Mephiston

[AbusePuppy]

Theres your winner as far as not being able to put mephy in. I played a 2500 list thats near identical, but with Mephy though.

The other two Id argue otherwise, but may just be down to playstyle.

 

Personally I would prefer:

 

*deletia*

 

Mephy on the board means more heavy weapons directed to him and off the other stuff. But, again that would be delving way too much into theory hammer now. And the list is very strong without.

 

Mmm. The problem I see is that you're lacking the second Dread (so you're "wasting" Stormraven space) and Meph doesn't have a specifically good way to get there (since both 'Ravens are full and you don't have a transport wall that wants to close with the enemy to block LOS to him.) They're still gonna shoot the Stormravens first because they're the immediate threats, with Meph only coming after. The issue with the dual-Raven list is you're struggling to fit in two double-hammer units AND any fire support, so your points are really, really tight; affording Meph is a bit of a stretch there. I think you could sub him for one or the other of the hammers to save some points potentially, but...

[Black Memories]

Mephiston in a dual raven list is fine, even if you drop a dread. The point of a 2 raven list is threat saturation, not armor saturation. This means that, inherently, it's going to give up some weaknesses to close range melta fire, of which usually there is plenty. A major issue with dreadnoughts is not their close combat prowess, but what happens after they wipe out an enemy squad. While mine always get their points back, they almost always die. Running 2 dreadnoughts is great if you can do it, but mephiston is exceptional as well.

 

I'd also agree a 2 raven list DOES NOT require mephiston, and in my opinion is by far the most competitive of the lists that do not run him. 2 raven/doa is a very strong list at 2k, though not one you're going to see at many tournaments for various reasons (none having to do with the competitiveness of the list).

 

All DOA lists are ok but they tend to not have enough hammer for my tastes, or my meta (lots of paladin/deathwing lists that DoA bounces off of). So because of personal experiences I'm counting that off.

 

I'm not at all a fan of razorspam, especially sans mephiston. There is a reason it has 0 major tournament wins. I don't feel its a particularly strong way to setup a list, it simply takes advantage of other armies that can struggle against it. Lots of armies do MSU better than Blood Angels. Razorspam takes advantage of the mobile firepower advantage, but not the close combat advantage. I feel like the razorspam list, however, would be significantly more powerful with mephiston in it. I get the idea that dropping the shield sucks, but honestly you're only going to get a few tanks into that 6 inch bubble off a razorback anyways. A 5+ cover save is a much bigger deal on something tough like a land raider where it's a struggle to get a pen to begin with than on a razorback where it's probably been penetrated 3 times by long fangs or a psyfleman/rainman dread. Don't get me wrong I've lost to a hot-handed DE player who made all his flickerfield saves, but the odds of that happening are extremely low. I was just--fortunate to see it i guess.

[Morticon]

wonder if Tamwulf (the OP) still reads this thread :tu:

[Vilicate]

wonder if Tamwulf (the OP) still reads this thread ;)

 

Probably, he posted on the last page.

 

He's probably just sick of getting whooped on by my Necrons. :P

[Crynn]

Meph is really quite an amazing characer. I don't play my BAs without him if I'm going ball to the wall. As for this mind shakle scarab thing sure you can make him attack himself however you cannot make him take the force weapon psychic test in order for him to force weapon himself. 2nd to that you are so fast and necrons have no psychic defence to stop him with that if you dont want to engage the lord you don't have to. Necrons actually have very little answer for Meph.

 

I also wrote an article on 3++ relating to using Mephiston against Grey Knights, he is actually quite good against them, it might not seem so on paper but I have played them countless times with Meph and never lost, the chances of him getting force weaponed are low only 33% fromthe average GK unit and that is once they ahve wounded him which they generally only do on 6's, this presumes he didn't whipe them otu first. Anyway if you want to know more about that just search my name on 3++ at is quite in depth and got a good response.

 

Mephs greatest asset is actually his speed, there are plenty of other beater units in the game, none of which are as self contained as Meph and that's what makes him so powerfull, he doesn't need a retinue or a transport, just one of those vehicles you already take to hide behind.

 

Mephiston plays expodentially better in a better players hands, he is much more a scalpel than a sledge hammer despite what people think.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Canis Majoris]

No matter how hard something is theres allways something to trump it in one way or another...

 

Mephi does kick ass...but he's far from unkillable infact...he's pretty damn fragile for such an expensive character.

 

And theres pretty much something in every army that would kick the crap out of him.

 

I played my nids army against BA allot and after 4-5 battles of the same result my friend stopped taking mephi against me altogether.

