Vazzy Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 So today I was rereading Purging of Kadillus, and came across a mention of the Book of Caliban. From the description it seems vaguely Codex Astartes ish but also different. Any idea on what it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I haven't read any of the older codex's but I doubt its in any of them. Most likely it's just something created by the author of purging of kadillus. As to what it means in that context supposedly it contained some of the strategy/tactics thinking of Lion el'Jonson. As to how much is actually in it who knows as it's not mentioned in any other text that I'm aware of. Basically its fluff for the sake of fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Considering the primarch was a genius at tactics and strategy it could very well be an unforgiving codex type book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Perhaps that is where the Deathwing, Ravenwing and (now-defunct) Ironwing were created for use in the Legion structure along with all the dirty tricks and tactics the Lion knew to win battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 ^^This^^ is what I thought it was. The Lions thoughts on strategy and tactics, carried out by his legion. P.S. What is this ironwing of which you speak of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Considering the primarch was a genius at tactics and strategy it could very well be an unforgiving codex type book. With all the Smurfy things taken out. "'You shalt not mix close combat and ranged weapons in Terminator squads?' Who wrote this crap? Well, cross that bit out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Ha, yeah. Or if it doesn't help the Dark Angels." Don't sacrifice friendly units". Get rid of that. And who puts one arrow on their shoulders. Two is obviously nicer to look at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Ha, yeah. Or if it doesn't help the Dark Angels." Don't sacrifice friendly units". Get rid of that. And who puts one arrow on their shoulders. Two is obviously nicer to look at !?!?!?!?!?!?Is the two pointed arrow in the tacticals a DA exclusive one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 By two I meant how ours are sideways twoway instead of the codex one going up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 P.S. What is this ironwing of which you speak of From the Rogue trader days I believe (ie Edition #1) 1st Company was all TDA 2nd Company was all bikes 3rd Company was all tanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoonKin Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The Book of Caliban containing the art of war, Unforgiven-ish. Could be a cue for our next codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 By two I meant how ours are sideways twoway instead of the codex one going up Yes but is that a da exclusive or other chapters use it too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I actually had a look in the Dark Angel's codex, and it pretty much says the Dark Angels were one of the few chapters that did not accept the strict organizations of the Codex, though any onlooker would be hard-pressed to see any difference between the Unforgiven and any Codex-adherent chapter. Interesting that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I actually had a look in the Dark Angel's codex, and it pretty much says the Dark Angels were one of the few chapters that did not accept the strict organizations of the Codex, though any onlooker would be hard-pressed to see any difference between the Unforgiven and any Codex-adherent chapter. Interesting that. The Lion probably had a better way of organizing his legion than gillimans nonsense.But with the primarch out and a heresy on our hands we had to play by the book at least to give the impression that we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furniture Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Actually, the true differences are in the organizational structure of the Dark Angels and their successors. They are indeed one of the few Chapters who do not follow the Codex in this regard. An onlooker from the outside would not be able to see these differences (the Deathwing/Ravenwing companies being the main difference in military unit structure). It is the Inner Circle that represents the differece. The Inner Circle isn't limited to only the DA, it includes the Inner Circles of every Dark Angels successor chapter as well. All have places in the IC, and all know of the Fallen. Leading the effort in the Hunt for the Fallen is the Chapter Master of the DA, and everyone else reports to him. Basically, what this means is that the Dark Angels still function as a Space Marine Legion, not as a Chapter. Each Chapter in the Dark Angels family is the equivalent of a Great Company from the heresy days. They have their own independence as far as internal affairs and local campaigns go, but any orders or information regarding the Fallen take priority over all of it. When it comes to the Fallen, everyone looks to the top of the DA Inner Circle for orders, leadership, and guidance in this effort, and the DA are the Chapter that manages the Rock and holds Luther. Since this structure is completely underneath an outsider's radar because it is within the Inner Circle, nobody on the outside would notice that the Dark Angels are still a Legion united with a single purpose - to hunt the Fallen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Sharp Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 By two I meant how ours are sideways twoway instead of the codex one going up Yes but is that a da exclusive or other chapters use it too? DA and their successors are the only ones that I've seen use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 An onlooker from the outside would not be able to see these differences (the Deathwing/Ravenwing companies being the main difference in military unit structure). Deathwing is a Codex formation. Ravenwing is the only obvious non-Codex thing about DAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Sharp Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 An onlooker from the outside would not be able to see these differences (the Deathwing/Ravenwing companies being the main difference in military unit structure). Deathwing is a Codex formation. How do you figure? While the 1st Company is definitely codex, equipping your 1st Co in terminator armor only is odd, and the mixing of weapons among those squads even more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 1st Company can be equipped both with TDA and PA under Codex Astartes. Choosing either is a valid Codex choice. Now the equipment mix of the 1st Company is hardly a point of difference background wise. This is a rules invention - not background. In a future edition this might extend to all terminators of any chapter (much like all terminator armies are now allowed through special builds in both C:SM and C:SW). In a past edition there were more than one heavy weapon allowed per squad for example... Besides the argument was that an onlooker (in-Universe) will instantly consider the Deathwing as a non-Codex formation. I think this is no more the case than saying BAs termies are non-Codex because in Space Hulk they do get mixed squads (of sorts). My point is that in-Universe the armammet of a given squad is up to the conditions in the field and unless Deathwing was carrying something obviously non-Imperial then anything goes... Therefore I argue that Deathwing does not deviate from the Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Sharp Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Hmmm... I'd