Mephiston

[Blitzkrieg861]

My question would be more specificly "what list could you build, that does not include Mephiston, is the most competative list possible?"

[AbusePuppy]

They still care about him, because he does beat anything and has a fairly large threat range... Sure, they can shoot him down but that still costs a lot of shooting. (plasma rifles wound on a 4+, you need basicly a complete round of shooting with your suits to kill him; if you see him) At the least he can simply prevent Tau from going anywhere by hiding somewhere and therfore denying them objectives and so winning the game.

 

Well, yes, they care about him in the same way they care about all Marine units- if they get assaulted, they're dead. But in that regard, Meph is less tough than a lot of other things (squad of ASM with Priest, etc), so they're happy to see him across the table. Meph can't multi-charge, Meph doesn't carry Meltaguns to bring down their skimmers. They're fine with Meph.

 

What beats him in CC? :P Only the big boss himself, if he doesn't fail his 2++ or kills him in 1 round. But I said myself: DE doesn't really care about him, although they still have to shoot him down.

Yes, an Archon will strike simul with Meph and can instakill him (via Huskblade.) Even just an Agonizer will cause some real problems for him, especially if you add in Lance weaponry hitting him before the charge. Obviously if the Shadowfield fails they die, but that's sorta always how things are for Archons. Wyches with an Agonizer will also give him fits, since he can't really cut them down all that quickly.

 

Nah, this assumes you throw him into a large mob. What about using him to kill Kan Walls? Nobs? Lootas? Multicharging into mobs? Letting him get killed because you got stuck in a 30 man Mob with a Klaw repeatingly hammering into you is just bad play Puppy, you know this too :P

 

The problem is you aren't going to reach a lot of those other things without getting through the Boyz. Sure, maybe he can pounce a Nob Squad, but if you don't kill all of them, you're in for some serious hurt. And again: you have to look at what those 250pts would otherwise buy, and most of those things scare Orks more than Meph does.

[vahouth]

I'm somehow ashamed to say this but...since the new Codex came out, I only used Mephiston once! :lol:

It was in a four player game with 3500pts in each side. I teamed my 1750pts with an Ultramarine and our opponents were Chaos marines and Dark Eldar.

Everyone had a huge body count in his list except mine (29 models) and that's because I had this crazy idea to include Mephiston, Dante and Lemartes with 4 Jump packed DC, amongst others.

Long story short...our opponents conceded on their 3rd turn.

Curiously though they later told me that they considered Dante to be biggest threat in my list. Oh well...

[Zhukov]

My question would be more specificly "what list could you build, that does not include Mephiston, is the most competative list possible?"

That list I posted there. Yes really :lol:

 

Fair enough Puppy, let's agree to disagree. I think when people take a balance between our 2 views, then it's a pretty accurate reflection of Mephy against those armies.

[Morticon]

Out of curiosity, can someone provide what they consider to be a stronger 1750 without mephiston, than one with?

Sorta, yes. Points don't allow Mephy in a shooty focused build.

 

Librarian 100

2x Priest 100

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

5 Sternguard; 2x Missile Launcher 135

5 Sternguard; 2x Missile Launcher 135

5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135

5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135

5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135

5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135

5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135

Las/AC Pred 135

Las/AC Pred 135

Las/AC Pred 135

Total: 1750

 

You could take out an ASM squad + dozers and put Mephy in, but I don't think this list would benefit from that. But I give it you, it's a doubtfull case :angry: (I love Mephy myself too ^^)

 

Id lose a ASM squad, convert one Stern to 1x 5man Devs with 3 MLs and put in Mephy.

And id be hard pressed to believe that the new list is worse than the one before.

