Cptn. Palladorus Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Multimeltas are great IF you can get them into a piece of hard terrain all the way up near the front of your deployment zone, or even out past it with a first turn move, and present a few other juicy targets so they don't get shot to bits. That 24" range actually equals out to a larger than 48" circle where tanks and heavy infantry dare not tread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 If he went first what would have been your plan, just out of interest? run to the next room and hide ;) he had alot of tanks with lascannons, so i would have no choice but to outflank otherwise my LSS and raider would have been shot up early.. i probably would have left my snipers on the board in cover, give him something to move towards, maybe my bolter scouts too.. Telion with the VOE on the launcher made a big mess of the enemies tanks, im really glad is stuck him with the snipers and not the bolters as had been discussed in the army list thread. if there were less heavy weapons, i might have risked keeping my vehciles on the board and trying for cover saves for turn one. it was interesting becuase he chose 2nd based off my HQ choice of Khan, there is another chap locally who runs a white scar bike army and he always outflanks and tries to grab 2nd turn so he has the final turn of the game.. he thought my army would work in a similar way and i suppose in some small part it is similar, but not the same ;) my 'set up' meant putting 3 models on the board, which also meant he didnt really know how to counter me, i set up my LSS centrally which allows me to redeploy them with scout move, they are very hard to counter, he tried to castle up his redeemer, but i still got to it edit: ive also set my mind firmly on the redeemeras a better choice than the crusader, its ten points cheaper so i can grab the MM upgrade for 'free' (relatively speaking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Ah he made a mistake of assuming you would use your list the same as the stereotype would eh? :lol: Would have been interesting if he went first because you would have used the list completely different. Ironically, probably closer to how he thought you would with the reserves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 Ah he made a mistake of assuming you would use your list the same as the stereotype would eh? :lol: Would have been interesting if he went first because you would have used the list completely different. Ironically, probably closer to how he thought you would with the reserves! yeah that was the thing, he was expecting me to outflank so he went second, ironically if he would have went first i would have outflanked.. but i think he knew that too.. so played his odds by castling with his preds and reserving the troops and raozrbacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 If he was going to put stuff on the table he should have used his Troops and Razorbacks to act as a skirmish screen for the battle tanks. I dunno I still would have went first. If you had outflanked he could at least be in a position to weather the "alpha strikes" coming from the edge of the table as it would come on in piecemeal etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 If he was going to put stuff on the table he should have used his Troops and Razorbacks to act as a skirmish screen for the battle tanks. I dunno I still would have went first. If you had outflanked he could at least be in a position to weather the "alpha strikes" coming from the edge of the table as it would come on in piecemeal etc. yeah thats how id run against me too, but as we said earlier, he was coloured by previous khan experiences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Good show. Critique. Hard to knock you on the back of a win but.. Given the way first turn was decided.. Super super aggressive. You still had some 'hesitation' in your deployment. I know you kept your foot troops back, and I agree with this 100%. But you know you are given first turn and 99% chance of him not stealing it from you (not deciding to roll and even if he did its slim odds) I would have put the bikers in the centre and flanked the LSS (switch them). You saw his armour wall castle and the preds are top priority at this early point in the game. You ran a risk in attacking the flank of the armour wall with the 10 bikers because you ended up charging only one tank with 10 grenades and two tanks with 5 grenades. A more aggressive move would have seen the 10 bikes multicharge all three of the lead tanks and the LSS charging the flank tank and one LSS going for the LRR as you did. The TH's still would have gone for your bikes and the result much the same but you may have 'freed up' your support and used the snipers on the marines instead of a single ML on tanks every turn. Good to see the old boy on the table taking heads. LRR is much more fun than a LRC. Run it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 actually thats a very good point, those bikes could have multi-charged 3 preds in one turn, honestly hadnt thought of that the problem with snipers targetting marines was there was precious few to shoot at, the one turn it was possible thats exactly what i did, although i rolled poorly that turn (sods law i guess).. no-one can deny VoE on a ML is dangerous, i was knocking bits off tanks every turn