greatcrusade08 Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 ok so heres the thing, another thread in the tactica section was hijacked by myelf and a few others and we got discussing one of my fave characters, Khan. so i decided to bring him our of retirement and try again to fit him with my scout army.. just for fun i put in a land raider redeemer to fly the boys into battle, the list looked something like this: Khan Cassius 10 ccw scouts -combi-flamer -power fist LRR -extra armour LSS with MM scouts with fist, combi-melta, meltabombs LSS with MM scouts with fist, combi-melta, meltabombs 10 snipers -telion -ML thunderfire thunderfire i had included 10 scout bikes, but there was a chap without a game last night, so we ended up running a team game, 1 vs 2, and i had to drop some points to make it even. now i realise in a team game you cant really properly test a units/armies potential, but i did learn some interesting things. one of the biggest was that the same 'effect' that allows my thunderfires to get more than one turn (doesnt always happen) actually works for my LRR too.. even though my opponent had 3000 points of tau on the board (my ally was necrons who did little but made a nice target of themselves) my land raider didnt take a single hit. its down to my land speeder storm crews.. yes i know they are entirely suicidal, but by them time they are dealt with my uber unit is jumpin from thier pimp wagon ready to pop a camp in someones ass. plus the LSS are very capable of doing damage, i had one crew turn an entire flank with help from thunderfires which are just awesome. my opponent had 5 piranhas ready to trundle forward and take out my LR and/or artillery, my scout boys got off an alpha strike on them squadron and destroyed one, wrecked two and knocked the weapon from a fourth, leaving only one with a useable weapon, on the very next turn the LRR rumbled forward and spewed out khan, cassius and the boys who jumped on several units at once and tore through his whole army one turn at a time (quite literally killed about 1200+ points between them).. ok so they are tau, the only army my scouts hit on a 3+, but it showed me that scouts with furious charge, re-rolls to hit and hit and run and brutal... god i miss my khan, why did i ever switch to shrike??? *sigh* might explain the difference at ASMOH, year one i used khan and come tenth, second time i used shrike and come in at 26th about half way down the board. so yes Khan has made it back into the first team, but also so has the land raider.. now the problem i have is keeping that land raider alive and that means eventually switching the t-fires for vindicators and adding in some dreadies.. but that is for the future (ive no doubt a new dex will come out and change things up again soon).. in the mean time, ive decided that my core will always be scouts.. telion and his snipers, the ccw dudes and the melta LSS torpedos, all of whom perform superbly oh and khan got himself another trophy, he took the head of commander farsight. the only other issue i have is whether or not to switch the ten ccw scouts at 175 points for 5 assault terms (mostly claws) for 200.. the issue isnt hitting power becuase the 2 Ics alone are awesome, plus the masses of scout attacks at I5, S5 with re-rolls.. its the fact that i can take the LR as a dedicated transport and outflank with it if necessary.. against hordes ill say the scouts are far superior to the terms, however against termies and some marine armies (like plague boys) the terms have the edge thoughts, opinions, ideas.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I find getting a Landraider to survive to deliver it's cargo is an entirely situational, game by game task. Against certain opponents you should put it into reserve if they have 1st turn, so you can use smoke the same turn, for example. The key method I find to ensure survival of a vehicle is to force the opponent to play the odds. Use another vehicle to block line of sight just enough to grant a cover save and you force a situation where the opponent has to shoot at your tougher to kill Landraider and potentially waste fire, or go for the easy kill. Similarly, as you found in this game, providing a threat with a higher immediate priority than the Landraider. This can be combined with the above method, as well as good old fashioned targetting your Landraider's threat, for a longer lived Landraider! Fortunately, many people struggle to take down a Landraider at range since people believe Lascannons are over priced compared to Missile Launchers and concentrate on these plus meltas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2851614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thantoes Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I used to run a similar unit though I used tooled up vanguard instead of termies. Its good times and can cause a lot of damage :lol: Fortunately, many people struggle to take down a Landraider at range since people believe Lascannons are over priced compared to Missile Launchers and concentrate on these plus meltas. Have to agree, I have lost more raiders to lascannons than anything else. Thier longer range means they can get in a couple of shots as compared to a melta gun and lest face it, against LR's missile launchers are practically worthless. As to being over priced its BS really. Yes, at 35 points in a devestaor squad they are not cheap BUT a lascannon in a tactical squad costs the same price as a one shot combi-bolter. Arm your squad that usually defends capture points with a lascannon (i.e. does not move much) and you have a fantastic anti tank platform. