Azrael Turnbull Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I have never seen any other Dark Angels player field our illustrious Supreme Grand Master, and I do not know why. With 4 wounds, 4+ inv for him and his squad, and effectively 8 str 6 attacks on the charge whilst the Chapter Banner is around (4 base, +2 for charge and weapons, +1 for banner, one miss gets a re roll which is effectively +1), why is he ignored? When I field him, he has butchered through Beserkers, Plague Marines, commanders, anything the enemy can chuck at him that doesn't hold a Force Weapon or a Power Fist. Are there any Azrael users here? Do they have any tales of glorious swordsmanship as Azrael carves his way through an entire army? ;) Please share them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Nevermind, misremembered. PA DA are still more cost for the same as other Marines, so in the end, more people really only use the current DA 'dex to run DW, RW, or Duo-wing armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Cost. He costs as much as a land raider, and then to get any decent use out of his 4++, you have to put him in a hideously expensive squad...the cost per model ends up being over 100 points! You could put him in a large company vets squad, but then you don't get the chapter banner or an apothecary in the squad....and there's the cost. You could put him in his own command squad, but then, while you do get the banner bonus and can get an apothecary, you have a really small squad with a really high cost per model and no spare wounds, unless you pay all those points and take no upgrades but the APO and the banner....still very pricey and fragile. To get best use out of him, you'd need to be able to take him in a command squad of scale-able size, so you can take the banner, the apo, and a whole bunch of pistol/chainsword vets, (4 attacks each on the charge, but cheap enough to eat a lascannon hit). Maybe, if your assault squads could take off their jump packs, it might be decent to put him in a crusader with ten of them... The thing is, you get better results for fewer points by taking deathwing. For the cost of Azzy+squad, you could get at least two tooled DW squads... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 He costs as much as a land raider Thats it really!He is a CC beast but the point cost is horrible.Plus he could have had a better gun! Take him and termy squad and you are 500 pts unpgraded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Not to mention he doesn't have any form of eternal warrior so he dies horribly easily to power fists, hammers, mc's, and force weapons. Compare him to the benefits of using logan or calgar or god forbid draigo and it's just not worth it. On top of it draigo and logan can at least be put into squads that work well with the characters instead of holding the character back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Back to the original point: are you telling me that none of you guys have any folk tales of how Azrael has fought like the Lion himself on the table? You must have tried him at least once? In other words, who had particularly lucky dice for him that made him look like a real hero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Well lets Break Down Azrael.. Stats. WS/BS - are subpar compared to current edition Chapter Masters and Xenos Leaders. S/T - Standard Space Marine stats, leaving him vulnerable to Instant Death from Str 8 Init - Init is good value but standard for Chapter Master and slower than it should be. (see discussion in unforgiven rules) Wounds - Good LD - standard for Masters Save - good. WS and Init should be increased, but overal pretty standard for a Chapter Master. Wargear. Protector - Good but boring for a chapter master. A Named suit of Artificier Armour.. and just a 2+ Save... needs something extra imo Lion Helm - 4++ for Azrael, like an Iron Halo, but also confers it to squad. This is a nice unit buff. Lion's Wrath - MC Combi Plasma.. again boring. Another Named weapon and just MC'd. Lost the rules from Codex:AOD where it could fire both barrels. and use the special more than once a game. I know combi-weapons changed, but his should have been made special that way. Sword of Secrets - Str 6 MC Power weapon. good weapon, again though.. doesn't live up to its name. Nees some more. Lots of cool sounding wargear, but mostly more talk than bite. Compared to other Chapter masters.. Papa Smurf - Weaker than his gear Count Dracula - Better than his gear Big Dog Daddy - Weaker than his gear King Arthur - Weaker than his gear Now he does have one advantage over Papa, Dog, and Arthur in that he is not in TDA. And while his attacks will not instant death anyone, he does get to strike at init 5 all the time. But he doesnt have that extra oompf to help against High T, enemies and MC's. Special Rules: This is where Azrael really falls way behind. Rites of Battle - good ability, but kind of a waste as over half of DA are fearless anyways. Fearless - its kinda pointless for Azrael, if he joins a fearless unit he would gain it, and if he joins a non-fearless unit he will lose it (Overall its a USR that really only 'helps' IC's if they are alone) What is he missing? Eternal Warrior - He has no protection from instant death. While not required, 3/4 Chapter Masters do have this. Orbital Bombardment - again not required, but 2/4 have this. Close Combat Skill - No FC or CA or Hit-Run or Prefered Enemy or ability to reroll all wounds. All other CM's has this in some form. Force Changing Ability - Elites as Troops, all other CM's have this Force Multiplier - PS allows everyone to be fearless with no downside, Dog gives his squad a choice of skills, Count doesnt scatter on DS, Arthur allows