[Artex]

I recently played my first game against the new Necrons, and Mephiston fell to 5 Lichguard with shields and a Necron Overlord with Warschyte and 3++ save. He saved all my attacks cept for 1 wound on a Lichguard (who later got up on a 4+). I almost never use Mephiston, and this did not make me want to use him more :blink:

 

What won the game for me (5 to 6 in killpoints) was my 7 man Death Company with jumppacks and Lemartes and my DC Dread with Blood Talons. I want to use those guys alot more now! :angry:

[Morticon]

I recently played my first game against the new Necrons, and Mephiston fell to 5 Lichguard with shields and a Necron Overlord with Warschyte and 3++ save. He saved all my attacks cept for 1 wound on a Lichguard (who later got up on a 4+). I almost never use Mephiston, and this did not make me want to use him more :)

 

So, you take a model with no inv. save, whose specialty is wading through rank and file troops or other specific targets and throw him against 300 and how many points of high strength, inv save having, power weapon wielding models?!!?

 

:blink:

 

If you put a woodpecker in a solid steel box, its not the woodpeckers fault it can't make a nest, mate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm somehow ashamed to say this but...since the new Codex came out, I only used Mephiston once! :angry:

 

Nothing to be ashamed of. If consensus is anything to go by, thats a flippin good achievement!

[Artex]

I recently played my first game against the new Necrons, and Mephiston fell to 5 Lichguard with shields and a Necron Overlord with Warschyte and 3++ save. He saved all my attacks cept for 1 wound on a Lichguard (who later got up on a 4+). I almost never use Mephiston, and this did not make me want to use him more :angry:

 

So, you take a model with no inv. save, whose specialty is wading through rank and file troops or other specific targets and throw him against 300 and how many points of high strength, inv save having, power weapon wielding models?!!?

As I said, I have barely used him at all. I have just seen on forums that people worship him for his awesomeness. To be honest, the plan was for him to kill the C'tan that the Necron player had. I am sure he would have done that easily! Should have sticked to my original plan. :blink:

[JamesI]

I'm somehow ashamed to say this but...since the new Codex came out, I only used Mephiston once! :angry:

 

Nothing to be ashamed of. If consensus is anything to go by, thats a flippin good achievement!

I used him once too, in an Apoc game. He and Lemartes were my only models to survive.

[Morticon]

As I said, I have barely used him at all. I have just seen on forums that people worship him for his awesomeness. To be honest, the plan was for him to kill the C'tan that the Necron player had. I am sure he would have done that easily! Should have sticked to my original plan. -_-

 

Nope- its likely he wouldnt have killed the C'tan ! 4++ inv. high toughness, and immune to ID.

Also, ignores inv. saves and has high Strength - not good.

 

Shoulda gotten him into the immortals/warriors/spyders!!

[Morollan]

Id lose a ASM squad, convert one Stern to 1x 5man Devs with 3 MLs and put in Mephy.

And id be hard pressed to believe that the new list is worse than the one before.

 

You'd be using too many heavy slots but you could lose one of the predators instead of the ASM and I tend to agree the list would be stronger.

[Morticon]

Id lose a ASM squad, convert one Stern to 1x 5man Devs with 3 MLs and put in Mephy.

And id be hard pressed to believe that the new list is worse than the one before.

 

You'd be using too many heavy slots but you could lose one of the predators instead of the ASM and I tend to agree the list would be stronger.

 

Wait?! we only get three!?!? -_-

 

my bad, my bad!

 

Yeh, then id do the same. Would potentially even dabble with the idea of changing a laspred to a baal and then do as above.

[breng77]

Not that it matters for mephy but ctan no longer ignore inul saves. I think meph vs. ctan would actually be pretty close.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Yeah, Mephy against those necrons with the invul save and power weapons.... bad target. It's the same pricinple as why you don't assault with him into Hammernators or even DE Wyches. That same unit would go down super quick to massed shooting. And that's the joy of having Meph in a shooty mech list. If the mech can't handle it, Meph can. If Meph can't handle it, the mech can. I much prefer the 1750 list with Meph I'm buying/painting models for....

 

Mephy

4 x 5 ASM w/ MG and Razorback armed w/ TL-Assault Cannon (choose whatever you like, I like my assault cannons)

3 x Baal Pred w/ TL-Assault Cannon and HB Sponsons

3 x Pred w/ AC and LC Sponsons

[AbusePuppy]

Id lose a ASM squad, convert one Stern to 1x 5man Devs with 3 MLs and put in Mephy.

And id be hard pressed to believe that the new list is worse than the one before.