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2851671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 In my area I really don't worry about my Land Raiders it really seems that the other player has to throw everything at it to kill the thing. I had a Bloodthirster hitting a Land Raider for five turns before he finally wrecked it. I wanted to try the outflanking terminators in a land raider myself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2851699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 lascannons seem to be a certain 'flavour' for lack of a better word, some guys dont rate them others really like them.. myself i think they are golden, especially twin lascannons like on dreads and raiders etc.. to further what Thantoes said, the tac squad with lascannon is one of my favoured two builds. 10 men, lascannon, plasmagun or ten men, ML, flamer, combi-flamer, fist anyhoo getting back to the issue at hand, being able to outflank the raider would be very cool, id like if possible to stay with the scouts for a bit before commiting to the termies.. so for the time being lets assume outflanking it isnt an option tactically speaking.. as Idaho said i could reserve it and pop smoke when it arrives, which could work, if i dont get first turn im outflanking the speeders anyway (of which i want to run three instead of the big unit of bikes) which means all ive got on the table are my t-fires and snipers.. its then a case of pushing my luck on cover saves and hope one of the artillery pieces survives until reserves come on. im thinking unless im facing a 'gunline' the enemy will want to close ground a little so im not losing much by reserving the raider. ill try a few more games and see what i can make of it, i know a couple of guys that have dedicated anti-LR units like meatmans sterngaurd in a pod with 5 melta shots when they land, so reserving would save me that headache.. although IIRc he cleverly uses an empty second pod so he can counter that, however id rather face that unit with smoke than face it without ;) im thinking this as a next 'step' list khan 160 cassius 125 10 ccw scouts 165 -power fist land raider redeemer 265 -extra armour -multi-melta land speeder storm 65 -multi-melta 5 scouts -ccw -combi-melta, meltabombs 90 land speeder storm 65 -multi-melta 5 scouts -ccw -combi-melta, meltabombs 90 land speeder storm 60 -heavy flamer 5 scouts -ccw -powerfist, combi-flamer, meltabombs 115 10 snipers 200 -telion, ML 10 bolter scouts 150 -heavy bolter thunderfire cannon 100 thunderfire cannon 100 1750 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2851758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 ill try a few more games and see what i can make of it, i know a couple of guys that have dedicated anti-LR units like meatmans sterngaurd in a pod with 5 melta shots when they land, so reserving would save me that headache.. although IIRc he cleverly uses an empty second pod so he can counter that, however id rather face that unit with smoke than face it without :P I'm so crafty :D One idea you could do, is instead of combat scouts in a land raider, try claw terminators, and as the land raider would be a dedicated transport you could still outflank with it. Because that would probably let you get off a charge before they even have a chance to shoot the damn thing. Just an idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2851829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 so yes Khan has made it back into the first team, but also so has the land raider.. now the problem i have is keeping that land raider alive and that means eventually switching the t-fires for vindicators and adding in some dreadies.. but that is for the future (ive no doubt a new dex will come out and change things up again soon).. in the mean time, ive decided that my core will always be scouts.. telion and his snipers, the ccw dudes and the melta LSS torpedos, all of whom perform superbly oh and khan got himself another trophy, he took the head of commander farsight. the only other issue i have is whether or not to switch the ten ccw scouts at 175 points for 5 assault terms (mostly claws) for 200.. the issue isnt hitting power becuase the 2 Ics alone are awesome, plus the masses of scout attacks at I5, S5 with re-rolls.. its the fact that i can take the LR as a dedicated transport and outflank with it if necessary.. against hordes ill say the scouts are far superior to the terms, however against termies and some marine armies (like plague boys) the terms have the edge thoughts, opinions, ideas.. Your Tau foe did some things that I would consider do not do's Piranhas, as gun-ships, are inferior to both the Typhoon and Tornado speeders. This changes them from something killy into something else. But what is that something else? Skirmishers. A Mg is inferior to a MM and no way are Pulse carbines on par with a Heavy flamer. This is completely ignoring the Typhoon variant. So what is an inferior Tornado going to do other than get in the way? Nothing. And that is precisely its role. It moves blocks enemy transports. Especially the super-transports like Battlewagons and Land Raiders. A Piranha should always have a Dpod, giving it cover when >12" away. If Tau goes second, he doesn't have to deploy the Piranhas far-forwards. Which gave the Speeder storms an easy hit, so it seems. This will mean they are always getting cover, because of the Dpod. If Tau goes first, they can be deployed further forwards. Then they flat-out 24" right into the face of transports. You won't be able to get a meaningful ram on them, and they have a 3+ save against non-skimmers ramming them. So then you have to waste inches driving around them. Remember that the transport cannot come within 1" of them during movement. Now the rest of your army can either shoot at the Piranhas, who will be getting a 4+ save, or ignore them and shoot at the rest of the