Mephiston

[HERO]

Sure you can fail a psychic test now and then, and sure this hurts. However: Your oppenent can't rely on you failing psychic tests. His treat range is always 24". His potential strenght is always S10. He has always potential re-rolls in CC.

 

That's a bit the thing: Mephiston always has his full potential and so will always impact the game a lot. Some seem to view units from their own perspective only, but the trick is to also look at things from an oppenents point of view. Would you hate facing Mephy? I'm not ashamed to admit that I do, unless I would be playing Mechdar or Dark Eldar, but in that case I'd fear a good BA army anyway, Mephy might 'not be worth 250 points' in these mathcups, but Razorbacks and other units are worth relatively more so that balances it out.

 

Agree to disagree. Mephiston's 250 points is worth it to me when he gets in combat and wrecks havoc on enemy units: This means: Killing heavy targets I can't deal with, killing MCs, killing enemy HQs/ICs, killing entire squads of Marines, tying this up in combat, destroying enemy walkers..etc. If he's not doing these, then he's not worth it in my games.

 

Just because he has the potential to be a god on the battlefield does not mean he always is. His ability to kill, threaten and work in your list can be hampered by unsuccessful psychic tests AND the psychic defense of your enemy.

 

Mephiston is great vs. MEQ, but he's overkill vs. IG, DE, Eldar or other units with mediocre stats. I guess that's 2 points instead of my original one, but c'est la vie.

[Blitzkrieg861]

But those are also benefits of Mephiston... against units where he doesn't need to re-roll misses or doesn't need S10 is great for Meph! He doesn't have to risk failing a psychic test. I sometimes charge him into a unit without buffs knowing they won't kill him and he likely won't break them in combat. On my opponent's turn I pop all my fun stuff and break outta assault free and clear!

[BloodTzar]

I love Mephiston, he is just one man powerhouse, however today i found out his true nemesis...Necron royal court with tripple mindshackle scarabs. I was unable to do anything to them, just becouse mephiston was unable to unleash his attacks, instead was beating him self with s10 >.>

 

I do hope mindshackle scarabs will get FAQ'ed soon as i think its very unclear what can be used and what cannot, evenmore beeing able to use it every assault phase is bit over the top.

[knife&fork]

Are there? I'd be curious to hear which ones. I guess if you count the "hits models not units" effects like JotWW, the Necron Portal, Warp Rift, and Shattershard that's a few more, but it's really a quite rare ability; I generally play entire tournaments without even encountering it once. Telion, Vindicare, Command Barge, Mind War, Blood Boil. Only one of them is (well, will be, I suppose) a common pick and most of them will still allow some kind or another of save.

You just listed a lot of them yourself. There's also gift of chaos, zogworts curse and a couple more. If they are common or not is besides the point. Just saying there are more than just a few.

 

Shield is his main force multiplier; making your front line of tanks 33% more resilient can be a really big deal.

 

Maybe you think he belongs at the front, but perhaps that's also why you have no success with them. Mephy? Yes, Mephy belongs on the front lines, that's what he does. But Librarians are support characters, not offense ones. Their job is to make the rest of the army better, not to be super-amazing dudes by themselves. If you're trying to shove them in the enemy's face and punch everything to death, yes, you will be disappointed with them.

 

I'd call that a defensive buff more than a force multiplier. Not saying that it's useless, but I'd rather spend the HQ slot and 100 pts towards something with a more bite.

 

To be a support character he has to be close to the front, that's where the action is. Unless you play gunline BA? You can stick him in a transport and maybe get some cover saves, I'd rather take a furioso lib that can provide the same buffs while being a huge threat on his own and contribute to target saturation. All your vehicles have smoke launchers, are fast and cover is usually not hard to get in 5th anyway.

 

In a 1750-2k DoA list I'd definitely take a JP lib as my second HQ after Dante, or as my only HQ in a sub 1500 list. Going mech I don't think that a crap version of the KFF is worth 100 points.

[AbusePuppy]

You just listed a lot of them yourself. There's also gift of chaos, zogworts curse and a couple more. If they are common or not is besides the point. Just saying there are more than just a few.

 

Sure, there's like a dozen of them total. Over half of them are on unique models, many of which (and many of them are considered subpar or outright terrible.) I think it is very relevant that they're not common because if you're going to claim that vulnerability to such things as a significant downside of Libby vs Meph, you're basically arguing that such abilities will come up often enough to care.

 

I'd call that a defensive buff more than a force multiplier. Not saying that it's useless, but I'd rather spend the HQ slot and 100 pts towards something with a more bite.

What other HQ costs 100pts and brings anything to a list? A Captain? Captains are garbage. A Reclusiarch? They're sorta okay, but they're more expensive and only buff a single unit in melee; a Libby with Unleash Rage is cheaper AND does the same thing all the time, not just on the charge.

 

Again: you're taking a Librarian because you must have an HQ and he provides several utility abilities to the army. If you could drop him from the list, you often would want to, but that's not an option, so you minimize your investment while maximizing your returns.

