The Book of Caliban

[Augustus]

I like the idea that its the Dark Angels doctrines on warfare which just happen to be similar to Codex Astartes.

 

The Big Blue Boss and the Lion probably would have seen eye to eye on many things. Indeed the Horus Heresy paints the legion structure as very similar to what it is now. With 1000 man Chapters and masters leading, etc. The books also mention the Verbatium which was the way the Order fought and operated. So I see it as a continuation of this.

 

So, save for the edict breaking the legions, I think the Dark Angels have probably been operating the same way for a long time, albeit on a smaller scale and any similarities to Codex Astartes structure can be attributed to the two primarchs being equally Tactically/Strategically sound.

 

 

Or it could be Codex Astartes and the Dark Angels have attempted to save face by calling it the Book of Caliban.

[Captain Semper]

Nop that doesnt stand for two reasons:Space Hulk operations are not battlefield ops and we can assume special conditions apply,i even believe that Guiliman wouldnt have even thought about that in the dex.

 

:) You mean one of the most capable strategic minds would not have thought of boarding actions? Really? That's odd... and incorrect.

 

But I think you got my argument the other way around. I am NOT saying that BAs Termies are not Codex because of Space Hulk. I used this example to underline that a Codex Chapter like BAs has the tactical flexibility to equip its best warriors (any warriors really) in a way to maximize its chances to win. Same applies for any Chapter really. And it's Codex mentality all the way.

 

There is no other 1st company in the imperium except the deathwing that posses 100+ terminator suits to be able to field it effectively as a terminator company. This has been established by the fluff and continues to this day.(one could even argue that the DA posses so many terminator armors as to equip their successors too and if we stretch the numbers a bit we are speaking about an entire chapter of TDA equipped marines collectively!)

 

Absolutely. The main (only?) reason that Deathwing is always in Terminator armour is because, well, they have enough of them!

 

One could use the rules back round/fluff argument vice-versa:Mixing weapons in terminator squads can be fluffy for the reason that the DA read the dex and their grand masters used it as toilet paper later.So it is the tacticals needs that gave mixed weapons to the DA.The same can be said for other terminator heavy armies.The sw though by no means possessing as many TDA(and lets be honest that rule was given to a chapter that IMHO should not even have plenty of suits to begin with),one could argue that their deviation from the codex allows them to think a bit for themselves and thus they understand that as long as terminators are on the site almost nothing can dislodge them.

 

OK: using TDA for 1st Company troopers is NOT deviating from the Codex. In fact these are the ONLY guys allowed to use them in the first place. How on earth would any one argue that fielding 1st company Terminators is somehow a non-Codex practice is beyond me! The only distinction that can be made between a "Codex" Terminator squad and a DA teminator squad is that in terms of gameplay the latter MAY (not MUST) have a mixed weapon loadout. And I argue that this is a gameplay distinction NOT a background one. In an in-Universe context Terminators are equipped anyway that the mission dictates - hence the Space Hulk example. Load-out preference is not a breach of the Codex (assuming one uses proper Imperial equipment - a D-cannon equipped Termie is bound to raise some brows...)

 

I made the same mistake as you.The captain in terminator armor in the space marine dex doesnt allow terminators to be taken as troops.

 

I actually thought -for some weird reason- that Lysander was unlocking this build... My bad.

 

Plus i would never try to tell an ultramarine to deviate from the codex by equipping jump marines with bolters(example) due to tactical necessity.Talk about flexibility in the imperium:As it was written so shall it be...

 

I think you'll find that the Codex is not as rigid as you made it out. In fact (and I quote from p.9 of the current Codex: SM): "...these guidelines have been much modified over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the 41st Millenium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdon of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history". The term "guidelines" which is a loose term in itself referes directly to the tactical roles, equipment and uniform idetification markings. Don't be surprised to see jump troops with bolters in a future incarnation.

 

 

@ Augustus: I kind of agree that Guilliman and the Lion would see things eye to eye... It makes sense. But we don't know yet. In fact I have the feeling that the relation between the two Primarchs wil be further explored (judging from the ending in A D-B "Savage Weapons".

[Bryan Blaire]

Sorry Brother Immolater, I disagree that the Codex:Space Marines = the Codex Astartes, otherwise the Blood Angels would be considered a very divergent Chapter, when they are in fact one of it's most firm users. The BA Codex even says this. The way codex rules are set up are not 100% used to mimic a Chapter's divergence. The Blood Angels do not have up to 6 squads of Assault Marines per Company, it is explicity stated that they only have two per Company, and yet you can take them as troops. This in and of itself says that the rules layouts and the fluff on something being Codex Astartes compliant are two different things, and very much revolve around the fluff and not the rules. The BA only real divergence is specifically due to their gene-flaw, and so isn't even a consciously chosen divergence.

 

Nothing I've seen says that fielding your entire 1st (Veteran) company in TDA is a Codex Astartes non-compliant concept, simply that as has been pointed out, most Chapters don't have that many TDA suits (but I bet most, if not all, wish they did). Until we are directly told that it is a CdxAstartes violation, we can't assume that because the Ultramarines don't have the suits to do it, it must be a violation.

 

And can we please not act as if Forgeworld isn't valid as far as fluff (and even rules, unless they are still clearly experimental)? I understand unfamiliarity, I'm just starting to get into it as well, but the fluff from Forgeworld is just as valid as the fluff from GW main or Black Library, and people don't often seek to remove that fluff from discussion, regardless of familiarity. Heck, Forgeworld's value per dollar simply for fluff, rules and pictures is actually better than the same full color army books from GW (I have a cost per page spreadsheet analysis for another thread discussing this if someone wants the link - or the spreadsheet).

[Brother Immolator]

Well brothers i ll answer this on an argument vs argument basis.

 

To my esteemed brother Bryan Blaire:

 

Codex space marines vs codex astartes:Well that maybe true or might not.Let me remind you though that most players read that line(BA to be STRICT adherents of the codex)foamed with rage against ward.After all its not only the death company and organization.Its the dreads the sanguinary guard,infernus pistols,masks and so on.There are many thingies.

As for the codex itself.It is a guideline indeed we all agree to that.BUT,it is interpreted as a holy tome and we know how holy things are regarded in the imperium.We have instances that the UM regard other marines as deviants and heretics for not following the codex(dont remember the page right now but it is written as such in the marine dex).So not so opened minded after all.Neither i can think them as open-minded when they send one of their best commanders to a suicide crusade crusade for thinking out of the box and doing what had to be done(Uriel Ventris).

 

TDA and codex compliance:I can argue to that the same as i argue with the codex,but to be true i find your arguments both true and convincing so i accept them and change my mind.

 

As for forgeworld:I don't disregard the fluff,as i said i have ignorance of the facts you said so i cant comment on them.It would be foolish of me to speak of something i don't know.However black library is something to be argued upon:Eldar with bullets?Carnifexes with multy-lazers?

 

To my equally esteemed brother Captain Semper:

I am afraid the adherence to the codex from chapter to chapter is something different.An ultramarines mentality might see what you suggest as heresy as i answered above,another chapter might be flexible enough to do it as you suggest.So IMHO there is no codex mentality per se as a codex employment and interpretation.

 

To your second and thrird argument my answer is the same as above too.For the fourth its a mix of the above and the second of brother Bryan Blaire.

 

And for your final ill re-clarify it again.Its not the codex per se.Its the interpretation by the imperium.Remember its called a holy tome.

[Vazzy]

I really like the idea the The Book of Caliban is the Lions codex astartes. Though I would assume his and guillmans book are a lot alike.