that thing fired. im playing him again this week, letting him go first, we are both also tweeking our lists a bit, hes ging back to the death co and chapy instead of the termies and priest and im going with the LRR with MM (so much better than LRC) and a couple of meltaguns on the command squad.. i expect it to be a much tougher game tbh, but outflank is my life line. i plan to leave the ground units, bolters and snipers in play on the flanks and draw him towards them (and my outflanking units).. he could try to outshoot them but in cover i should be ok (G2G if i have to) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 On Jawa's blog, Jawa said his Scouts were real stars for him, which is interesting, considering not only is he using them in concert with Marines, but Marines+ in the form of Blood Angels with FNP and/or Furious charge, etc. *strokes chin* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 On Jawa's blog, Jawa said his Scouts were real stars for him, which is interesting, considering not only is he using them in concert with Marines, but Marines+ in the form of Blood Angels with FNP and/or Furious charge, etc. *strokes chin* i was talking to the BA chap after the game and he was pondering the usage of his stormravens, in those cases ccw scouts with priests have the same damage output as marines vs MEQ+ and the big flying boxes keep them safe from shooting.. BA priests really giv thier scouts an extra oomph that i can only get with khan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 had a 2vs2 game on thursday evening, was a blast, tried out a new hardcore scout list it was only 1500, i normally run 1750 khan (160) cassius (125) 10 ccw scouts (175) -fist -combi-flamer land raider redeemer (265) -EA -MM vindy (115) vindy (115) LSS with MM (65) 5 scouts (90) -combi-melta -meltabombs LSS with MM (65) 5 scouts (90) -combi-melta -meltabombs 10 snipers (200) -Telion -ML 1465 to make it 1750 id probably add a tooled up unit of ten scout bikes with cluster mines 3GL and a fist full batrep can be found Here short version is that the two vindies really take the heat off the redeemer, they only really got one shot off in the game but it was a game changer. khan cassius and ten ccw scouts are EVIL!!! they now strike fear into the hearts of my gaming buddies (not sure if thats good tbh) khan killed tybros the red wake with his insta kill ability, his head now adorns my trophy rack. the twins continue to be very good at stirring thing up early game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Do you want comments on the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Do you want comments on the game? yeah, im pretty inexpereinced with tanks, so any advice would be welcomed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Good results are hard to improve. Your match ups were good and your partnered list complimented your own well. Actually, your list would have went well with any of the other lists whilst they didnt really compliment each other well at all. With your tanks - did you ever use smoke? first turn when you powered forward would have been the ideal time. The vindicators more so. Your opponent had drop pods. Smoke would have been more than appropriate to use first turn. I know the vindi's took alot of the heat but moving them better increases longivity. I am not suggesting you to deny the enemy them as a target, (why did you deploy long ways on the table? or is it juist a massive table?) but using terrain to restrict effective shots is key. As you played it, the vindicators had 0 protection from any shots fired at them. You can use a LR or any other vehicle to provide a 'shadow' for them to hide in. This gives you a cover save AND restricts shots from obtuse angles. Dont completely hide them like you guys did with the razors, but have enough behind them to get a 4+ whilst still tempting the rouge shot from the base line. From behind this terrain feature a vindicator is a tough vehicle to shift and would have been in range of anything barring the preds on the base line. The terrain feature in the centre would have been perfect to add protection to either a Vindi or LR but you drove around it. It seems a vindi might have been able to pull off a 3+ cover save in this position? The preds on the base line may have had LOS but would have been truely in the front arc. The LOS they did have would have been onto the side armour instantly giving you a 3+ whilst retaining AV13. Does your opponent shoot at AV14 with a lascannon with a 4+ cover (smoke) or a Vindi with a 3+ cover? neither is attactive. With tanks, you can increase their longevity by considering placement. Never get them closer than they need to be and use terrain as much as you can. Always move them. Always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 thanks for the feedback, i definately need as much advice as i can get.. i just ordered two vindies and a redeemer from wayland, and now my butt hurts... :) my BA partner had the shield of sanguinius in the centre redeemer, that way everything within 12" got a 5+ cover save so we didnt feel the need to 'hide' any of the vehicles, i did actually shoot smoke greandes on turn one, but as my luck goes they failed every time i rolled for the cover save. the reason we played longways was becuaase we were running a mission from battle mission book, it was he necron "implacable advance" mission, basically