Tau. If the super-transport is still functioning [because they are the ones you really want to move-block the most] then you move the Piranha another 12" back in front of the super-transport. But this time they get to shoot their Mg within MELTA range.... Meanwhile, the rest of the Tau are firing into the regular transports, with Rail guns and Missile Pods. The do not shoot the super-transport as it is a hit and miss affair on av14, even with a Rail gun. Whenever a vehicles roll is close against an enemy, it is much better to not use the squadron rules. Typhoons in squadrons? Yes. Tornados in squadrons? No. Likewise for Piranhas. When you are pushing the unit into the lion's mouth, you don't want to make it easier for him to kill them with the squadron rules. +++ Onto the Scouts. I have used them in Crusader squads. Wanting the best bang for buck, I did mathhammer on them and the Initiates, both having pistol and sword, and the Marines getting preferred enemy. The Neophytes are actually just as killy, point for point, as the Initiates. Both in shooting and in mêlée. Interesting. So you choosing the Scouts as the escort for Khan certainly works on an offensive level. Against non-MEq. But if Khan and Cassius are bringing enough power weapon attacks, then maybe you don't need Clawnators.... One TEq death is the same as three Scouts dying to bolters. Which means you are losing 133% per TEq death as per three Scouts. But here is the other thing. For 10 transport slots, you can bring 200 pts of TEq but only 130 pts of Scout. Sometimes you just need more points per square inch, if you understand me....? +++ I would say, if you list is bringing enough anti-MEq already, go with the Scouts. If your list struggles against MEq, then bring the Terminators. Templars usually run a mix between Claw and Hammer. You don't want to get dreadlocked if you only have Claws, but furious charge litanies of battle Claws really are horrific on the charge :o +++ I don't think reserved and/or outflanking LR is a good idea. The thing costs so much that the deficit you get into by not having on table is not going to be made up in a couple of turns. Bad reserves rolls just lets your opponent have easier choices to make and focus on the Storms and TFires. I'd rather take a Phobos, lurk near the table-edge, and pewpew for a few turns with the tlLC, and keep out of reach of Meltas, than have the more killy Redeemer, and hope that it comes on in time. Also, if a Redeemer is off table, trying to avoid my Las cannons and Meltas, and I don't have to get into your table half, sweet! I'll just use my sneaky Tau trick of contesting your Objective with a Speeder/Piranha/etc. and avoid your LR, Hero, Unit altogether, and use my larger force versus your smaller force, and really, I should win. Imo, reserves is to mess up your opponents plans. If I have Khan, I think it is far better to "threat" him into deploying how I want with, say, one unit of three MM Trikes, than getting carried away with outflanking and using it more than that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2852225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 A Piranha should always have a Dpod, giving it cover when >12" away. If Tau goes second, he doesn't have to deploy the Piranhas far-forwards. Which gave the Speeder storms an easy hit, so it seems. This will mean they are always getting cover, because of the Dpod. Dpod has no bearing on my torpedo teams though, between scout moves and turn one movement im sitting about 2" away with both the speeder and diesmbarked unit.. most of the damage was done in the assault phase with auto-hitting grenades and powerfist attacks, a disruption pod wont work at that close range, and given the scout move rules it wouldnt matter how far back he set them up, unless he had another unit infront of them... with scout i can move to 12" away regardless of where they are. Imo, reserves is to mess up your opponents plans. If I have Khan, I think it is far better to "threat" him into deploying how I want with, say, one unit of three MM Trikes, than getting carried away with outflanking and using it more than that. deploying on the table does get me closer to the opponent for sure, even fast melta cant down a LR turn one (cant get to half range) so the only real concern is drop podding units and other peoples use of my soon to be patented melta torpedoes :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2852354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 A Piranha should always have a Dpod, giving it cover when >12" away. If Tau goes second, he doesn't have to deploy the Piranhas far-forwards. Which gave the Speeder storms an easy hit, so it seems. This will mean they are always getting cover, because of the Dpod. Dpod has no bearing on my torpedo teams though, between scout moves and turn one movement im sitting about 2" away with both the speeder and diesmbarked unit.. most of the damage was done in the assault phase with auto-hitting grenades and powerfist attacks, a disruption pod wont work at that close range, and given the scout move rules it wouldnt matter how far back he set them up, unless he had another unit infront of them... with scout i can move to 12" away regardless of where they are. Imo, reserves is to mess up your opponents plans. If I have Khan, I think it is far better to "threat" him into deploying how I want with, say, one unit of three MM Trikes, than getting carried away with outflanking and using it more than that. deploying on the table does get me closer to the opponent for sure, even fast melta cant down a LR turn one (cant get to half range) so the only real concern is drop podding units and other peoples use of my soon to be patented melta torpedoes :P Obviously you are very proficient