Mephiston

[breng77]

Actually the power I like best (that mephy does not have) is Fear the Darkness. Any power which can potentially kill enitre units with one shot is extremely strong.

[HERO]

However, I personally feel Mephiston is stronger for my pure mech list. I've tried Libbies and I just can't count on a 5+ save and they offer nothing else to my army outside of that (4 x 5 ASM squads with no upgrades doesn't benefit much at all from having preferred enemy). He is a legit counter assault threat and throwing him forward aggressively takes pressure off of my tanks. I couldn't care less than most games Mephy is dead by the 4th or 5th turn. He's done his job. If he soaks up 2 turns of most my opponent's firepower then he did his job.

 

I think we all have to keep in mind this is all about opinion. A person's opinion can't be right or wrong, it simply is.

 

So you'd rather not have any cover than a 5+ cover save? or... am I missing the point?

 

You're under the impression your opponents are shooting at Meph and not your vehicles (in which case they're probably playing wrong).

 

The first post listed some strong arguements as to why he felt two Libbies was stronger but the second post was calling people out in a confrontational way. I'm really not too sure how you cannot see that and it certainly wasn't necissary.

 

I guess calling people out is by calling people Mephiston people. How else would you call them out? There's 2 sides here: "1 list with Meph" and the other list "without". Don't get offended, that wasn't my intent.

 

You d0 make what I think is a good point Blitz. The 5+ cover save issue. Posters who feel that Shield is weak or can't be counted on prefer Mephiston. Posters who like the cover save power prefer librarians. It seems pretty much that simple to me.

 

No man, not even remotely close to that simple. Unleash Rage for 2 full squads of ASM does SO much more than 1 mince-meater target magnet. 2 Hoods instead of 1, 2 Sanguine Swords instead of 1, or access to Shields. Or the ability to fly without a test. Or having a larger coverage on a smaller footprint. The ability to move in transports or be in any unit composition.

 

I think this is exactly the reason why people are so lost in this thread. You ignore 90% of the argument and just say: Shields

 

That's just depressing for me as a long-time B&C supporter.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Hero, no one is disputing that Unleash Rage used on two full squads of Assault Marines (tooled with a Power Fist and hopefully a Sanguinary Priest with Power Weapon) is going to have a more lasting and devastating effect than just Mephiston by himself. Like I posted above, when I use jump infantry I will bring a Libby, sometimes two of them. This, however, is not taking into account that to make those two full squads of Assault Marines with Priests are going to cost your 250pts in Librarians plus another 600+ points for the two squads with priests attached. This isn't a bad thing, don't get me wrong, it does however dictate how you are going to build the rest of your list. For my list, I've tried a Libby before and I don't really like it. Maybe I should give it another shot, maybe not. I've used Meph in the same list and I find that he performs better with the list. This is the list I like most of all the mech shooty armies I've tried so far... Meph has worked for me in it.

 

Mephiston

3 x 5 ASM w/ Razorback armed w/ TL-AC

8 DC w/ PF, IP and LRR w/ MM and EA

3x Baal w/ TL-AC and HB Sponsons

Pred w/ AC and LC Sponsons

 

I'm doing a little bit of a hybrid type thing I suppose. I have a lot of shooting and two nasty units in close combat... DC and Mephy. No matter what aspect you want to focus on, one of them is going to get to do their job. Mephy allows me a unit that is hard to get LOS to with all the armor I have and hits like a brick house against nearly any target he is thrown against; and while yes Wings could be psychic hooded, this hasn't been a problem for me as of yet. And I'm not sure why this isn't being taken into account for when talking about two Librarians rather than Mephiston. Maybe not all the time for Shield but Unleash Rage will more than likely be cast when within 24" of an enemy psycher just as Meph might be with Wings. Chance on both sides are present.

 

I tried Librarians but I felt as though I was paying 100pts for a 5+ cover save? Really?... it could be great, it could be nothing. Mephy will never not bash the crap out of something or soak up a fair amount of firepower before dieing. You can rely on this much. Even with no powers he still has fleet so he can keep up with most of the army decently and S6 power weapon is nothing to scoff at. Taking Mephiston out, in my list especially, takes out a key element of the assaulting mop up crew in my opinion. I need those guys (DC and Mephy) to clean up whatever is damaged by my shooting or just send them to decimate most full strength units as they can do both very well.

