only killing 1 but losing none in return. As the ravenwing are fearless they hold. DEATH WING TURN 2: Movement: Again all the terminator move forward 6 inches even the ones on his objective move forward, obviously to go back later. By this stage he is at the centre line of the board with most of his terminators and starting to close in on me. Shooting: He takes the bait and 4 frag rockets cause around 12 wounds on the paladins 3 getting passed armour, this is irrelevant to me as no models get removed. 2 rockets slam into the ven dread which 1 unit can see doing nothing. 4 krak rockets fire into the raider as it's all they can see, again doing nothing. Assault: Combat sees me kill another bike and lose a strike knight. GREY KNIGHTS TURN 3: Movement: I move back with my paladins to avoid the terminators assault next turn but decide now is the time to strike the left flank. The Land raider moves up the left flank towards 3 full Deathwing units, the land raider moving also open up firing lanes to one of these squads for the paladins. I unload the deathcult with the GM and coteaz I figure I can totally wipe one unit and then take on the other 2 squads with their counter assault. Shooting: The paladins fire into one of the terminator units on the right flank, 14 wounds sees 2 terminators drop leaving a total of 13 on the flank. The ven dread fires into belials unit killing the banner bearer the strike fire into the 4 man terminator unit coming down the left flank but don't kill any. The land raider fires a twin link lascannon into belials unit killing another hammer as well. At this point the right flank has a terminator unit with 1 model and terminator unit with 3 models and belials unit with 3 + Belial. coteaz and the gm shoot into the terminator unit they are about to assault however kill none, the mystic with a las pistol drops one though! Assault: The DCA with lord bossmore (GM) and coteaz charge the man DW unit, my psychotroke grenades roll a 1 ( I common trend throughout this game as all I roll is 5s, 4s and 1s. I 1 does nothing, a 4 makes them Ld 2 but because they are all fearless does nothing and a 5 makes them i1 which they are all anyway due to the hammers so does nothing as well, so from now on I won't address the psychotrokes in this battle anymore). Needless to say with 1 hammer hand from the GM allowing the DCA and friend to wound on 2's the whole DW unit is wiped before it can strike. I roll a 2 for consolidate and spread out towards the left flank to avoid being fragged and with the help of sanctuary avoid being charged by the DW unit which the paladins just reduced to 3 in number. MY Knights finish off the last raven wing biker and console 5 inches towards the DCA to help them out. DEATHWING TURN 3: Movement: He moves all the terminators forward and is now closing on the strike knights and paladins, they are running out of space to run into. Shooting: This time after seeing no paladins fall fires into the ven dread as it is now next to my objective and he needs it removed. Unfortunately for him the only pen only causes a stunned result. the other 2 terminator units with cyclones fire frags into the DCA however due to coteaz and the GM having 2+ saves they only manage to kill the banisher, the unit isn't actually as weak as it looks on paper. Assault: He charges my deathcult with both units of termies that fired rockets into them, coteaz casts sanctuary however both units make combat one needing a 5+. I am now in combat with 8 terminators and the aim is just to take down as many as possible. As I briefly mentioned psychotrokes fail on both accounts, Coteaz cast hammer hands and fails taking a wound, the GM picks up the slack and passes hammerhand. my DCA put out 15 attacks that due to allocation rules have to be split amongst the termies they are in base to base with meaning I have to target both units with some attacks, I roll bad dropping 2 from the big squad and 1 from the small one. The GM picks of another from the bigger unit leaving 2 in each squad. Due to blind grenades he is left with 4 attacks from each squad 2 which must attack my 2 on coteaz and 4 on the DCA unit, coteaz falls as expected, the gm saves the 3++ he is forced to make and the mystic and 2 DCA fall to the hammers. I loose combat by a bit but manage to hold. It doesn't matter too much though as both units no longer have their Cyclones and the whole left flank is open for my land raider to park itself on his objective. GREY KNIGHTS TURN 4: Movement: My opponent cleverly had moved his terminators around to one side of my objective where my paladins could not charge him. So the paladins move back to my objective in order to protect it. My strikes which had finished off the bikes move up to assist the DCA though they will not be in range to charge this turn. The land raider moves 12 inches around the combat closing in on my opponent’s objective. Shooting: The paladins fir at the 3 man Terminator unit closing in on my objective killing 2 the ven kills another one off belials bodyguard and the strikes try to finish off the loan terminator but fail. The land raider pops a long ranged lascannon into one of the terminators closing on my objectives however it bounces off his storm shield. Assault: My DCA and GM are under the pump. The GM successfully cast hammer hands and the DCA remove no paladins! His saves were really good! The GM also removes none, he passed around 7 saves! In return he kills the DCA down to one assassin however the GM deflects bother attacks that hit him surviving for another day. DEATHWING TURN 4: Movement: Now he is right on me with his 2 remaining units however they are staring at 10 full paladins and 5 strikes. He moves up to try and get in assault range of the strikes before the paladins get back to defend. Shooting: Realizing how ineffective his rockets have been on the paladins and ven dread he opts for the strike knights. The rockets hit home killing 