 

For starters hes a CC monster...so against nids thats just what we want...someone who WANTS to get close to us for once!.

He has no invun...which for me personally....i would not consider a character unit of any kind without an invun unless it was sooo cheap that it did'nt matter losing it.

He is not imune to instand death...his most fatal flaw...you might think oh wait...t6...can't get instant deathed even by a str 10 battlecannon but as i was nids...i had plenty to insta kill him without worrying about his toughness...

 

His powers are easily mitigated...remove his ability to fly and his other powers and he's allot less lethal...he rely's to much on luck of the roll.

 

For example mephi is no match for a swarmlord in cc...i've never come close to losing to him when we get in that situation...1 hit from the sw and bye bye mephi.

I've beaten him with a standard hive tyrant a few times.

I've nuked him down with zoanthropes, even hive guard...oh wait hes hiding behind a tank...pfft just shoot around it!

 

Now i'm not saying never take mephi he's a great character but its this element of fear that he instills in players thats most effective. Its really quite remarkable how he can cause this fear in people soon as they hear his name, but if you go up against him all the time you learn how to deal with him then you realise its not much of a problem the enemy is allways bringing a really expensive char that once you learn how, is'nt much of a problem.

 

Anyways to all you ba players who love mephi...use him dont use him...just dont expect him to allways be a deadly killing machine that always gives results everytime.

 

I mean heck...throw arjak rocksfists foehammer at mephi...knock him down to I1....jotww...dead mephi virtually guaranteed. Or just throw the hammer at him...charge him with the terminator pack...thunder hammers power fists etc...even on mephi...2's to would no save...he will die...sure you'll lose models to but mephi will be dead.

 

Just my thoughts on this subject.

 

Oh...and ignore anything you see online when people say theres a 33% chance of this or that or anything that shows you "statistics" ... statistics only work if all the variables are static...but with the roll of a dice...they arn't.

[breng77]

Oh...and ignore anything you see online when people say theres a 33% chance of this or that or anything that shows you "statistics" ... statistics only work if all the variables are static...but with the roll of a dice...they arn't.

 

Dude 33% chance = probability not statistics, and it is math that deals with random chance. What 33% chance means 1/3rd of the time something should happen. So essentially 1 in every 3 times x occurs, x will be successful. The problem with probability when it comes to warhammer is that the sample size is too small, and it does not tell you the order in which that 1 time will occur. Essentially in the example above if you were to try to force weapon Mephy with GKs you would succeed 1 out of 3 times. This does not mean it won't happen the first time you roll for the force weapon. In addition for that probability to occur said event needs to occur hundreds or thousands of times. (I.e. if you rolled 100 times, the first 33 could be success, followed by 67 failures).

 

Lastly I think you are missing what most people are saying about Mephiston (though I don't fear him all that much really), people are not saying he is an answer to everything, just that he is an answer to lots of things. Against the swarmlord he should lose (as I assume you are also paying for Guards, and at that point are running 100+ points more expensive), hive guard killing him is highly unlikely (a squad of 3 should average less than 1 wound per round of shooting) The other player also has elements in his/her army to deal with the things that threaten mephiston.

 

I also find it funny that you say that you would not pay for a character unit without an invul save, and then you play nids who have no character models (save Doom) with invulsaves (yes Swarmlord has one in CC, but why is your opponent fighting him in CC, you shoot him until he falls over. While mephiston goes and deals with things like hive guard, Tervigons, and other squishier targets.

[Bartali]

I'd be interested to here from the Mephiston players as to where his strengths lie. I'm still wracking up more lists/units he's a bad match up against rather than good ones :-

 

Thunderwolf Lords

TH/SS Terminators

Tyranids

Mech Eldar

Shooty MSU lists

Horde lists

Grey Knights

 

Good against :-

 

Rank and file non-MSU MEQ ?

[knife&fork]

I'd be interested to here from the Mephiston players as to where his strengths lie. I'm still wracking up more lists/units he's a bad match up against rather than good ones :-

 

Thunderwolf Lords

TH/SS Terminators

Tyranids

Mech Eldar

Shooty MSU lists

Horde lists

Grey Knights

 

Good against :-

 

Rank and file non-MSU MEQ ?

 

Have you read Crynn's article on 3++? I think it will answer a lot of your questions.