up to 3 units to score/scout, etc. While Azrael does give his squad a 4++ In order to use Azrael effectively he needs to go with a squad of Veterans, they are the best suited for him. The Command squad, while having the advantage of a banner and apothecary, doesn't have the wargear options or size to be as effective. (imo) While he is cheaper than the other Chapter Masters he is also overal much weaker, especially in his rules section. Compared to Belial or Sammael which allow DW/RW he is over priced. This is especially true when you consider all DA units are overpriced. To make Azrael worth it, imo... Boost stats - WS 6, Init 6 Give Protector a 4+ Psychic Nullification ability on any power affecting Azrael and his unit. Give Sword of Secrets, Instant Death and roll 2d6 for armour penetration. Give Lion's Wrath the straight statline - Range 24" Str 7 Ap 2 Assault 2 Remove Rites of Battle. Add Eternal Warrior Add Company Veterans as Troops. Allow upgrade of one Company Veterans Squad to Chapter Command Squad, adding Apoth, Banner. Allow Access to Sacred Standards. New USR: Master of Tactics: A true master of combat tactics, at the beginning of the turn, choose one of the following Special Rules, until the end of the turn Azrael and any unit he is with have that Special Rule. Ferocious Charge, Counter Attack, Relentless, Hit and Run, Prefered Enemy. With those changes, set his cost at 275 points and call it a day :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 The thing that I like the most about your post, is that one day a lot of this will actually happen. :D What a day that will be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 While i agree with most of the changes i dissagree on some details. Why give him psichic nulification?There is nothing in the lore to justify this. Insted of having one profile for his gun give it two:One as a master crafted bolter and one as a master crafted plasmagun without gets hot.With the option of choosing which to fire each turn. The sword of secrets:Instant death is too op whith each attack.It needs a complete overhaul.But right now i just cant think of something good. I am against removing the rights of battle.After all it is represents the fact that the DA leaders are supreme strategists and controll the flow of battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpnightsend Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Guys this is turning into something that belong in the Unforgiven Rules Development. To bring it back to the original point, Azrael, I have fielded him before. I took him to a 2500 pt game against the Vampires themselves. He and a command squad came down in a drop pod. I can't remember the exact gear, but it was an expensive squad. The turn they came down they killed a stormraven with their melta/Azrael's gun. After that they were charged by a squad of DC and only Azrael, the apthecary, and the meltagun lived. After that they killed a squad of assault marines and got tarpitted by a dreadnought until i could bring a CF over to them. As a side note: Landrain, is Count Dracula referring to Dante? Because the obligatory costs-more-than-a-land-raider characters of the BA codex are actually Mephiston and the Sanguinor (and of those two mephiston would get eaten by the other 3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I've had some fun in Apocalypse by putting him with a large Devastator squad. He keeps them alive with his 4++, and if anything comes near, they'll taste his pointy stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynolds Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Back in the day when Necrons were the Top of the Show, and were just released; I had a battle of 1500pts vs them, and I thought to myself= "Oh hell... Monolith will be coming against me anyway, might as well bring the biggest weapon against their Necron Lord I can get, and hope it'll be enough." *** The Story= I brought the heaviest weapons I could bear, and the assault on the necrons was brutal on my end... Land Raider destroyed on Turn 1, Devastator Squad in pieces, Tactical Squads barely holding, Predator Annihilator unable to dent the Monolith, and Terminators yet to deepstrike... So my gambit began= Their Necron Lord was keeping their warriors in "good health", the Monolith was tearing me apart, my dreadnought had fortunately wiped out their Scarab Swarms; And I made my move.. Secondth group of Terminators came in; Three Assault Terminators with lightning claws, one with Assault Cannon and a power fist, and a sergeant, I lashed out at the Necron Armada with Azrael and his Assault Terminator Retinue (four lightning claw terminators, plus sergeant, and Azrael leading them from their cover) Flux Arc from the monolith struck my "command squad", everyone survived; the Necron Horde turned its guns on my other terminator group that teleported and they took colossal amount of shots(+40), and they didn't lose even one member. Round 3= I pushed forward, the Deepstriked Terminator squad assaulted the monolith, with one power fist. 2 attacks, 6 to hit, one hit; 6 for a glancing hit; I rolled a 6; 6 for vehicle destroyed; and I did just that... the monolith came crashing down. Azrael's squad lost its sergeant after a colossal amount of fire(over 60-80 shots). My other Dark Angels barely managed to mow down some of the warriors, but 95% of them rose up after the "Alpha-strike" thanks to the Resurrection Orb. Predator Annihilator managed to take down some of their heavy-hitters. After this I got both of my Deathwing squads to tear down the warriors, and Azrael cleaved through them like paper, with the exception of Necron Lord, who took(only) one terminator per round, thanks to his "no invulnerable save