2. They pass their leadership check and hold strong on their objective. Assault: My GM once again casts hammerhands. The DCA kills one terminator The GM fails to do so. ! Assault terminator hits the GM who once again passes his save however the other 2 terminators finish off the last DCA drawing combat. GREY KNIGHTS TURN 5: Movement: The paladins move up 4 inches through difficult terrain to help defend my home objective. The strikes on the left close in on the terminators to help the GM fend off his attackers. The land raider positions itself in a way that means the terminators cannot even get back to the objective in turns if the beat my GM and strikes. Shooting: The Ven dread fires into belials unit finally killing the apoc allowing the paladins to fire into the unit leaving just belial who saves all his wounds. Assault: The strikes assault the 3 Deathwing terminators, the gm casts hammerhand however the justicar passes as well but kills himself in the process the gm causes two wounds both saved by the terminators, the strikes lay down their 6 attacks killing 1 the two remaining deathwing split their attacks the gam once again makes his save however 2 strikes fall causing me to lose combat. The GM holds however the strikes run 9 inches. DEATHWING TURN 5: Movement: He has 2 models left on each flank. belial and a loan terminator he needs to get one into range of my objective which will require a big run move and DT move. his combined move and DT for both isn't enough, he needed to go around 11 - 12 inches to even have a chance to get in range. Assault: GM fails to cast hammer hand however takes down another terminator. who strike back causing a single wound which......... He passes! the most boss GM ever, seriously between the both of us we have passed that many 3++ saves it is ridiculous. I win combat by 1, fearless save does nothing. Game goes to turn 6 GREY KNIGHTS TURN 6: Movement: My paladins move up a tiny bit through terrain about 2 inches from both remaining terminators. The strikes regroup and head back to help out the GM. Shooting: Shooting sees the ven dread kill belial with instant death and just for gags I shoot the last terminator away with the paladins who cement the fact the fact they didn't even see combat the whole time, at no point could the guy get enough terminators in range to charge the paladins to have them not just get wiped before they would strike. Assault: Strikes charge in, one casts hammerhands killing himself, lol, the gm shows them how it’s done. All of the attack the one remaining terminator who... passes every damn save! In return the terminator kills the last 2 strikes! What a boss! the gm holds though. DEATHWING TURN 6: Assault: The grandmaster again successfully casts hammerhands putting 2 more wounds onto the DW termie and finally slays him. GG. I was never really in doubt of this game as I knew with clever movement he would never get enough terminators into combat with the paladins to wipe them. as it was he realized what it would take to remove them and was unable to affect the game with the 3 squads and belial he committed to the task. All up I lost half a strike coteaz and the DCA unit but tabled him scraping me into a 20/0 victory which I was very happy about, the opposing team were not so happy as that guy has a 'green' match up against me, which meant he was supposed to win that game. I hope that gives some insight into just how useful a land raider can be and how just because you have paladins and a raider full of DCA doesn't mean you have to run head long into CC. Remember the game is won in the movement phase. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Awesome battle crynn, well done. By taking out his melta, you let him have almost no chance of taking out your vehicles. Very good use of the landraider too, far to many people use just as an assault vehicle, a mobile wall is very useful :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarn Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Crynn, I love reading this thread, and your list is very interesting as it isn't Driagowing, it isn't vehicle spam, and it makes use of a single godhammer. And to top it off, it keeps winning, even in no comp environments. Got a question for you, how would you take the list to 2k? Interceptors? More troops? Swap the GM for Draigo? A second raider maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 He charges my deathcult with both units of termies that fired rockets into them, coteaz casts sanctuary however both units make combat one needing a 5+. Doesn't Sanctuary require Difficult and Dangerous Terrain tests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 He charges my deathcult with both units of termies that fired rockets into them, coteaz casts sanctuary however both units make combat one needing a 5+. Doesn't Sanctuary require Difficult and Dangerous Terrain tests? it absolutely does, I should have mentioned that he passed all his dangerous terrain checks as well getting the 5+ for difficult terrain he needed for one of the squads. The other squad he charged with also lost no members to dangerous terrain, storm shields are pretty good for that. Regards Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Oh, yeah, forgot about the Storm Shields. In any case, well played. I can just imagine the other team's dismay when you pulled out the superior tactics for the win :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Very well played Crynn. I have messed around with a generic GM but have gone back to Draigo... your 3++ may have won you the game. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Very well played Crynn. I have messed around with a generic GM but have gone back to Draigo... your 3++ may have won you the game. G Thanks B.O. Yeah the GM put up a good fight but it didn't really matter once the 2 remaining squads charged him. It let the land raider get onto his objective and from there on it was game over, if the GM ha died it would have only been a 19/1 win so he definately did his part. Really shows the randomness of psychotroke though proving to be quite useless in that particular game. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Crynn, I love reading this thread, and your list is very interesting as it isn't Driagowing, it isn't vehicle spam, and it makes use of a single godhammer. And to top it off, it keeps winning, even in no comp environments. Got a question for you, how would you take the list to 2k? Interceptors? More troops? Swap the GM for Draigo? A second raider maybe? I think you clearly have a good idea of how I look at list development as all of your ideas are ones I would consider, maybe not the second raider. It's funny that you have brought this up as recently I have been asking myself the very same thing. The list is built specifically for 1750, like my Blood Angel list is built specifically for 1500. It isn't always a matter of just tacking things on to fill points, I like all my units to work together to become more than the sum of their parts, it may not seem like it however I took plenty of time making this list as I do with all lists as I think that there is a real skill to it that some people don't see. If I was to take this to 2000, which I am looking at doing there are a few options I would consider, I am not 100% for either of the options so perhaps you and any fellow readers could give your own point of view on these proposed expansions. Firstly I need to look at what I believe are the weakness to my list. Dark eldar in specific true born venom spam lists with many blasters, all though even the normal lance spam dark eldar has proven to be a push over for this list with the right application of deployment options and combat squads. Melta vet chimera spam guard, backed by manticores and vendettas. Heavy melta lascannon spam BA razor spam can be hard and spacewolf grey hunter melta spam can hurt too. another overall weakness that I share with generic Draigowing armies is a lack of ability to target/supress a large number of targets each turn such as all those melta vet chimera or blaster venoms. Now I built my list to somewhat solve this problem so I am definitely in a better stead in this regards than the 15 paladin dreadknight lib combo that floats around, however it is still not my strong point. Knowing this I'll write down some expansion ideas (many that you suggested actually) and we can discuss the pros and cons. In all expansions and even my standard list I am dropping the banisher and replacing him with a normal acolyte and with the spare 11 points i am MCing 2 non halberd psycannons in the paladin unit and putting a search light on the ven dread. Just a note, I stand by the banisher as a good 11 point upgrade on an acolyte as for 11 points I physically cannot lose to demons, both games I have eplayed against demons have been 20/0 victories including a fate crusher list. However the guy who plays the good (there is a bad one) fatecrusher list in my state has since moved on to guard. Knowing that it is very unlikely I will face a seriously good demon opponent with an army that to match I have made these changes to my list. Also in all lists where I change the GM to draigo it does in some ways lessen my ability to combat squad my paladins as draigos main ability is absorbing shots that would otherwise hit the pallies. If I split them they may just target the unit without draigo. Expansion 1: Upgrade GM to Draigo Add 1 Ven Psyfleman dread This makes my paladins scoring and more resilient and allows GS to be applied to another unit in scoring missions hence the second men dread. It also adds more ranged punch for De-meching. I lose the grenade grandmaster, I view the grenades as very important and often the GM will be with DCA and the grenades can be a lot of use for them as well as the paladins sometimes greatly benefit from the blind grenades that the GM has. I also do not gain a whole lot more target suppression ability for an additional 250 points. Expansion 2: upgrade GM to draigo, Upgrade strikes to interceptors with the same load out Add a normal psyfleman dread. Same weaknesses as the first however I gain more manoeuvrability with the interceptors but less scoring due to them not being scoring like the strikes, this is where a normal psyfleman dread is good as unless I roll a 5-6 on GS it won't be scoring like then Ven Dread will be most games. Expansion 3: Psybolt ammo upgrade for the strikes (which I have always wanted them to have) A psybolt razorbacks for the Deathcults and one for the strikes (both will rarely be used as transports) This allows me to split the strikes and put both in razorbacks to move around in, also with str6 weapons they will also be useful in supressing light vehicles like dark eldar venoms and getting side armour shots on chimeras. They will also be useful in blocking LOS to paladins giving them an easier march up the board. drop 1 MC on paladin with the psycannon and hammer take 1 psyfleman dread. I gain an extra Dread with good ranged capabilities and two transports capable of performing tank shocks and blocking firing lanes, they are also able to annoy transports. I also gain psybolt ammo on my strike allowing them to combat squad and still be useful against transports even without a psycannon if i split the 2 psycannons into one unit. I can also re-deploy units into these transports if needs be. I gain 3 kill points however the dread is still reasonably resistant and if am really planning on winning the mission by kill points I can simply reserve the razor backs and bring them on late using GS into corners of the board where they cannot be targeted. Expansion 4: Psybolt ammo on the strikes. Henchman unit with 3 melta acolytes 1 acolyte with psyback with dozer blade and search light Henchman unit with 3 melta acolytes 2 DCA with psyback with dozer