[Morticon]

I'd be interested to here from the Mephiston players as to where his strengths lie. I'm still wracking up more lists/units he's a bad match up against rather than good ones :-

 

Thunderwolf Lords

TH/SS Terminators

Tyranids

Mech Eldar

Shooty MSU lists

Horde lists

Grey Knights

 

Good against :-

 

Rank and file non-MSU MEQ ?

 

Have you read Crynn's article on 3++? I think it will answer a lot of your questions.

 

 

Well, in the interest of promoting and developing our community can we get a repost of the highlights? Sounds super interesting.

[knife&fork]

Well, in the interest of promoting and developing our community can we get a repost of the highlights? Sounds super interesting.

 

Use his superior mobility to engage the stuff you want to kill and stay away from the things he'll have a hard time dealing with.

 

A lot of the things people think will kick Mephistons butt actually has very low chances of doing so once you start crunching numbers.

 

Use a supporting unit to give him cover saves or park them in base 2 base with dangerous stuff like hammers and force weapons in CC so you opponent can't allocate those attacks on Memphy.

[Morticon]

Use a supporting unit to give him cover saves or park them in base 2 base with dangerous stuff like hammers and force weapons in CC so you opponent can't allocate those attacks on Mephy.

 

 

Thats one of the tactics I use! Its what helped me win the game vs. a grey knight player in the SA Nationals semi final.

[Canis Majoris]

Oh...and ignore anything you see online when people say theres a 33% chance of this or that or anything that shows you "statistics" ... statistics only work if all the variables are static...but with the roll of a dice...they arn't.

 

Dude 33% chance = probability not statistics, and it is math that deals with random chance. What 33% chance means 1/3rd of the time something should happen. So essentially 1 in every 3 times x occurs, x will be successful. The problem with probability when it comes to warhammer is that the sample size is too small, and it does not tell you the order in which that 1 time will occur. Essentially in the example above if you were to try to force weapon Mephy with GKs you would succeed 1 out of 3 times. This does not mean it won't happen the first time you roll for the force weapon. In addition for that probability to occur said event needs to occur hundreds or thousands of times. (I.e. if you rolled 100 times, the first 33 could be success, followed by 67 failures).

 

Lastly I think you are missing what most people are saying about Mephiston (though I don't fear him all that much really), people are not saying he is an answer to everything, just that he is an answer to lots of things. Against the swarmlord he should lose (as I assume you are also paying for Guards, and at that point are running 100+ points more expensive), hive guard killing him is highly unlikely (a squad of 3 should average less than 1 wound per round of shooting) The other player also has elements in his/her army to deal with the things that threaten mephiston.

 

I also find it funny that you say that you would not pay for a character unit without an invul save, and then you play nids who have no character models (save Doom) with invulsaves (yes Swarmlord has one in CC, but why is your opponent fighting him in CC, you shoot him until he falls over. While mephiston goes and deals with things like hive guard, Tervigons, and other squishier targets.

 

You just answered the question for me...the fact is whats the point in saying of the math says theres a 33% or 1 in 3 chance when as you say...you could roll ten fails in a row or 10 successes. my point is people should'nt play by probability. its totally 100% meaningless at the time when your actually rolling a dice theres is no law or math that can tell you what your roll of a dice at that moment you roll to insta kill mephi will be regardless of the odds or the probability. So why bother working this all out its a game its fun who cares about the probabilitys. It should be enough to just look at the situation ingame and think...yeah...chances are i probably won't win here...but i might...and you go for it.

 

things happen "against the odds" all the time in everyday life...so throw the damn odds out the window i say who needs them. Like you said the only time the odds come into it is if you do that thing 10000000000x and take the average...yeah great on a maths paper...totally 100% meaningless on a gaming board when you only have 1 chance to roll.

 

And yes obviously as i also play nids which is known for not having many inv saves then derrr of course i'm going to have characters without an inv save with nids you dont have any other choice. My other army is Space wolves and yes i'd never take a character model without an inv save of some sort however good or bad.

[breng77]

I disagree that they are totally meaningless, they are simply not the be all end all of decision making. What they do tell you is if "in general" you are making a smart decision. Much of this you can learn simply through playing and learning from mistakes. i.e. math will tell you that a single genestealer is unlikely to kill mephiston, and so given the choice of assaulting him, or running to an objective in cover, you can make the right decision (as far as is possible). Now playing the game enough and having experience will tell you the same thing, and is really the better way to learn, but unfourtunately we all don't get to play enough games. It comes down to yes on the table top anything is possible, but not everything is likely, and if you roll poorly any army can lose regardless of how few mistakes you make. I have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory due to making perfectly good choices, but the dice don't turn out. While this is always possible, you cannot kick yourself for making high probability choices, and then failing. If on the otherhand you consistently make low probability choices chances are you will lose more often then not. (That is not to say that there are times where you need to try hail mary moves, but it is not sound gameplay)

[Canis Majoris]

Why does maths have to come into it at all?