 

You'll notice, unlike most Razor builds you'll see suggested, I don't take Las Plas. I don't take a Twin-Linked Lascannon either. I take a Twin-Linked Assault Cannon. Why? It's reliable. 4 Shots, re-rolling misses. Any of these shots can be power weapons or penetrating AV 14. I can count on these to do something for me everytime. This is the same reason I take Mephiston. He fills a roll I am missing in my army and he is going to contribue something every single game I play him in one manner or another. I don't like leaving things to chance. Flamers hit automatically, this is one reason I don't take a Godhammer or Crusader. Flamer don't allow cover saves either. Reliable. Power Weapons, Rending and S6 AP 3 Flamers take a lot of luck out of the equation. That's what it's all about for me. Things I can count on. 33% chance is not something I can count on. Now if you could stack shield or something like that....

[JamesI]

Sorry to have oversimplified your argument, Hero. That was not my intention (I actually agree with you on this).

[Vilicate]

I don't like taking him because I don't like spending that many points on one model.

 

I'd rather have more dudes.

[knife&fork]

I don't like to take Librarians because it's a lynchpin unit with average stats, only 2 wounds and no inv save. Same reason I minimize priests. Your opponent will know that they are key units and they will probably get sniped quickly.

 

2 hoods.... how many psykers do you have to cover at once? I rarely have the luxury of spreading out anyway. Playing an elite army means you'll have to concentrate your attacks to avoid getting dragged down by superior numbers.

 

Unleash rage... sure it works in every turn, but it doesn't matter when your lib gets sniped in the first round of combat. Not a huge plus, but Mephiston gets transfixing gaze "for free" which can be very powerful.

 

Shield... Good but overrated. 5+ cover is not something you can count on to save you from any serious shooting.

 

Nor argument that a plain jump pack is superior to a psychic power for moving around, but at least Mephiston can fleet and use any transport.

 

Sword is a very good power for regular librarians, taking it usually means giving up rage though. And while S10 @ I4 is good but S10 @ I7 is even better.

[AbusePuppy]

I don't like to take Librarians because it's a lynchpin unit with average stats, only 2 wounds and no inv save. Same reason I minimize priests. Your opponent will know that they are key units and they will probably get sniped quickly.

 

Are you saying that a Librarian, at half the cost with IC status and the ability to hide in a transport, is more of a linchpin than Mephiston is? Because that's a pretty weird argument. A Libby doesn't have to get into combat to do its job; Mephiston does. If you're worried about them dying, leave them in the transport or stick them at the back of the squad. If your opponent is so desperate to kill them that they shoot their whole army at the squad with the Librarian in it, go to ground and then smash them with the rest of your army.

 

They aren't "key units," the army functions just fine without them, they're just useful. That's a very important distinction. Linchpins are bad, force multipliers are good.

[knife&fork]

Are you saying that a Librarian, at half the cost with IC status and the ability to hide in a transport, is more of a linchpin than Mephiston is? Because that's a pretty weird argument. A Libby doesn't have to get into combat to do its job; Mephiston does. If you're worried about them dying, leave them in the transport or stick them at the back of the squad. If your opponent is so desperate to kill them that they shoot their whole army at the squad with the Librarian in it, go to ground and then smash them with the rest of your army.

 

You can stick Meph in a transport too. And you don't have to dedicate an entire army's worth of shooting to take care of a T4 2W model without an inv.

BA libs excel on the offensive, the place where they are most vulnerable.

 

They aren't "key units," the army functions just fine without them, they're just useful. That's a very important distinction. Linchpins are bad, force multipliers are good.

 

A force multiplier is a key unit.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Linchpin implies they are a boss in melee which you've stated they aren't. So probably your terminology confused people. If they've got furious charge they are pretty good in melee depending on what they're up against. Two hoods are better for providing redundancy than coverage. I'm surprised more people don't take Fear... It's great... I'd rather have that than Shield.

[AbusePuppy]

Linchpin implies they are a boss in melee which you've stated they aren't.

Actually what it means is that the unit in question is a critical piece of the army in question and that it can't function, or at least functions very poorly, without that unit.

 

I'm surprised more people don't take Fear... It's great... I'd rather have that than Shield.