with this tactic, and so I don't want to sound like I am dismissing your tactics :) With Scout move, it says a normal move, but must remain 12" away. Does that mean the Storm can go 12" or up to 24" with a flat-out? If it is the former, that means the Piranhas have to be 37" away from the Storm, which is doable only if the Storms have not deployed in the middle of the table. If it is the latter, then a 24" then 12" move is very strong, when combined with MM or Mg. Either way, this means the Tau players needs those other skirmishers, the Kroot, to intervene. If the Storm cannot come within 12" of the Kroot, then has a 12" move for the passengers to still be able to fire, then that can stop the Storm from hitting the Piranhas/whatevers with MELTA and/or an assault. Hopefully, the Kroot can be deployed in cover, and still have enough room for the Piranhas to deploy 12" behind them. You can practise this for yourself. Set up a table. Then deploy your Scouts. Then, with full knowledge of what Scouts, Storms and Scout moves can do, set up the Tau fire-base in whatever spot you want. Then deploy the Kroot so the Storms cannot get 12" from the fire-base. Remember that if Ultras are going first, the Tau are deploying second, and so should be able to stop that alpha-strike, to some degree. If you have HF on the Storm, then yeah, the Kroot are ruined. Then the alpha-strike has been executed, and the whole of the Tau army, minus whatever shooting casualties have been inflicted, can gang up on them, which should be enough. Ideally, the Piranhas have been deployed so that they cannot even be seen by the rest of your shooting, but that is more a fingers-crossed thing :P Kroot are there to die. Is that all they can achieve? No. They are quite decent little bird-men. But the opponent is always going to kill something and so it might as well be the small compartmentalised Kroot unit at 70 pts, than a Crisis Team or Broadside Battery. Piranhas are also there to die. Tau are not actually as shooty as Guard, but if they can move-block with the Piranhas, they increase the number of turns the can shoot for, and combined with JSJ movement from the Suits, can make the battlefield 'longer' so to speak. As you can imagine, full Jumper lists from BA are a real monkey to deal with *extremely sad face* Deathwing can also be bad, but because they are slow and even smaller in number, they are easier to deal with. Plus dead by Thunder hammer is just as dead by Chainsword, for Tau :) Tau fight like an onion, as uninspiring as that poetic image might be ;) Now onto the second part. You have deployed the LR. It will move 12" in your T1. That means the Piranhas can be deployed 24" from that point, or 36" from the LR deployment. If the Kroot are deployed 24" from the LR, that means the Piranhas will be 12" behind them. This should stop the Storms from alpha-striking the Piranhas, as they cannot Scout-move within 12" of the Kroot. By that I mean, you shouldn't be getting a MELTA shot on them [though with them being open-topped and melta still being ap1, that is a mean +2 on any pens....] and they should be getting the Dpod in the mix. Not perfect, but as good as can be done. Dive hawkmen, dive. Die, bird-men, die! For the Greater Good, naturally. Hopefully what I am saying is both helpful for any budding Tau players, but also for you to have in mind. Just as you have noted that the Storm frontTM tactic works well from its sheer cheekiness and people not anticipating it, the Greater OnionTM can similarly catch out people. I am getting carried away now. But you can use either of my jingly names, I don't charge much for them.... There are some pros to having a limited palette to work from, such as more reliance on tactics. Which I guess is why you, Thade and Idaho like to steer away from Hammernators, etc. Use your brain, young man! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2852393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 tau tactics are pretty interesting, its probably why i like them, they arent a simple army to use.. emperor knows ive learned alot from your links and hopefully my tau army will shine through one day :) in this case i stole initiative, so the tau player deployed first and i got the alpha strike anyway.. but yes anyone who knows about my storms can counter them.. sometimes.. and yes they can move flat out in the scout move ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2852397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 but yes anyone who knows about my storms can counter them.. sometimes.. and yes they can move flat out in the scout move :) Even then, it's more difficult then you would expect, especially without infiltrators or scouts of your own. Best advice I can give is: Steal the initiative! You're welcome :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2853238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Scouts. Volume over quality. Your list has more in it than most basic builds even though you have build specialised units (this normally reduces an army size) Marshall is correct in saying the tau player made a mistake, however you played well. Because your enemy made a mistake does not make your selection un-sound. You know how to use this list. Keep it. I know what I would do against your list but it doesnt mean it will get me the win or even work. I dont think reserves will serve you well. A good deployment will give you better results. A common mistake is to deploy a LRR in the most aggresive fashion possible and charge forth. Your LRR will die every game. You may as well swap it for a rhino. Deploy the LRR protected and attack protected. I use a single LRC supported only by speeders and whirlwinds (hardly adding to any AT swamping tactic) and it lives roughly 80% of