 

You'd be using too many heavy slots but you could lose one of the predators instead of the ASM and I tend to agree the list would be stronger.

 

I think I would disagree. This is where Meph has his problems- yes, he's a great counterassault unit, but that list doesn't necessarily need any counterassault; you're already paying the Fast tax, which should reliably keep you out of close combat with things. Sinking another huge chunk of points deprives your list of shooting, and against an enemy shooting list Meph just isn't going to do as much as whatever you're pulling out (AutoLas, ASM, etc) because he's going to be the lone forward element desperately trying to get to the enemy all by himself.

 

When he's part of a combined assault on their lines supported by other units that can do the things he can't and that can support him in his attacks, Meph is good. When he's the only guy you're sending towards them, he's bad.

[pararanger]

I love Mephy... I had one opponent target him with half his army for two turns while I maneuvered the rest of my forces. Match was a draw, but it was still a blast. Oddly enough, during an Apoc game, I stuck him manning an AA emplacement. Had the best BS on our side, and he wasn't going to be able to get into CC for 3 or more turns, so why not. He laid waste to the Ork flyers. The running joke is "Mephiston... Best damned AA gunner in the Imperium."

[Morticon]

I think meph vs. ctan would actually be pretty close.

 

That's the prob matey!!

One of the golden rules in 40k is never fight a fair fight.

[Morticon]

I think I would disagree. This is where Meph has his problems- yes, he's a great counterassault unit, but that list doesn't necessarily need any counterassault; you're already paying the Fast tax, which should reliably keep you out of close combat with things. Sinking another huge chunk of points deprives your list of shooting, and against an enemy shooting list Meph just isn't going to do as much as whatever you're pulling out (AutoLas, ASM, etc) because he's going to be the lone forward element desperately trying to get to the enemy all by himself.

 

When he's part of a combined assault on their lines supported by other units that can do the things he can't and that can support him in his attacks, Meph is good. When he's the only guy you're sending towards them, he's bad.

 

 

Its not a huge chunk of points- its 150 points.

 

And the amount of shooting you deprive your list in this case is entirely negligible. You lose 1x Twin heavy bolter and at minimum a missile launcher from the Stern.

 

In return you get a unit that that allows you to have more options when theory hammer fails.

Yes, the concept of a fast moving shooting list is all well and good, and one shouldnt be getting into close combat - but it doesnt always work that way in practice. Being able to adjust and adapt to the game, the opponent and the environment is what will make a good list better.

 

Your anology of sending mephy off vs counter-charging is only partially correct cause it leaves a lot of factors out.

 

When you face off, you're likely to boil the opponents down into 2 main meta list types - 1: Shootier than you, 2: Not Shootier than you - with the 2nd, branching into 2 more sub categories of Not Shootier but more fighty, and Not shootier and not more fighty. (the last just being a poor list design by default- and we wont waste time there)

 

A list that is not shootier than you, you just need to keep at bay, use the movement as you've said, stay out of combat and keep blasting away. However, lists that are not shootier, will rely on various tactics to get into your face. Either their speed, or deepstriking etc. Smart players will bait players, or present more immediate threats, whilst slowly moving other key units into position. You are now stuck with having to deal with the immediate threat, or risk having the key units get further into your lines.

 

 

Conversely, you will send Mephiston off into the distance only under rare circumstances. These circumstances will usually be when the opponent is shootier than you. If you have an opponent shootier than you, its going to be unlikely that they are fightier than you too. This means tactically you're left with one of two option. 1: Hope that the opponent has a static army, and use terrain and your movement to your advantage to shave what you can off his forces, or 2: Advance.

 

Mephy acts in the same way we mentioned two paragraphs up. He presents a more immediate threat to the opponent. This allows you to keep more or your important units alive and firing for longer. Of course, if youre a smart player, you'll always have mephy in cover, and you'll limit incoming fire, to try suck up as much firepower as possible, whilst minimising the damage you take.

Additionally, unlike the librarian, he's a unit unto himself, meaning hes an entire target by himself. A squad of marines with a HB means stuff all. Mephy potentially in your grill - different story.

 

 

Again, the concept and theory is sound, but I think in practice its very different.