SHield is really good for mechanized lists because it gives your front rank of tanks a cover save. Fear is pretty good too, though; it's just that being a shooting power, you usually have to get out of your ride to use it, which 5man squads don't really want to do. I pretty much always take it on my Terminator Libby, though- it's great for chasing deathstars and heavy weapon units off the field.

 

You can stick Meph in a transport too. And you don't have to dedicate an entire army's worth of shooting to take care of a T4 2W model without an inv.

Sure, if the transport is empty. Probably not going to happen in the early turns of the game, though.

 

If you leave your Librarian sitting alone without a unit to shield him, you deserve exactly what you get. Being an IC is a huge strength because it allows you to give him basically as many ablative wounds as you have other models in your army.

 

A force multiplier is a key unit.

Only if the army relies on it. Which most Razorback lists really don't; he's there because you have to take an HQ and he's the right combination of cheaper/more useful than the other choices. You run him for exactly the same reasons that SM takes their Libbies and DE takes Haemos.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That is true about the definition of a linchpin - an individual vital to an enterprise or organization. Still I think it can confuse people.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Lynch-pin.jpg

 

 

G :lol:

[Morticon]

Hero, I had taken a step back from commenting at your long post (and others') because it looked at though people were getting/taking things a bit personally.

 

My bad if that wasnt the case and you were just looking for honest and sensible discourse.

 

I'll try go over some thoughts on your comments.

 

 

Firstly to one of your main points regarding unleash rage - its a great power.

No argument.

And for the longest time I used a libby in an 8 man RAS with Corbs (in a rhino though).

Its even better when used with units that have multiple special weapons like DC and Termies.

However, you are talking about jumping libby so ill stick there.

 

 

It also starts off the main issue I have with your line of thought/argument.

 

I believe you're taking two units and comparing them in a vacuum. The amount of damage a jump pack squad with a Libby can do with Rage (mathhammer and the actual difference aside) is not as important considering what state they will be in when they get there.

 

A libby joining an existing squad that is already registering on the threat assessment list of the enemy is only serving to make it more of a target**. So, every small arm available, and every pie plate or template available will be coming the way of those jumpers. What state will they arrive in when they do arrive? There was a game vs. crons in the last tourney i played, where Mephiston jumped out into the open, he failed a decent run roll and was stuck there.

The enemy cron player now had the choice of trying to kill him, or focus on vehicles, and then hope to get the stuff out, and then focus on the stuff in there. He (Wisely?) went for mephy.

Mephiston soaked up 6 units worth of firing. This would not have been the case with the libby/squad. They would have taken heavy casualties.

 

Mephy, for the cost of 125 points more, provides an additional target to saturate your opponents choices and is far more likely to survive at full efficiency going in.

 

Thats not even addressing the issue irony about mephy needing wings to be where hes going. Could the same exact argument not be used with the Libbies support role? You need to roll and pass to be as effective as youd like? '(Also not going into the fact that Meph can easily steal a transport and leave a lowly RAS on home plate to do what they do best, or the fact that Corbs is available in a pinch). I don't debate your point about wings though. Its what cost me the South African national title this year. One failed roll. However, a libby with jump squad, or even two, would have much less of a difference.

 

 

You mentioned a lot of other good points too. But, I feel a few of your examples are very specific and situational regarding the powers that are taken. We can only take two, and we can only cast one a turn (standard libs). So, examples of rage, and fear and shield and sword in various cases are a bit misleading. Every case you raise is adequate, and is a great gaming point, but as said, just a bit misleading- because if we're doing the one thing, we're not doing the other.

 

Two swords in two places is great- but then you're not casting rage are you? Which somewhat invalidates the argument above.

Not to mention that as nice as sword is- against so many things,that libby is going to come up short being a T4, 2W model with no Inv save. You can try place him well for the charge, but that doesnt mean you're automatically not going to get a hidden fist in the face. I do get the protection tactic, but there are ways around it. And then what? Force multiplier and Kill Point gone.

 

Two hoods in two places is a great point. But, honestly, how often do you need two? In standard sized games especially.

Theres also a general tactical question in that if we're needing two, we may be splitting up more than we should be.

 

Shield- no contest. You said it all.

Great power if you believe the 5+s are worth it (which is why so many people over summarized libs vs. meph argument.)