 

A single stealer will never beat mephi 1 on 1...ever...its just not going to happen. why turn everything into maths? unless your a maths geek who looks at hte probabilty in everything...

[JamesI]

Lets avoid making this into another "Mathhammer sucks" "No Mathhammer rules" debate.

[HERO]

OK. Let me break some stuff down for the Mephiston people. I'll compare him directly to double-Libby since they're the same cost. For some reason, a lot of these examples were BRIEFLY touched upon and the rebuttal was always "but wouldn't a list be better with Mephiston?" The answer is No. Here's why (going from what I listed earlier):

 

-Squad support in the form of Unleash Rage.

Does Mephsiton do it for squads? No, he does it for himself. If you take 2 Libbies, they can do it for 2 squads. Mephiston does it for neither. Take Meph and a Libby and you're spending 250 on top of another 125 for a total of 375 points spent on HQ alone. Some might consider that not using your points well at the 1500-1750 mark. Unleash Rage also works on your opponents turn - having it benefit squads over 1-man is infinitely stronger at keeping bigger squads alive and bailing you out of combat so you can assault again on your turn.

 

-Shield.

Mephiston doesn't have this, at all. Taking Meph and a Libby is a lot of points spent. Taking 2x Libby with 2x Shields is literally 24" of shooting 5+ cover if you extend it all the way.

 

-Two models that can be at two places.

 

Mephiston can only be at one place at a time. Sure, he's a beast when he gets there, but what if he doesn't? 2 HQs might be an answer, but not always the right answer. 2 libbies supporting your troops and making your full squads of ASM lethal in combat with Unleash Rage and dangerous vs. everything Sanguine Sword is coverage, whether you admit it or not.

 

-No psychic tests when flying.

 

In my last game vs. Necrons, I flew once. Not because of psychic protection, but because I rolled like butt. This isn't the first time it's happened either. When I need Meph to intercept a squad of INSERT ENEMY HERE, sometimes he fails his leadership and I'm stuck walking. That's part of your strategy interrupted by SHEER LUCK. I HATE that. Sorry for the caps but I want to make something perfectly clear: Mephiston is dependent on psychic tests. If a Rune Priest says no, you're walking to where you want to go. That's the end of. The same applies to his killing power and his ability to tackle bigger targets. If you get canned or don't roll what's needed, that's a huge part of your plan going to waste.

 

-Could have two Sanguine Swords! (multiple powers, more coverage)

 

I don't think anyone will argue more coverage? Anyone? Mephiston is very selfish power wise. He will dominate you in CC and with his psychic abilities, but in terms of actual knowledge, he has a very limited pool. Even 2 hoods, spread across the battlefield is IMMENSE coverage compared to 1 Meph in price. Sure, buy 2 HQs, solve that issue, but do I really need to say it again? BUY 2 HQs. Buy being the keyword.

 

-Always think price: 2 for 1 Meph!

 

The "buy" factor finally clicked in for some people.

 

-Can't be picked out by shooting when in big squad.

 

It can happen if you play poorly, but the fact remains that it can happen.

 

-Less of a target/imprint.

 

2 Libbies aren't as valuable as main targets. This can be a good thing or bad thing, but either or can work to your advantage as a Blood Angels player. 2 squads configured the same way with 2 Libbies offer the same amount of threat. Mephiston coming behind a tank is a threat by himself. Both are valid threats, but which one your opponent needs to worry about is 100% based on mission, matchup and your list.

 

I certainly hope I made myself more clear.

[Tamwulf]

The replies so far have been interesting to say the least. For those that think Blood Angels can only be played one way, please try some of the other fantastic builds suggested here. Playing different lists and exploring for yourself is how you become great at 40K. For sure, taking someone's word on an internet forum that this is the best list/only way to play an army is definitely wrong.

 

It's obvious some people play in a uber competitive environment- an environment where 2 librarians, 4 ASM's with Razorbacks, 3 Baals, and 3 Preds is the only way to play. Others, not so much. Anyone that has ever played me outside of a tournament has never played the same list twice. I'm constantly changing my list, exploring options, and trying new things. This is what's fun to me about 40K.

 

I don't really care too much if I win or lose. Winning is nice, but losing gracefully takes more character.