 

And i'd be hardpressed to accept that any competitive player worth his salt would believe that of those 1750 lists, the Mephy one is weaker. And that really is the crux of the discussion. Not, where Mephy's weaknesses are, not where he falls down, or why he shouldn't be in a list - but rather the fact that if we had to pick one or two, I think Mephy may be representing.

[BorisBC]

BorisBC - check the link in my sig for tourney batreps -most of which are with Mephy. He does okay :D

 

Cool thanks mate! Will report back on how he goes! :tu:

[Morticon]

BorisBC - check the link in my sig for tourney batreps -most of which are with Mephy. He does okay :P

 

Cool thanks mate! Will report back on how he goes! :P

 

Also, they say you learn more in defeat than in victory, so see where I slipped up with the SA Nationals in 2010, and then at Adepticon too.

Will give you some insight on how to avoid losing mephy like a dink ! :P

[AbusePuppy]

Its not a huge chunk of points- its 150 points.

I guess we're just gonna have to disagree there, because I think 150pts is an awful lot, especially at 1750.

 

And the amount of shooting you deprive your list in this case is entirely negligible. You lose 1x Twin heavy bolter and at minimum a missile launcher from the Stern.

What? I'm not sure I understand, how are you dropping one Missile and one HB and getting 150pts? Dropping an AutoLas or one of the ASM squads will get it, but that's losing you quite a lot of firepower (and resilience, in the case of AutoLas, or some scoring, in the case of the ASM.)

 

Yes, the concept of a fast moving shooting list is all well and good, and one shouldnt be getting into close combat - but it doesnt always work that way in practice. Being able to adjust and adapt to the game, the opponent and the environment is what will make a good list better.

Of course not. The question becomes "how much are you willing to invest into your secondary strategy?" For me, the 250pts for Meph, plus the 15pts-per-tank cost on being Fast is simply too much to be dedicating to something that isn't going to be relevant every game (i.e. a melee strategy).

 

When you face off, you're likely to boil the opponents down into 2 main meta list types - 1: Shootier than you, 2: Not Shootier than you - with the 2nd, branching into 2 more sub categories of Not Shootier but more fighty, and Not shootier and not more fighty. (the last just being a poor list design by default- and we wont waste time there)

You are correct insofar as this goes, but your later assumptions fall flat, I think. If you're fighting a list that is shootier than you (which is going to be a lot of other pure shooting lists), your solution should not be to try and engage them in melee (well, okay, maybe against Tau or Necrons, but...), your solution should be to beat them on mobility, range, or survivability- one of the other arenas your list trumps theirs. That's why you're paying those 15pts for Fast- so you have additional options that a more static shooting list doesn't. Making use of those- not dedicating additional points to another solution you don't necessarily need- is the better option I feel.

 

A list that is not shootier than you, you just need to keep at bay, use the movement as you've said, stay out of combat and keep blasting away. However, lists that are not shootier, will rely on various tactics to get into your face. Either their speed, or deepstriking etc. Smart players will bait players, or present more immediate threats, whilst slowly moving other key units into position. You are now stuck with having to deal with the immediate threat, or risk having the key units get further into your lines.

Sure, all of these things are standard strategies. But again: you're more maneuverable that other shooting lists. You aren't stuck in one place; you can create gaps in their lines and move into that space. You can shoot while retreating to give yourself more time. You can move 12" (making you almost impossible to hurt with melee) and still get shots off. These things drastically change how a melee army has to play against you, because it will take them longer than usual to get to you and just reaching your lines is no guarantee of your units being sitting ducks.

 

I'm not saying none of the tactics you mention will work- I'm saying that you're already paying for a partial solution to them. Why pay for two?

 

Conversely, you will send Mephiston off into the distance only under rare circumstances. These circumstances will usually be when the opponent is shootier than you.

I don't think these circumstances are all that rare. SM, some SW builds, IG, DE, Necrons, and Tau can all outshoot you at a given points level. Their vehicle chassis (as a whole) are cheaper, and thus they can get more guns in their army. Fast is an advantage, but it's one we pay for, and that means we have comparatively less shooting than an army that doesn't have to sink those extra points for it.