meant everyone had stubborn (didnt stop my scouts from running though) just a quick Q, might make me sound dumb, but how does a vehicle get a 3+ cover save, i thought it was a 4+ only? also how do i keep AV13 at side armour shots?? im really new to vehciles, as anyone who plays my chaos army will attest to, i make a few basic mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 3+ cover saves are given when the firer can only see a facing of the vehicle that they are not "in". Said another way, the only facing the attacking model can see is the front of the vehicle when they are in the side arc. Its a bit hard to put into words, but easy to see when you have an example on a board. This is one of those obscure rules, and it can be found at the bottom of the shooting at vehicles/cover section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 You can only get a 3+ cover save with a vehicle from the SM dex through careful placement and playing the angles. A vehicle gets a 3+ cover save when being fired apon from a direction under the following circumstances: 1) The vehicle is obsured (cover save) 2) the firing model cant see the facing it would be firing at determined by its current position (firing arc) Ie. The pred is in the front arc of the vindicator and would normally shoot at front armour, however the predator can only see the side armour of the vindicator. 3) You retain the AV 13 if the model firing is in the front arc. You have to position the vehicle using terrain to block complete LOS to the vehicle's facing otherwise considered to be in the target arc. If they can see any of this facing you cant claim a 3+ cover With careful placement you can manipulate cover and angles to get a 3+. I only recommend playing this tactic V static threats such as Preds and Devs (and the counter parts in other dex) otherwise a mobile threat can move to reduce this tactic and even move into your side armour arc making it worse than just giving front armour shots. It works very well with vehicle like rhinos because it doesnt matter if you give away a side armour shot if you have the chance at getting a 3+ The Badie can see the side of the tank but not the front. The Badie can still see the tank but its shots are deemed to hit front armour but provide a 3+ to the tank. X (Badie) --------------WALL------------------------- ____ | | | | | | TANK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 ah i understand, i missed that part of the rules :) learn something new everyday.. but yup that would have worked with that central ruins, it was big enough to obscure the front arc completely. food for thought for next time though. thanks fellas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 im revisiting this old thread becuase i have two 'tournament level' practice games with my scout army on saturday. the first against a GK army with a big unit of pallies, the second against the new crons. im taking my infantry heavy scout army Khan chaplain 10 ccw scouts, fist, combi-flamer 10 bolter scouts, HB, fist 10 snipers, Telion, ML 10 scout bikes, fist, 3GL LSS with MM 5 scouts with combi-melta, meltabombs LSS with MM 5 scouts with combi-melta, meltabombs command squad, 4 x plasmaguns thunderfire cannon thunderfire cannon that lot comes in at exactly 1750, id love to find room for cluster mines but cant, i do think however that the cw squads combi-flamer will become a combi-melta before too long ill let you chaps know how the tenth get on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 right-o i have the army lists fore my two opponents, im looking for any insight into the necron army as ive not faced the new army yet. 1745 Necrons HQ Trazyn the Infinite - [255] - Catacomb Command Barge Royal Court - [60] - Harbinger of Despair w/Veil of Darkness TROOPS 20 Necron Warriors - [260] 20 Necron Warriors - [260] 20 Necron Warriors - [260] ELITES C'tan Shard - [225] - Grand Illusion FAST ATTACK 5 Scarab Swarms - [75] 5 Scarab Swarms - [75] 5 Scarab Swarms - [75] HEAVY SUPPORT Monolith - [200] GREY KNIGHTS Draigo. Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with 3 Servo Skulls, Lvl 1 Psyker, Force Sword and Psychic Communion. Henchman Squad: 1 Mystic. 4 Acolytes with Boltguns. 10 Paladins: 2 with Psycannon and Sword. 2 with Psycannon and Halberd. 2 with Sword. 2 with Halberd. 2 with Hammer. 10 Strike Marines with Psybolt Ammo and 2 Psycannons. 10 Strike Marines with Psybolt Ammo and 2 Psycannons. Psyfleman: 135pts Psyfleman: 135pts Total: 1749pts ^^pretty nasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 You should smash that Necron list fairly easily. Your melta weapons can now pulp the Monolith without trouble, the C'tan is slow enough to ignore for the most part and will die to Bolters and Sniper Rifles, and the Warriors can be thrown off the table in a single sweeping advance. Ignore the Command Barge for the most part, since it is pretty rubbish with a model without a power weapon. In fact, Trazyn the Infinite is actually a rubbish character choice in any army as far as I can see, since a simple Over Lord can do his job better. The hardest part of this game will be the Scarabs. However, S6 Thunderfire shots should wipe out entire units in a single turn, so just make sure your placement of them is good and you should be golden. The Grey Knight list vs your tournament list... I foresee big problems against that list. You can kill