Personally, I rarely am in a situation where I will need a 5+ since I already have a 4++ or a 3++ on my vehicles. Also, since you like rage/sword, it begs the question of where Shield comes in. In addition to that I believe the 1/3rd of the time that the power works on an attack may not be enough for me to discount the fact that Mephy alone- the very inclusion of him in my list, makes my opponents play differently.

 

You mentioned that if your opponent is shooting at mephy in your army, not the vehicles, then he's playing wrong. This may be the case, but in a situation where Mephy can target, attack and snipe certain units due to his threat range, I think its easier said that done. Case in point with my ork game last tourney, where I threw Mephy away to snipe the two dangerous ICs in an ork mob and then kill half the squad itself. Theres another example of where the Orks had loads of firepower to whittle down standard troopers, but nothing (and no LOS) to take on mephy.

 

 

 

For me, it boils down to the fact that for 125 points more than what you spend on 1 Libby, I can have a unit that completely wrecks stuff, and can wreck stuff under all but the direst of circumstances and takes enough threat away from the rest of my list to keep it working.

 

I have a unit that can get into the heart of the enemy, is a bigger threat, is a bigger target, yet is tiny enough to be completely invisible on the battlefield. He is small enough to sneak his way into that pouncing position. And he has fleet, meaning that a smart opponent has to keep an additional 6"away from him with his units of interest, where a libby and squad need 6" less and risk being shot to hell since they are much more difficult to be kept hidden till you reach that sweet 18" point. (Good examples of this are in the Ork game the Zerker game and the GK game of mine last tournie- i use that as an example cause its freshest in my mind, and im drawing from anecdotal experience)

 

So, those are my thoughts of why I am in agreement of the OP (which some other posters have missed the point on- not that Mephy is the bestest greatest guy in the whole world, but) - that I have a tough time not taking Mephiston

 

 

** Big props and acknowledgement for this quote of yours as a caveat to the aforementioned->

2 Libbies aren't as valuable as main targets. This can be a good thing or bad thing, but either or can work to your advantage as a Blood Angels player. 2 squads configured the same way with 2 Libbies offer the same amount of threat. Mephiston coming behind a tank is a threat by himself. Both are valid threats, but which one your opponent needs to worry about is 100% based on mission, matchup and your list.

[Morticon]

I think we all have to keep in mind this is all about opinion. A person's opinion can't be right or wrong, it simply is.

 

Completely off topic, and not an attack in anyway, but I have to correct this quick - for the sake of sanity and future issues that may arise in subsequent threads.

 

That's completely false.

 

A person's opinions can very, very, very definitely be wrong.

 

The difference is, we're entitled to them. If through discourse we are proven our opinion to be contrary to what is in actuality the case, and we wish to maintain our opinion, then so be it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, wrong or right.

 

But, don't for a second fall into the trap of believing opinions are not wrong or right.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...an%20Be%20Wrong

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...06115414AAJ5uDZ

(first two answers there)

[knife&fork]

If you leave your Librarian sitting alone without a unit to shield him, you deserve exactly what you get. Being an IC is a huge strength because it allows you to give him basically as many ablative wounds as you have other models in your army.

 

Who has suggested that's a good idea? There are shooting attacks and psychic power that targets models rather than units, and then there's getting sniped in CC thanks to being an IC.

[Blitzkrieg861]

LOL Mort, of allllll the things I wrote that the one you want to nitpick on? That made me smile, bro :lol:

 

You raise some good points in your posts as well though.

[AbusePuppy]

Still I think it can confuse people.

...How is that definition confusing, except to people who don't know the meaning of a fairly common word?

 

 

Who has suggested that's a good idea? There are shooting attacks and psychic power that targets models rather than units, and then there's getting sniped in CC thanks to being an IC.

You're right, there are three models with shooting attacks and two psychic powers that can pick out individuals from a squad to inflict wounds on them. These abilities, however, are the exceptions, not the rule, and all of the units in question pay for them (and several of them are unreliable.) 99% of the time, you get to pick whether your Librarian is taking a wound.

 

Again, for the CC thing you can just leave him in the van. A Libby still does most of what you want sitting inside a transport; Mephiston does not.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Some people here seemed to get it confused so I'll let my point stand. It's not a big deal anyways ...