my games to the final turn. The thing I like most about the LR is its ability to control the speed of the game because of its AV14. It is not a transport like a rhino. It is more than a delivery tank. It is a control tank enabling you to close but to also time when you are ready to strike. You can get close and hold. You can force the commitment and then break it. A rhino will never force this level of commitment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2854862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I dont think reserves will serve you well. A good deployment will give you better results. A common mistake is to deploy a LRR in the most aggressive fashion possible and charge forth. Your LRR will die every game. You may as well swap it for a rhino. Deploy the LRR protected and attack protected. I use a single LRC supported only by speeders and whirlwinds (hardly adding to any AT swamping tactic) and it lives roughly 80% of my games to the final turn. The thing I like most about the LR is its ability to control the speed of the game because of its AV14. It is not a transport like a rhino. It is more than a delivery tank. It is a control tank enabling you to close but to also time when you are ready to strike. You can get close and hold. You can force the commitment and then break it. A rhino will never force this level of commitment. Oh goody, we agree on stuff :P I am with you on the LR usage. Because some 250 pts have been spent on it, then 200 pts on the unit, plus any ICs, you have spent a quarter to a third of your points on this basket full of eggs. Being cavalier with that kind of investment seems naive. Yeah, it'll probably wreck face on T2. But other times it'll come unstuck. Then what? Also, do you really need to be wrecking face by T2? "I can get off a T2 assault, therefore I must...." :huh: I was inspired by Darkseer's usage of the LR Phobos, with its tlLC, and Wolf Guard Termies with combi-weapons and power weapons. Especially as a Templar player, it is very easy to ram that LRC + Hammernators with AAC right into your opponents forces. Darkseer used a bit more guile, got value out of the tlLCs, didn't lose the vehicle [at all, iIrc] and then after his opponent had committed their forces/deathstar/etc. then the Wolf Guard gave them plasma and i4 death. I had actually written off the LR Phobos as a confused piece of rubbish since, well, well before the much more harmonious LRC came out in C:Armageddon. So touché to Darkseer for that. I still think the LRC is the best of the three. The Redeemer can be immobilised and its flamers can become near useless [unless you break down in a good position] and it resembles a T-Rex with its foot trapped - those near vestigial arms aren't going to do much. At least the Hurricane bolters can reach out and hurt infantry. +++ Whirlwinds. You find them better than AutoBolter Preds? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2854906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 For sure. Whirlwinds require a specific and dedicated response due to their indirect fire ability. Most armies vulnerable to a whirlwind lack the means to formulate this response or require a significant cost to do so. Additionally they provide sound results against mech when forcing disembarking. I originally employed them to counter those harassment units like scouts/lootas/pathfinders etc which they excell at and proove their worth in this role alone. I don't disagree with you in general my friend. You present some good concepts/advice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2854918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 the thing i found about the LRR was the lack of chances to fire the flamestorm cannons, i didnt wat to rush ahead into LOS of his railguns so i held back and didnt get a chance to barbecue some fish heads, i dont think ill swap for an LRC though, the unit inside will beat any basic infantry unit right upto TEQ (not an uber unit tho IMO) so id rather have the AP3 flamers for dealing with trouble units like veterans. i get what you mean about not beng too aggressive with them, in this game i sent it up the flank that my LSS team had hit hard and then turned into the bulk of his army from the side, even if he did try and fire everything at me, i would be getting cover saves from his own units.. this is where deploying last has its benefits i suppose i like whirlwinds but prefer the thunderfires, the 4 templates can have a potentially higher damage output than the one whirlwind template, however each has its own drawbacks. im a big fan of popping transports and shelling the heck out of the now bunched up disembarked unit.. always good times :huh: edit: would i be wiser to run 8 cw scouts and use the phobos insteadof the redeemer? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2854920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I prefer the "confused" Landraider myself. It grants decent firepower in a game dominated by vehicles and doesn't encourage you to rush forward like a loony into melta range or premature commitment. In your list, which has limited AP2 firepower and range, a pair of Lascannons does very well. And think of it this way; if you are rushing a Redeemer or Crusader forwards 12" to get close you won't be firing with those two vehicles much, particularly if using smoke, so the Lascannons aren't being wasted either! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2855004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 i guess its down to playtesting now.. thanks fellas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2855057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thantoes Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 edit: would i be wiser to run 8 cw scouts and use the phobos insteadof the redeemer? Issue with the Phobos is that its not a standard GW LR and may cause you some issues. While the majority of players wont have an issue with you using forge world you will get some. I dont have an issue with the Phobos but if you come with an Achillies then I will call shenanigans as its the most broken vehicle in existence. *edit* actually, which is the Phobos? I was thinking of the Prometheus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2855069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 phobos = godhammer with TL lascannons.. basic raider Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2855077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thantoes Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 phobos = godhammer with TL lascannons.. basic raider Really? I have never heard it called that, only the Godhammer. And yes, I am a HUGE fan of the Godhammer!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2855085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 phobos = godhammer with TL lascannons.. basic raider Really? I have never heard it called that, only the Godhammer. And yes, I am a HUGE fan of the Godhammer!!! Godhammer is the type of Lascannon on the Raider the Land Raider its self is called a Phobos pattern. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2855092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 i thought id resurect this old thread, for those who have seen it ive been messing around (alot) with adding khan back into my scout lists, the thread is Here anyway due to not having a command squad on bikes, i had to make due for a game i had last night and i kitbashed a squadon foot and ran them in the raider.. heres the batrep Blood angels Vs Space marine scouts BA list HQ 100 pts – Librarian Power armour, Bolt pistol, Frag and Krak grenades, Psychic hood, Force weapon, Psychic powers; Shield of Sanguinius, unleash rage ELITES 50 pts – Sanguinary priest 220 pts – 5 Assault Terminators 4 Thunder hammer storm shield 250 pts – Land Raider Redeemer with multi melta TROOPS 150 pts – 4 Assault marines one melta gun and sergeant power fist infernus pistol 55 pts – Razorback lascannon and twin linked plasma gun 140 pts – 4 Assault marines one melta gun and sergeant power weapon infernus pistol 55 pts – Razorback lascannon and twin linked plasma gun 115 pts – 4 Assault marines and sergeant power weapon 55 pts – Razorback twin linked lascannon FAST ATTACK 145 pts – Baal Predator assault cannon heavy bolter 145 pts – Baal Predator assault cannon heavy bolter HEAVY SUPPORT 135 pts – Auto lascannon Predator 135 pts – Auto lascannon Predator Total 1750 Scouts list khan 160 command squad 215 -apothecary -company champion -storm shield, power fist -storm shield, power weapon -storm shield land raider crusader 250 land speeder storm 65 -multi-melta 5 scouts -ccw -combi-melta, meltabombs 90 land speeder storm 65 -multi-melta 5 scouts -ccw -combi-melta, meltabombs 90 10 scout bikers 265 -fist -3GL 10 bolter scouts 175 -fist -HB 10 scout snipers 200 -telion -ML 10 ccw scouts 175 -power fist -combi-flamer 1750 straight away im concerned by the sheer number of vehicles, given the low number of anti-tank weapons in my army it could be a big challenge I rolled for game and mission type, got pitched battle, annihalation (Kps) Blood angels won roll off and elected to go second Deployment http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/003-1.jpg http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/004-1.jpg Blood angels kept the razorback and embarked troops in reserve and castled up with his four predators and land raider redeemer All scout elements moved forward with their scout moves, the land speeder storm on the left flew wide to try and break through the predator castle to reach the LRR Scouts turn one The land raider crusader moved forward 12” next to the close combat scouts hiding behind the ruins. The scout bikes swung around the flank to take on the rearmost baal predator, the centre land speeder storm pushed forward and disembarked the scouts in front of the second baal predator whilst the speeder on the left managed to clear the terrain with its move to get within striking range of the LRR, it too disembarked its scouts. http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/005-1.jpg http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/006-1.jpg In shooting the BA librarian casts shield of sanguinius The combi melta from the centre storm squad glanced the baal predator but only shakes it. The land speeder storm hit’s the centre predator with a 6 and then rolls a double 6 for penetration, however it passes its 5+ shield cover save. The combi melta from the storm squad on the left blows up the land raider redeemer, one terminator inside fails his save but is rescued by FNP. The crusaders twin linked assault cannons hit the lead predator taking off a lascannon sponson, however Telion using VOE on the ML still manages to miss his intended target. In assault the centre storm scouts multi-charge the baal predator and the predator next to it whilst the scout bikes charge the baal predator on the right flank. In the centre the two scouts in combat with the basic predator manage to cook off its munitions and blow it up, killing one of their own scouts in the process but also catching and killing an enemy terminator in the same explosion, the rest of the squad destroy the baals main turret weapon (twin assault cannons). On the right the scout bikes blow up the other baal predator killing one of their own in the resulting explosion. End of scouts turn on http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/008-1.jpg Blood angels turn 1 The terminators separate from the priest and