warscythe". Round 6= The Monolith layed in ruins, The Necron Lord was about to phase out, the Azrael's Retinue was able to tear down the warrior horde and their heavy weapon counterpart; most of my forces were in shambles, but intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Sharp Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Sword of Secrets - Str 6 MC Power weapon. good weapon, again though.. doesn't live up to its name. Nees some more. Add Company Veterans as Troops. I agree with most of your post except these. The Sword of Secrets is a relic weapon that can still grant the +1A. Combined with MC, that is a lot of offensive output at Str6. As for Company veterans as Troops, that unit is to represent veteran members of a company being gathered together to concentrate effectiveness. How is Azrael going to do this when there's no company to gather from? The Company Veterans makes sense when you're playing a Greenwing army as the company is being played, but an army of Company Veterans just doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Raziel Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 The reasons are in Brother Landrain's post. It's long though, so I'll sum it up for you. 1: Extreme cost 2: Vulnerable to instant death 3: Lackluster profile 4: Doesn't bring any FOC-alterations to the table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Sword of Secrets - Str 6 MC Power weapon. good weapon, again though.. doesn't live up to its name. Nees some more. Add Company Veterans as Troops. I agree with most of your post except these. The Sword of Secrets is a relic weapon that can still grant the +1A. Combined with MC, that is a lot of offensive output at Str6. As for Company veterans as Troops, that unit is to represent veteran members of a company being gathered together to concentrate effectiveness. How is Azrael going to do this when there's no company to gather from? The Company Veterans makes sense when you're playing a Greenwing army as the company is being played, but an army of Company Veterans just doesn't make sense. Thats because he is not the a Company Master he is THE Chapter Master... So he says.. You Master Joe, Bob, Larry, Sam, Steve, and Winston.. I have a big job, give me your best guys... No not them.. your BEST GUYS... Yep, ALL of them.. Why? Because I am the BOSS... and yes it does say Supreme Grand Master on my T-shirt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 The Company Veterans makes sense when you're playing a Greenwing army as the company is being played, but an army of Company Veterans just doesn't make sense. I'm thinking Azrael doesn't take to the field unless it's at least a whole company involved if not more so it wouldn't be that surprising if he requisitions those assets to perform a mission directly with him while the rest of the company ties the other guys up. Besides it'd be fun to do a DA vet drop pod army led by Azrael that would actually function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 So he says.. You Master Joe, Bob, Larry, Sam, Steve, and Winston.. I have a big job, give me your best guys...No not them.. your BEST GUYS... But wouldn't the best guys be our 1st Company Lads? You know the DW?I want your best guys, not the Chapters best guys... :ermm: Why?Because I am the BOSS... why should I risk our first string boys on a big (secret) job when I can use our second string who will do a less effective job and probably need to be dealt with afterwards since they'll then know too much...O... kay... :P There fixed that for you... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 it does say Supreme Grand Master on my T-shirt... I'm totally getting me one of those...just for adepticon, nationals, weddings, and the like...did I mention bridesmaids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 While i agree with most of the changes i dissagree on some details. Why give him psichic nulification?There is nothing in the lore to justify this. Other than that he is followed around constantly by a Watcher, who are powerful psyker guardians of Caliban/The Rock, and perhaps of Azrael. Insted of having one profile for his gun give it two:One as a master crafted bolter and one as a master crafted plasmagun without gets hot.With the option of choosing which to fire each turn. A special gun that is rapid fire, which precludes Assault with his awesome sword, is indeed one of the anchors weighing Azrael down. When you have rules that put a characters weapons at odds rather than work well in conjunction, either one is an idiot rules designer, or one changes the rules and is then smart rules designer. I am pretty sure it is the former rather than the latter in the case of C: DA 4E. Lot's of poorly crafted stuff in that book. I am against removing the rights of battle.After all it is represents the fact that the DA leaders are supreme strategists and controll the flow of battle. Rights of battle was the DA's Combat Tactics in 4E, excepting that it is not present in any unit other than Masters and certain special characters. If those choices are not in an army list, or are killed, the entirety of the rest of the army loses(or never even has) its equivalent of Combat Tactics. As it is, Rites of Battle exists only as a special rule for two special characters now. If DA were not given access to many ways to make units Fearless or Stubborn next time around, Azrael having the Rites of Battle rule would be very appropriate then. If DA were to have Stubborn instead of Combat Tactics next time around, Rites of Battle wouldn't mean to much at all, but Azrael could still have it for the little good it would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Why?Because I am the BOSS... why should I risk our first string boys on a big (secret) job when I can use our second string who will do a less effective job and probably need to be dealt with afterwards since they'll then know too much...O... kay... :wallbash: There fixed that for you... ;) Well considering there is no real discernable difference in a Company Veteran and a Deathwing trooper... Aside from the armour which in most instances is not worth the cost... And the fact that Company Veterans get way better gear choices... I wouldn't call them second string or less effective... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Sharp Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Why?Because I am the BOSS... why should I risk our first string boys on a big (secret) job when I can use our second string who will do a less effective job and probably need to be dealt with afterwards since they'll then know too much...O... kay... :blink: There fixed that for you... :P Well considering there is no real discernable difference in a Company Veteran and a Deathwing trooper... Aside from the armour which in most instances is not worth the cost... And the fact that Company Veterans get way better gear choices... I wouldn't call them second string or less effective... He's talking about fluff. Company Veterans didn't exist in the DA fluff until 4e, AFAIK. Even now, they really aren't a defined element. Either way, DW are the supernal warriors of the Dark Angels. If Azrael isn't rolling with a Command Squad, I'd expect him with members of the Deathwing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 He's talking about fluff. Company Veterans didn't exist in the DA fluff until 4e, AFAIK. Even now, they really aren't a defined element. Either way, DW are the supernal warriors of the Dark Angels. If Azrael isn't rolling with a Command Squad, I'd expect him with members of the Deathwing. Its my fault, I should know better than to make fluffy references, its not really a strong suit of his. :P On a more seriously note though, you're right, I was talking primarily in terms of fluff. As you very rightly said Company Veterans didn't exist at all up until they were shoehorned into the 4E Codex, and even then they are very much second string, they are not 1st Company nor can they, in any other way, be said to be the best that the DA Chapter has to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NICS Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I used to use Azrael all the time all i did was chuck him in a tac squad a camp them in an objective they were very hard to shoot off. Plenty of time people charged in to them thinking it was just a tac squad then they would see azzy in there and go oh poo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 If Azrael had different wargear options like Belial and Sammael then I would consider using him, as it stands if I play regular Greenwing I use a Librarian and a Company Master or an Interrogator-Chaplain. And regarding the Company Vets as Troops choice, shouldn't the Company Master himself be able to unlock that option? Seems like that should be for him to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Other than that he is followed around constantly by a Watcher, who are powerful psyker guardians of Caliban/The Rock, and perhaps of Azrael. I personaly dont know if they are guardians or psykers,we know they have some abilities but as far as my knowledge goes their agenda and what they are,are left to pure speculation.If they were meant to grant protection to az he would have something else except the force field of the helm in his rules as well. Plus making him a combination of chapter master AND librarian is not DA territory. A special gun that is rapid fire, which precludes Assault with his awesome sword, is indeed one of the anchors weighing Azrael down. When you have rules that put a characters weapons at odds rather than work well in conjunction, either one is an idiot rules designer, or one changes the rules and is then smart rules designer. I am pretty sure it is the former rather than the latter in the case of C: DA 4E. Lot's of poorly crafted stuff in that book. Aye well,give it an assault profile instead of rapid firing then.Or a pistol of somekind. Rights of battle was the DA's Combat Tactics in 4E, excepting that it is not present in any unit other than Masters and certain special characters. If those choices are not in an army list, or are killed, the entirety of the rest of the army loses(or never even has) its equivalent of Combat Tactics. As it is, Rites of Battle exists only as a special rule for two special characters now. If DA were not given access to many ways to make units Fearless or Stubborn next time around, Azrael having the Rites of Battle rule would be very appropriate then. If DA were to have Stubborn instead of Combat Tactics next time around, Rites of Battle wouldn't mean to much at all, but Azrael could still have it for the little good it would do. I understand your concearn but why not have both?Although i believe stubborn is lost to us and we might never see it again.Give the whole chapter a stubborn rule(not as it was in third though)and have the company masters either buff it with rights of battle or change it.After all company leaders should have something to offer the table besides been there as CC specialists. Back on topic:You would be surprised how effective he can be with a chaplain attached to his commandsquad.If you want a cheese uber assault unit try it.I wiped ten BT terminators on turn one without a single swing back on the charge the other day.Though the unit costs two times that it has a psichological effect to wipe out an entire terminator squad in one turn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.