 

G :D

[knife&fork]

You're right, there are three models with shooting attacks and two psychic powers that can pick out individuals from a squad to inflict wounds on them. These abilities, however, are the exceptions, not the rule, and all of the units in question pay for them (and several of them are unreliable.) 99% of the time, you get to pick whether your Librarian is taking a wound.

 

Again, for the CC thing you can just leave him in the van. A Libby still does most of what you want sitting inside a transport; Mephiston does not.

 

There's a few more of them than that.

 

BA usually don't field that many rhinos and neither razorbacks, storm ravens nor landraiders have firing ports. So how much of a force multiplier is he going to be stuck inside a transport? He'll have "shield" and he'll have the hood and those can come in use. Doesn't change the fact that he's too damn fragile when you put him where he belongs: at the front. A terminator libby or furioso on the other hand...

[the jeske]

may I add one thing. If mefiston is a treat alone and a libby can never run alone and always runs with a squad then on unit per unit cost mefiston does not cost more . In fact he may well cost less. a lone libby is a dead libby mefiston can at least draw the fire of a lot of armies to himself for a turn .

[Zhukov]

What Jeske says is very true. Some people only mention that it's an advantage that a Libby can hide in a squad, but this should be read as: A Libby *must* hide in a squad.

 

It's the reason what makes playing BA so easy for me, I can play them in the same way as Chaos; Mephy replaces the role of 2 winged Daemon Princes. It's really nice to have a flying monster which you can force your oppenent to deal with when you want to, to take the pressure of the rest of your army more or less for a turn. No army can afford to ignore Mephiston after all...

[AbusePuppy]

There's a few more of them than that.

Are there? I'd be curious to hear which ones. I guess if you count the "hits models not units" effects like JotWW, the Necron Portal, Warp Rift, and Shattershard that's a few more, but it's really a quite rare ability; I generally play entire tournaments without even encountering it once. Telion, Vindicare, Command Barge, Mind War, Blood Boil. Only one of them is (well, will be, I suppose) a common pick and most of them will still allow some kind or another of save.

 

 

BA usually don't field that many rhinos and neither razorbacks, storm ravens nor landraiders have firing ports. So how much of a force multiplier is he going to be stuck inside a transport? He'll have "shield" and he'll have the hood and those can come in use. Doesn't change the fact that he's too damn fragile when you put him where he belongs: at the front. A terminator libby or furioso on the other hand...

Shield is his main force multiplier; making your front line of tanks 33% more resilient can be a really big deal.

 

Maybe you think he belongs at the front, but perhaps that's also why you have no success with them. Mephy? Yes, Mephy belongs on the front lines, that's what he does. But Librarians are support characters, not offense ones. Their job is to make the rest of the army better, not to be super-amazing dudes by themselves. If you're trying to shove them in the enemy's face and punch everything to death, yes, you will be disappointed with them.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Still no one has addressed this... The type of list you play directly influences which HQ is the better choice. See my mech list above, and any shooting based mech list actually, Mephiston I find to perform better. I will not pay 250pts for a 24" bubble of a 5+ cover save that may do nothing for the whole game. Mephiston does so much more for my army. My Baals will never get it as they scout and take flanks, that's their job. So great, I'm paying 250pts so I can protect a Raider, 3 Razors and maybe an Annihlator Pred? Awesome. 24" bubble is way overboard for this list and if we take one out then we're back to Morti's original question from page one... what can you take for the price of a Libby + 150pts that is going to be better than Mephiston.

 

The choice is 100% dependant on the list you take. Why is no one addressing this? This is the most crucial part of this debate one way or another. I hope some of our more... passionate debaters will rebuttle this. I will do anything to make my lists stronger as I find it the most fun of any part of this game. If I've overlooked something, I'd be happy to change my choices.

[HERO]

Now we got a discussion ^^

 

Good points Mort, and I agree with some, just not as extreme as others seem to make it.

 

What do you think about taking a psychic ability to fly? I favor speed and reliability, every BA does. I bet 100% of BAs were happy with Fast vehicles over the chance to stall. My last game vs. Necrons, my Meph failed to fly almost every turn. He made zero impact on the game whereas a single Libby with a JP could initiate easily. Just saying - I like reliability: Psychic tests to do anything important is very, very crucial to how a gameplan plays out.