blade and search light Gain two more scoring units both bringing some useful (maybe even needed) melta 1 has some reasonable combat ability. Some anti transport ability for the razorbacks + decent tank shock and LOS blocking ability. Don't realg gain much more long range punch and both henchman units are useful but can give up kill points and aren't tough. Expansion 5: 5 Purifiers with 2 psycannons 1 hammer 2 halberds in a psyback psyback for the strikes Searchlight on Land raider. Again gives me tank shock and LOS blocking abilities (both of these abilities are underrated and underused by many people I think) gives me a great anti hoard unit for blob squads plus another 2 psycannons and mild general CC ability. Don't gain much extra long range firepower however extra psycannons are always useful. So there are some options I am throwing around, what do you guys think? Do you have any suggestions of your own? Thanks to everyone who keeps reading and showing support for the thread, I may be doing some guest writing on '3++ is the new black' in future, so all this writing up of tactica and explanations for my unit choices here will hopefully help me construct easily digested articles. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Psyflemen are really really good. They can easily work with the various builds. G :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarn Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 It is an interesting conundrum. I may be wrong, but to me it looks like your list does well because it doesn't present any soft targets. If you start adding razors I think they'll just attract an inordinate amount of fire and die early into every game. Which is why I suggested the extra godhammer. Another option may be deepstriking a 5 man gkt squad led by thawn onto one of your objectives. I've done this a bit and he is a total pain to move as you can't simply kill him and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 It is an interesting conundrum. I may be wrong, but to me it looks like your list does well because it doesn't present any soft targets. If you start adding razors I think they'll just attract an inordinate amount of fire and die early into every game. Which is why I suggested the extra godhammer. Another option may be deepstriking a 5 man gkt squad led by thawn onto one of your objectives. I've done this a bit and he is a total pain to move as you can't simply kill him and move on. You make a good point however razorbacks still draw attention from missiles and lascannons a lot of the time and that fire then doean't hit my paladins. The only time their lack of resilience (they are still reasonably annoying) is a problem is in KP where I can easily leave them behind. What they do do is fill some holes in my army in terms of being able to effect more transports per turn as well as providing more LOS blocking for my paladins also don't ever underestimate a good tank shock in some ways it can be like lash as with clever movement you can actually push enemy units of objectives or out of 'bubbles' such as BA FnP. Remember my strike knights aren't exactly tough either I just have to be careful where i place them and make sure they aren't in range of anti infantry fire power that way if people want to shoot them it is generally with things that have more than 24" range which tends to be ehavier weapons in many cases. Also a Razorback is only 50 points with those loadouts and brings a lot for the points. I am more trying to fill holes in my list more so than make it mroe rock paper scissors, this is the whole reason I went against the normal draigowing as I wanted an army that was more generalized. Did you like any of the expansions for 2000 points I posted? if not what would I use the land raider for? It provides slightly more ranged anti tank but not even as much as a dread, I mainly use the landraider for the tactical tricks and abilties it lends me and for that I need only 1. I find I need more units to supress more targets. Thoguhts? Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarn Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Hi Crynn, you are no doubt a better player than me, so I'd guess all your suggestions are pretty good. Having said that, I'd probably look at adding either 5 interceptors with a hammer, draigo and psybolts, or 3 henchmen squads, each with 3 warriors, 2 meltas and a rhino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Hi Crynn,you are no doubt a better player than me, so I'd guess all your suggestions are pretty good. Having said that, I'd probably look at adding either 5 interceptors with a hammer, draigo and psybolts, or 3 henchmen squads, each with 3 warriors, 2 meltas and a rhino. That is nice of you to say. all those suggestions are good and I do apprecaite what interceptors can bring to a list. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I think one of the main benefits of your landraider is a vehicle in which you can reliably launch assaults with your DCA. Sure it's also a mobile piece of terrain as well. I'd kit it with psybolt ammo if it could make the lascannons S10 - oh well it's still a very good long range AT fire platform irregardless. G :no: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I think psybolt ammunition is quite good enough without applying it's effects to las weapons too :P ! Will be very interested to see anything you write on 3++ Cyrnn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 I think psybolt ammunition is quite good enough without applying it's effects to las weapons too :P ! Will be very interested to see anything you write on 3++ Cyrnn. Thanks for the support/vote of confidence (unless i have read into this too much :P) Hopefully I will stay clear of just writing netlists and codex reviews and be able to provide some unique insight into some less well covered topics. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.