 

This list:

 

Thunderwolf Lords

TH/SS Terminators

Tyranids

Mech Eldar

Shooty MSU lists

Horde lists

Grey Knights

 

..doesn't concern me. A Thunderwolf Lord will never be by himself, so why should Mephiston? TH/SS Termys- that's an even trade, if we're talking 5 vs. 1 Mephiston. Again, why would I go for an even fight? I'd bring along a squad. I'd definitely shoot them up a bit before they got into Close Combat. You could also bet that TH/SS squad is an "eggs all in one basket" type squad.

 

After this, we are talking army type vs. army type, in which case it's what else I bring with Mephiston that matters, not that I just have Mephiston.

[HERO]

So where did all the Mephiston lovers go after my post?

[Morticon]

So where did all the Mephiston lovers go after my post?

 

Dont take it personally, matey.

 

Its not an "us vs them" situation - its just people sharing views.

 

You offered a finite and set group of views with highlightable points, and others took took those points to task.

Standard discourse!

;)

[Tamwulf]

So where did all the Mephiston lovers go after my post?

This was never about "Take Mephiston FTW!" and you presented some great lists and arguments for not taking him. Booyah! Thank you. For my metagame and the opponents I face, taking Mephiston works and is pretty fun. I wanted to explore that particular facet of Blood Angel list making.

 

Hero, you stood on your Soapbox and loudly and proudly proclaimed why taking Mephiston is a bad idea, and backed it up with cookie cutter list after cookie cutter list and why two Librarians is always better. Thank you for your first post! Your final post though, seems to smack of trolling. Are you looking for some kind of vindication? For someone to say you are right, taking Mephiston is a bad idea, and you should always take two Librarians instead? I'm not going to say it, but I am sure you influenced at least one of the 2450 viewers of this thread and convinced them. Like most things on the interwebs, don't expect someone to say "Thank You", and you should look elsewhere for self gratification.

 

I consider this thread closed; objective complete. Good luck everyone, whether you use Mephiston or not, have fun in your games! It's all about pushing little toy soldiers around on a make believe battlefield and having fun with others that do the same thing. Never forget that! B)

[HERO]

Can you please point out where I said taking 2 Librarians is always better than Mephiston? Please link the quote.

 

Also, did you really make a point about cookie cutter lists? My mixed jumpers + 3/3 is not even close to a cookie cutter list. All jumpers would be more effective in the same reason all mech would be more effective. Mine is a hybrid of the two which makes it pretty un-cookie cutter, but yet I believe 2 Libbies is still better than Mephiston.

 

I will stand upon my box and proclaim the reasons why I think Mephiston is not always needed. I will make that damn point clear as possible because it took 5 pages for it to be heard. I hardly see that as trolling, if anything, it's a failure to connect with who I'm typing to because the majority didn't seem to understand what I was talking about.

[JamesI]

Tanwulf, there is no need to accuse Hero of trolling.

 

There is a simple disagreement among posters over Mephiston versus 2 Librarians. Both will probably work,I think the 2 libbies work better in a list like Hero's, Mephiston better in some lists.

 

Lets keep it from getting personal.

[Blitzkrieg861]

He's not wrong though, James. The first post listed some strong arguements as to why he felt two Libbies was stronger but the second post was calling people out in a confrontational way. I'm really not too sure how you cannot see that and it certainly wasn't necissary. I can see how in a hybrid or jumpers list that yes, I would feel that 2 Libbies would be stronger and I do infact take at least 1 Libby when I play a jump list. This isn't because I feel Libbies are better than Meph, simply that they are better in this situation.

 

However, I personally feel Mephiston is stronger for my pure mech list. I've tried Libbies and I just can't count on a 5+ save and they offer nothing else to my army outside of that (4 x 5 ASM squads with no upgrades doesn't benefit much at all from having preferred enemy). He is a legit counter assault threat and throwing him forward aggressively takes pressure off of my tanks. I couldn't care less than most games Mephy is dead by the 4th or 5th turn. He's done his job. If he soaks up 2 turns of most my opponent's firepower then he did his job.

 

I think we all have to keep in mind this is all about opinion. A person's opinion can't be right or wrong, it simply is.

[JamesI]

Blitz, the post I believe you are referring to was not really necessary, but I wouldn't consider it trolling. There are other posts in this thread I would consider far closer to trolling.

 

You d0 make what I think is a good point Blitz. The 5+ cover save issue. Posters who feel that Shield is weak or can't be counted on prefer Mephiston. Posters who like the cover save power prefer librarians. It seems pretty much that simple to me.