say that completely disregarding the codex's teachings on the value of both Sternguard and Vanguard vets would be breaking from the codex. Sure those units were invented for the current SM codex, but through the powers of the mighty retcon they've always existed. Either way, it's not that important. As Furniture so aptly noted, the Inner Circle is the largest break from the codex, and that's not apparent to even some members of the chapter, let alone outsiders. Btw, C:SM has no build for an all-terminator army. Only Space Wolves (a most assuredly non-codex chapter) and Grey Knights (who even knows how they view the codex) have that option. So the only chapters other than DA that have used an all-terminator formation are non-codex, strengthening the idea that this is a point of divergence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 PA armoured 1st Company veterans is a tactical option allowed by the Codex. Same as Terminator armour. Nowhere have I seen that Codex obliges the Chapter to use one or the other - this is up to the tactical situation in each case and up to the Commanding officer. Some might argue that PA 1st Comp. Vets exist only because TDA is not so widely available. This of course is not the case with DAs that have more than enough to equip everybody... To me the greatest deviation from Codex is the "Secret Legion" theme. This was one of the strictest edicts of the Codex and probably the main reason for its introduction, i.e. the scaling down of the Space Marine military power by breaking up the Legions. DAs have gone around this by having a unified command structure among all Unforgiven chapters. I sure hope future codices explore this "Secret Legion" theme even more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 1st Company can be equipped both with TDA and PA under Codex Astartes. Choosing either is a valid Codex choice. Now the equipment mix of the 1st Company is hardly a point of difference background wise. This is a rules invention - not background. In a future edition this might extend to all terminators of any chapter (much like all terminator armies are now allowed through special builds in both C:SM and C:SW). In a past edition there were more than one heavy weapon allowed per squad for example... Besides the argument was that an onlooker (in-Universe) will instantly consider the Deathwing as a non-Codex formation. I think this is no more the case than saying BAs termies are non-Codex because in Space Hulk they do get mixed squads (of sorts). My point is that in-Universe the armammet of a given squad is up to the conditions in the field and unless Deathwing was carrying something obviously non-Imperial then anything goes... Therefore I argue that Deathwing does not deviate from the Codex. Nop that doesnt stand for two reasons:Space Hulk operations are not battlefield ops and we can assume special conditions apply,i even believe that Guiliman wouldnt have even thought about that in the dex. There is no other 1st company in the imperium except the deathwing that posses 100+ terminator suits to be able to field it effectively as a terminator company. This has been established by the fluff and continues to this day.(one could even argue that the DA posses so many terminator armors as to equip their successors too and if we stretch the numbers a bit we are speaking about an entire chapter of TDA equipped marines collectively!) One could use the rules back round/fluff argument vice-versa:Mixing weapons in terminator squads can be fluffy for the reason that the DA read the dex and their grand masters used it as toilet paper later.So it is the tacticals needs that gave mixed weapons to the DA.The same can be said for other terminator heavy armies.The sw though by no means possessing as many TDA(and lets be honest that rule was given to a chapter that IMHO should not even have plenty of suits to begin with),one could argue that their deviation from the codex allows them to think a bit for themselves and thus they understand that as long as terminators are on the site almost nothing can dislodge them. I made the same mistake as you.The captain in terminator armor in the space marine dex doesnt allow terminators to be taken as troops. Plus i would never try to tell an ultramarine to deviate from the codex by equipping jump marines with bolters(example) due to tactical necessity.Talk about flexibility in the imperium:As it was written so shall it be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 IIRC, C:SM can have scoring Terminators, but the guys that gives them is a Codex-compliant chapter's SC from Forgeworld (Novamarines). So, while not a Terminator army per se, does give the impression that the "smash the enemy with them and move on" is not the only Codex ideal for use of TDA equipped veterans. Combine that with the guy (think it is Tyberos) that gives you one LC armed Terminator squad as Troops as well, and you have 40 Terminators acting as Troops/securing objectives and acting as other than normal in a game, so I wouldn't say that the Codex Astartes itself specifically removes the option to use Terminators as a whole company. TDA is simply a method of arming a unit of vets, and it is actually more tactically and strategically inflexible to say "our vets will ONLY ever fight in TDA, even when other armaments might make more sense." We could argue all day long about what makes a Chapter Codex compliant and what doesn't, because GW has never seen fit to actually tell us what is in the Codex, and seem to go out of their way to say "The Codex itself is huge and therefore immensely flexible in it's set up" and then go on to say that a Codex Chapter has to be built in X fashion. After all, Iron Hands are Codex-compliant, but their internal organization seems much more like the Space Wolves, who are always described as Codex non-compliant. Edit: forgot an "e" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 DP,Mods delete plz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I am sorry i dont know of forge world chars and rules,i was speaking of the lets say 'pure' 40k. One could say though that as far marines are concerned the codex space marines is the codex astartes so whats in codex space marines makes chapters compliant thereby no terminator troops. Also i know about the inflexibily of not fielding vets in PA but one has to see it from another perspective:DA do indeed field veterans in PA.Not all veterans are part of the deathwing,thereby they wont be in the first company neither fight in TDA since the lore specifically says that for our chapter and ours alone(successors included as per the legion structure) the 1st fights exclusively in TDA. We need to see the deathwing as a different part of the common 1st companies of other chapters.The deathwing is composed of veteran marines that are proving themselves to handle the truth of the DA sins.Not only that they have been proved adept at keeping their mouths zipped and slowly are trusted with more and more secrets.Further more the title of 'the best terminator corps in the imperium'doesnt belong to simple veteran marines. Also consider that here is from where the company masters and the next Supreme Grand Master of the chapter/legion will be chosen from. To sum it up:Its still blurry since the lore is not defined enough yet but we can agree to this general rule of thumb:Deathwing marine#Veteran marine.Both maybe vets but their prowess in battle and knowledge of our secrets are two different things.We can also assume that the powered armored veteran formation is a company veteran formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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