librarian and head towards the scout bikers whilst the Ics move towards the storm scout squad on the left http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/009-1.jpg All shooting is a wash, with all shots missing their targets or failing to cause any damage In assault the 4 assault terminators charge the scout bikers, they lose one of their number to the scouts I4 attacks before killing 5 of the bikers in return, the remaining bikers break and flee. On the opposite side the librarian and priest charge the 5 storm scouts killing 4, the lone scout sergeant wounds the librarian but he makes his saving throw, the sergeant passes his Ld test and holds firm. Scouts turn 2 The 4 fleeing scouts bikes (sergeant and 3 GL) are forced to fall back further as the terminators are still hot on their heels, the two land speeders move into position to shoot at the remaining predators, the 4 storm scouts move up to charge the damaged baal again, all other units hold position awaiting the arrival of reserves. http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/010-1.jpg Shooting starts with the librarian again casting shield of sanguineous, all shooting either misses or is saved from his 5+ shield saves, the only exception being Telions who wanting to make up for his last poor showing guides his ML armed scout and destroys a HB sponson on the last remaining baal predator In assault the 5 scouts charge the baal with grenades and a melt bomb handy, despite only needing 4’s to hit, they fluff all their attacks, the scout sergeant is finished off by the librarian in combat. Blood angels turn 2 All blood angel reserves arrive, the twin lascannon razorback containing 5 assault troops with Pw come in on the left flank aiming to clear the last few scout bikes, the two las/plas razorbacks come in on the left, the two Ics split off and embark on a razorback each. The terminators head towards the storm scouts in the centre of his lines http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/011-1.jpg Shooting begins with the twin lascannon razorback on the left shooting at the scout bikes, if he kills one its 25% casualties and they automatically fall back, he hits then wounds but they go to ground and make the 6+ save. Both las/plas razrobacks fire at the land speeder storms, one fluffs his shots the other penetrates and stuns the land speeder storm on the left. Making up for the missed shots the baals single remaining heavy bolter fires at the storm in the centre getting immobilised and weapon destroyed results. The predator fires all weapons at the scout bikers, who make another 6+ save, however they still take one casualty and are forced to fall back again. In assault the terminators make short work of the 4 storm scouts. Scouts turn 3 The 3 scout bikes are finally able to rally and head towards the twin lascannon razorback on the right flank, with both storms out of action (one permanently) the rest of the lines hold steady waiting for the blood angels to commit http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/012-1.jpg In shooting the scout bikes grenade launchers penetrate the razorback and destroy the twin lascannons and telion again guides his ML armed scout to wreck the predator in the centre at the back, all other shooting misses or fails to cause any damage Blood angels turn 3 The two las/plas razorbacks move further along the left flank setting up shots against the land raider crusader, the terminators move to assault the stunned storm speeder, the damaged razorback on the left disembarks its assault squad and moves around behind the scout bikers, the assault troops themselves move to assault range, the baal moves forward. http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/013-1.jpg http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/014-1.jpg The baal kicks of shooting by causing two wounds to the scout bikers, they again elect to go to ground saving one of the wounds, the assault squad fires its pistols at the two remaining bikers, they cause a further two wounds killing the sergeant, the lone biker fails his Ld and falls back. The larcenous fail to scratch the land raider crusader In assault the terminators destroy the storm. Scout turn 4 With the blood angels showing their soft underbelly I decide to throw everything forwards, with the terminators unable to consolidate after destroying the storm, both the bolter scouts and close combat scouts move into assault range. The last surviving scout bike again rallies and moves around behind the damaged razorback intent of some rear armour shots, the land raider crusader moves 12” towards his razorbacks on the left flank. The librarian again cast shield of sanguineous but my twin assault cannons from the crusader still managed to destroy the lascannon from his ride, the snipers shot at the assault squad but only manage two kills, all shooting against the termies fail to cause any casualties. The scout bike fails to damage the razroback with shooting so elects to charge, but due to needing 6’s fails to cause any damage, the scouts in the centre mobbed the 3 thunder hammer terminators. http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/016-1.jpg WAAAAGGGHHH… oops wrong army ^_^ The close combat scouts caused 6 wounds, killing one, the bolter scouts followed suit causing 8 wounds, killing another, the thunder hammer terminator hit back but failed to cause any wounds before being brought down by two combined power fists. blood angels turn 4 The las/plas razorbacks move across the back lines to the right hoping to avoid the crusader, the assault squad on the left moved to charge the lone scout bike whilst the wounded baal predator reversed behind cover providing safety from Telions ML. http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/017-1.jpg