off everything except the Paladins really, who will probably remove a unit a turn. Best advice is wipe out everything else as best you can then hopefully claim the most objectives and avoid Draigo and his mates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 he did say the necron list wasnt a tournament one, but a new dex is usually the one to catch you out.. thanks for the tips.. so a monolith is easier to kill? what changed? I foresee big problems against that list. You can kill off everything except the Paladins really, who will probably remove a unit a turn. Best advice is wipe out everything else as best you can then hopefully claim the most objectives and avoid Draigo and his mates. yeah draigowing is nasty, had he not had driago i wouldnt be as worried, but he makes them twice as durable by soaking up those single shot melta weapons (the only ones i have).. he also usually deepstrikes the strike marines to make sure he gets a good turn of shooting with them, not a bad tactic but means they might not show til turns two or three.. i need to kill those psyflemen. he is using servo skulls though, hopefully i can work around 3 of them, he has to place them before deployment and cant cover everything.. IMO 15pts of wargear should not change the mechanics of the game like they do... they really suck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 so a monolith is easier to kill?what changed? Living Metal now just ignores Shaken/Stunned; it no longer prevents attack bonuses such as Tank Hunters/Melta/etc. As for the Draigo list... That will be kind of rough- except that there are no transports. I say that primarily because he'll have a hard time getting a Mystic anywhere near some place useful, so he'll have to depend on those Skulls for more accurate Deep Strike and you can remove those easily with your LSSs. That said, the skulls will give him a buffer against your alpha strike so you'll have to finesse your LSSs down the board behind cover to protect them from the Psyflemen. You also have an advantage in that the Paladins do not have an Apothecary and are not fully kitted out for wound allocation shenanigans; you'll only need to put 6 unsaved wounds on the Paladins before one of them goes down, as opposed to 11. If he reserves the Strikes, punish him for it. Hit the Paladins with everything, because he'll only have 3 units that can retaliate at all- the Paladins and Psyflemen. Take advantage of your early numerical superiority before he evens the playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 so a monolith is easier to kill?what changed? Living Metal now just ignores Shaken/Stunned; it no longer prevents attack bonuses such as Tank Hunters/Melta/etc. oh cool, not so cool for neccy players now though :D As for the Draigo list... That will be kind of rough- except that there are no transports. I say that primarily because he'll have a hard time getting a Mystic anywhere near some place useful, so he'll have to depend on those Skulls for more accurate Deep Strike and you can remove those easily with your LSSs. That said, the skulls will give him a buffer against your alpha strike so you'll have to finesse your LSSs down the board behind cover to protect them from the Psyflemen. i did the math a while back and you cant cover the whole board with 3 skulls.. he cant premeasure from each skull to the next so in guessing ranges he leaves spots open.. also the point at which the circles meet gives me alot of shifting room. i guess how well i can work it, depends on his deployment and placement of his skulls You also have an advantage in that the Paladins do not have an Apothecary and are not fully kitted out for wound allocation shenanigans; you'll only need to put 6 unsaved wounds on the Paladins before one of them goes down, as opposed to 11. yeah i noticed that, i plan to hit with both t-fires and then use Telions ability to allocate wounds (pray for some rends) if i can get rid of those halberds early my ccw squad stands a chance of taking them on later on. the strike squads im not too worried about, they will hurt with thier first salvo, but if i charge them they will fold with a single attack each. just got to deal with those psyflemen If he reserves the Strikes, punish him for it. Hit the Paladins with everything, because he'll only have 3 units that can retaliate at all- the Paladins and Psyflemen. Take advantage of your early numerical superiority before he evens the playing field. past experience and the inclusion of communion lets me beleive he will DS them, chances are at least one squad will come in turn 2, im hoping they will come in piecemeal but ill hit the pallies early and then deal with the rest when they arrive. if he deploys on one side and uses the skulls to screen, ill infiltrate my bikes behind the screen and try to hit his psyflemen early.. ill post some simple batreps once im done. thanks for the tips fellas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 A thing worth remembering about the skulls, is they can be placed anywhere outside of your deployment zone, but not inside your DZ. Also worth noting the Draigo player only has 1 weapon that ignores cover saves, and that is an ap- str 5 flamer from Draigo himself. Part of the reason I take DK's is to bring cover ignoring weapons :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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