 

Meph has Unleash Rage, Sanguine Sword and Wings. Wings to fly means if he's hooded or runed, he's walking to places. The other ones disable his ability to wage war on crucial targets. For example, if your answer to Thunder Wolf cav is Mephiston with Sanguine Sword (and this is a straight assumption), and he gets hooded, then he's in combat with Rending Wolves w/ Thunder Hammers, Fists or what not. The same applies to Nob bikers. Mephiston, and I'm gonna call our Master Libby this - is a close combat tool. He gets in, wrecks face and he does it extremely well.

 

What he is though, is close-range. If you're not in close, you're not getting your 250 points worth to the fullest. Since he doesn't have Shield, Fear, Lance or other ranged principles, he's bound to one-direct role. Don't get me wrong, I use Meph 50% of my games: The other ones are based around Libbies and Dante, or 2x Libby. He's great in some, fail in others and there's times I wish I had Dante/Libby or 2x Libbies over him :)

 

So to the original OP: The last line of the above paragraph is my final answer.

[Zhukov]

What he is though, is close-range. If you're not in close, you're not getting your 250 points worth to the fullest.

One of the most common mistakes of people discussing the value of units. You don't need to use all of a units theoritical skills to make the fullest use of them. You need to win your darn games, that's all. If that's by Mephy wrecking face, Mephy preventing opposing units from wanting to come close or Mephy taking all Ap2 fire for some turns; it's irrelevant.

 

His powers getting shut down is something people bring up too, fair enough, *but*: This automaticly means the oppenent is having a psycher too, which means Mephy his Hood is also usefull...

 

Sure you can fail a psychic test now and then, and sure this hurts. However: Your oppenent can't rely on you failing psychic tests. His treat range is always 24". His potential strenght is always S10. He has always potential re-rolls in CC.

 

That's a bit the thing: Mephiston always has his full potential and so will always impact the game a lot. Some seem to view units from their own perspective only, but the trick is to also look at things from an oppenents point of view. Would you hate facing Mephy? I'm not ashamed to admit that I do, unless I would be playing Mechdar or Dark Eldar, but in that case I'd fear a good BA army anyway, Mephy might 'not be worth 250 points' in these mathcups, but Razorbacks and other units are worth relatively more so that balances it out.

[Black Memories]

What he is though, is close-range. If you're not in close, you're not getting your 250 points worth to the fullest.

One of the most common mistakes of people discussing the value of units. You don't need to use all of a units theoritical skills to make the fullest use of them. You need to win your darn games, that's all. If that's by Mephy wrecking face, Mephy preventing opposing units from wanting to come close or Mephy taking all Ap2 fire for some turns; it's irrelevant.

 

His powers getting shut down is something people bring up too, fair enough, *but*: This automaticly means the oppenent is having a psycher too, which means Mephy his Hood is also usefull...

 

Sure you can fail a psychic test now and then, and sure this hurts. However: Your oppenent can't rely on you failing psychic tests. His treat range is always 24". His potential strenght is always S10. He has always potential re-rolls in CC.

 

That's a bit the thing: Mephiston always has his full potential and so will always impact the game a lot. Some seem to view units from their own perspective only, but the trick is to also look at things from an oppenents point of view. Would you hate facing Mephy? I'm not ashamed to admit that I do, unless I would be playing Mechdar or Dark Eldar, but in that case I'd fear a good BA army anyway, Mephy might 'not be worth 250 points' in these mathcups, but Razorbacks and other units are worth relatively more so that balances it out.

 

 

By far the most on-point and concise post I've read from you, and I agree 100%. I will finish your last statement for you (which I think is what you were getting at without saying it) in that Mephiston, while not strong against specific army types suck as DE or mechdar becomes significantly stronger with a force of properly constructed Blood Angels that can set him up for success. Mephiston is more than capable of dealing with dark eldar or mechdar troops, but will struggle demeching them, this is where the army comes into play (which is a point blitz also eluded to). The speed of Mephiston, as you said in the point about the demon princes gives you this option when nothing else does. Pop the transport and let mephiston mop up what is inside. He is the only model in the BA army that will consistently mop up entire squads of DE troops on a sweep. So while he isn't a one man troll squadron as he is against other opponents, he is still a valuable part of the list. Very good post.