Plasma from the librarians razorback shot at and killed two assault scouts In assault the 3 assault marines kill the last scout bike and take cover behind their damaged razorback Scouts turn 5 The close combat scouts move towards the assault marines, they are unable to close the gap to assault but aim to combine fire with the bolter scouts to finish them. The crusader moves 12” down the flank and unloads the command squad in front of the priests razorback. Again the librarian casts shield of sanguinius which saves the penetrating hit caused by the twin assault cannon from the crusader, this means I would have to assault the vehicle with my command squad, not the result I wished for. Telion who buoyed by his previous success with the ML fires at the damaged razorback wrecking it, fire from the assault and bolter scouts kills all three remaining assault marines on that flank. In assault khan and the assault squad charge the razorback, destroying its lascannon and shaking it. Blood angels turn 5 The two remaining assault squads with librarian and priest attached disembarked to assault the command squad, their razorbacks moving onto the hill in the centre, the razorback able to fire its plasma brings down the crippled storm. Both assault squads are each carrying a meltagun and melt pistol and unload at the command squad killing the storm shield veteran and the power fist armed veteran before charging in to assault. http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/019-1.jpg The librarian cast his rage power giving his squad preferred enemy. Khan kills one blood angel but takes two wounds for his troubles, the power weapon armed veteran is also killed but between the storm shields, power armour and FNP the rest of the squad survive to strike back. The company champion targets the priest in single combat and takes his head for the honour of the tenth. Khan and the command squad lose combat, fail their Ld test and fall back 11” http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/020-1.jpg We rolled for end of game, a 1 is rolled and we tot up kill points. Result is 8 to 5 Kps victory to the scouts. 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Captain Idaho Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Text book alpha striking! Awesome stuff! If he went first what would have been your plan, just out of interest? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2883658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 (replying to the old Lascannon discussion, because I can) I'm not sure why I disagree with the "popular" consensus so often, but I love Lascannons, hate Multimeltas, and am relatively apathetic towards Meltaguns and Missile Launchers. Lascannons have the range and the massive killing power to deal with everything and actually have the range to reach out and do it every turn. Multimeltas are AWESOME.....except that they're stupidly short ranged and Heavy Weapons, which renders them damn near to totally useless... If they were Assault Weapons they'd be gold. Missile Launchers can be handy. Decent for killing a lot of the weaker vehicles and okay at knocking holes in weaker GEQ squads, but they realy can't deal with AV14 and have a rough time with AV13....and knocking little holes in GEQ type squads isn't the most useful thing in the world. For killing MEQs I'll take a Plasma Cannon. For killing vehicles I'll take the Lascannon. For killing GEQ I'll take Heavy Bolters. That said, I kinda hate the Godhammer Land Raider. The two Twin-Linked Lascannons just seem like such a waste for the possible Land Raider weapon options. If you go by the Prometheus' assumption that the sponsons can each handle two Twin-Linked heavy weapons, then why not have a "Land Raider Epimetheus", or something, armed with 4 Twin-Linked Lascannons? THAT would be totally worth it. For Lascannons, the Annihilator just makes waaaaay more sense to me. The coolest Land Raider ever would be one where each sponson had two Cyclone Launchers. When I can fire 8 Missiles per turn, THAT is when I like Missile Launchers. Seriously awesome. That could be overkill tho. Two Twin-Linked Cyclone Launchers and some manner of hull-mounted doohickey would be cool too. While it's probably not as good at killing AV14 as the Godhammer, those Cyclone Launchers would ruin everyone else's lives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2883722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Definitely agree with the first part of your post TEC, though only partly the second part. Allow me to promote healthy, light hearted and friendly discussion in explaining why: A Landraider as an objective camper or artillery unit is far too inefficient, especially as you can get a Predator with Lascannons for cheaper and more weapons. However, as a more cautious transport vehicle which can shoot holes in opponents and deliver a hard boiled cargo when required, it is all but perfect. I believe the Landraider with Lascannons is actually very "Ultramarine". It does almost everything quite well (even infantry will take 5 shots a turn, so although it's weakest capacity it is still far from useless). It is the epitome of flexible, just like Sternguard and Calgar's rules. I know it isn't to everyone's playstyle, but I love those 2 Lascannons! Finishing off I would say I agree fully with your last point though. Cyclone Landraiders would be fun, with perhaps a hull mounted Twin Linked Multi-melta in place of it's Heavy Bolters, to make up for the lack of heavy armour killing potential. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236587-interesting-game-learned-a-few-things/#findComment-2883744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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