 

Mephy acts in the same way we mentioned two paragraphs up. He presents a more immediate threat to the opponent.

But he isn't; that's as case of mistaken target priority. Most of these armies are prepared to deal with melee units as well- they may have a countercharge unit of their own (TH/SS are not uncommon in this role, or TWC) or they may have dedicated close-in firepower to stop such units. They will instead present him with minimal-use blocking or bubblewrap units and seek to leave him in the open to finish him with one good round of shooting, because they know that, unlike the rest of your army, they can afford to ignore him for at least one full turn, and quite possibly two, while they shut down your guns. This is where Meph's cost is a problem: including him exacerbates your weakness (having fewer guns than the enemy) to try and hybridize in a totally different strategy (melee threat.) In that case, why not bring something like a unit of TH/SS instead? They're tougher, hit harder, and cost less. Split-strategy armies are very tricky to get to work; it can happen, but it's not easy. Countercharge units need to be cheap enough not to significantly detract from your main army goals; I don't feel Meph meets that requirement.

 

And i'd be hardpressed to accept that any competitive player worth his salt would believe that of those 1750 lists, the Mephy one is weaker. And that really is the crux of the discussion. Not, where Mephy's weaknesses are, not where he falls down, or why he shouldn't be in a list - but rather the fact that if we had to pick one or two, I think Mephy may be representing.

*shrug* I don't think that shooting list is ideal, but I don't think adding Meph to it makes it better.

 

NOTANEDIT: Ack, I just just looked at that list in more detail and... no. I was thinking those were LasPlas Razorbacks, not Bolterbacks. Bolterbacks are terrible. Yeah, I'd drop two of those to get Meph, but I wouldn't drop two good units to get him. Pretend I was talking about a list with 6x LasPlas 3x AutoLas and maybe a Baal or some Sternguard or something in the above post(s).

 

Erm, anyways, digression aside, I like Meph. He's a lean, mean, MEQ-killing machine and if you support him well he can do amazing things, but just planting him into every list is a bad idea. Shooting lists aren't going to have the other assault units to support him when he's in close, and having guys 48" away pew-pewing the enemy isn't the same thing. Meltaguns and Plasmaguns are both gonna get aimed at him because they have no other targets, etc.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have never bought into the penny wise theory of building army lists as they tend to be crafted in a vacuum and are often devoid of practical experience. It sounds good on paper but often folds on the table.

 

G :)

[Zhukov]

NOTANEDIT: Ack, I just just looked at that list in more detail and... no. I was thinking those were LasPlas Razorbacks, not Bolterbacks. Bolterbacks are terrible.

Nope, they're only terrible in theory. I can tell you why they're not bad, but I got the idea I wont convince you anyway, so let's not waste words on that shall we :lol:

[Bartali]

So, you take a model with no inv. save, whose specialty is wading through rank and file troops or other specific targets and throw him against 300 and how many points of high strength, inv save having, power weapon wielding models?!!?

 

I'd thought I'd run the numbers on Mephiston vs :-

 

250pts

Librarian w/ Rage, Shield, Jump Pack

5xASM W/ Meltagun, Power Weapon.

 

Presuming they're both in range of a priest, both the libby and mephiston get rage off, and they both get the charge :-

 

Mephiston kills 4.44 MEQ

Libby+ASM kills 6.2 MEQ

 

Add in shooting before charging, presuming target is in cover :-

 

Mephiston kills 4.79 MEQ

Libby+ASM kills 7.03 MEQ

[AbusePuppy]

I have never bought into the penny wise theory of building army lists as they tend to be crafted in a vacuum and are often devoid of practical experience. It sounds good on paper but often folds on the table.

Well, obviously. Since every unit is exactly as good as every other unit, people shouldn't even bother writing army lists; just throw darts at the codex until you're out of points and then use Superior Generalshipiality to win all of everything.

 

Nope, they're only terrible in theory. I can tell you why they're not bad, but I got the idea I wont convince you anyway, so let's not waste words on that shall we

;) I'm fairly sure we've had this discussion before, yeah. Suffice to say that I'm not interesting in paying 55pts for three S5 shots, I don't think it has any real value to most lists.