 

To be a support character he has to be close to the front, that's where the action is. Unless you play gunline BA? You can stick him in a transport and maybe get some cover saves, I'd rather take a furioso lib that can provide the same buffs while being a huge threat on his own and contribute to target saturation. All your vehicles have smoke launchers, are fast and cover is usually not hard to get in 5th anyway.

 

In a 1750-2k DoA list I'd definitely take a JP lib as my second HQ after Dante, or as my only HQ in a sub 1500 list. Going mech I don't think that a crap version of the KFF is worth 100 points.

 

I think you'll find that most Ork players are pretty happy with the KFF and Shield is only marginally worse, but eh, whatever.

 

Gunline BA wants Libby over Meph in most cases, yes. Basically any army that isn't charging in for assaults does (although I know not everyone agrees with me on this, as the entirety of the thread makes obvious.) A Furioso Libby doesn't fill your HQ slot and doesn't... really fill the same role at all. It can be picked out by shooting (like Meph) and it's secondary power will see very different uses. Smoke Launchers are great, but Shield can last the whole game and doesn't stop you from shooting. Cover for infantry is abundant in 5E, but for vehicles it tends to be a little tricker. (You can Rhino-train, but that still leaves your front line vulnerable.)

[knife&fork]

you're basically arguing that such abilities will come up often enough to care.

Nope, just responding to this;

 

You're right, there are three models with shooting attacks and two psychic powers that can pick out individuals from a squad to inflict wounds on them. These abilities, however, are the exceptions, not the rule, and all of the units in question pay for them (and several of them are unreliable.) 99% of the time, you get to pick whether your Librarian is taking a wound.

 

 

 

Again: you're taking a Librarian because you must have an HQ and he provides several utility abilities to the army. If you could drop him from the list, you often would want to, but that's not an option, so you minimize your investment while maximizing your returns.

I agree, the difference is that I will invest in Dante for DoA or Meph in Mech if I have the points. They both bring more to the table in their respective areas.

 

I think you'll find that most Ork players are pretty happy with the KFF and Shield is only marginally worse, but eh, whatever.

Didn't say KFF sucks, far from it. Shield is worse though and requires a larger initial investment. Not a good deal if you ask me, at least not in the role you suggest.

[Zhukov]

Very good post.

Thank you.

 

Agree to disagree.

Works for me, but then you go on to bring an argument which I actually just replied too, without really refuting or replying directly to that. But alright, you don't have to.

 

 

 

Something on shield: I think some people overrate it's usefullness a tad bit. In practise I find that you pop smoke first turn anyway and after that the short range range really hampers the amount of units you affect. Often you'll provide a 5+ cover save to 2 vehicles or so. It's not bad, but far from great. 5+ is just not nearly as strong as 4+ so I often still try to simply get that 4+ by use of other vehicles and/or cover. Infantry also shouldn't really problem getting their own 4+ so all in all it's usefull but not so good that it makes a Libby essential for a Mech Build. But that's in my opinion :lol:

Not too mention that relying on Shield going off is risky for a part of your whole army, while Mephy failing a psychic just affects him... It's part of the reason why I switched the Libby back to Mephy in the end, failing Shield is much more annoying than failing Wings on Mephy. I rather not rely on Shield and try to get cover in other ways.

 

As soon as I finally fully painted my army I'll make some battlereports to show how I play Mephy, at least I think some people would be interested in it.

[the jeske]

What other HQ costs 100pts and brings anything to a list? A Captain? Captains are garbage. A Reclusiarch? They're sorta okay, but they're more expensive and only buff a single unit in melee; a Libby with Unleash Rage is cheaper AND does the same thing all the time, not just on the charge.

 

Again: you're taking a Librarian because you must have an HQ and he provides several utility abilities to the army. If you could drop him from the list, you often would want to, but that's not an option, so you minimize your investment while maximizing your returns.

only the librarian doesnt cost 100 pts . his cost is him + the cost of the unit he is in + the cost of it transport . even if the squad is a minimal RAS raz squad it still doesnt cost significantly less then mefiston . Also for razorbuilds like all gunlines , mecha or not , need counter units and stuff that draws away fire [because unlike necron or GK , BA tanks/transports are not unstunable] and mefiston gives all that . Even if he dies it can mean that a big part of a BA list had chance to shot [when normaly it would be stuned shaken] and what is more important he does that without doing anything . A librarian to "return" his points has to cast something [can be stoped by hood] has to be in range[all psychic powers] and in cast of stuff like giving cover to tanks , the roll can still be failed [because as of yet BA dont have +2 or +3 re-rollable cover] . A mefiston can be played in a noob way land/move in front of the enemy army [doesnt even have to cast wings its enough that your opponent knows he may succesfuly cast it next turn and kill something] and it will still be a gain . Even for DoA lists he is a huge force boost . Sure he doesnt jump and doesnt join other units . But it is realy hard to decide whom to hit with your 9 oblits mefiston or the 2 RAS that landed in range [specialy when there are also baals to take care off ].

[Bartali]

Something on shield: I think some people overrate it's usefullness a tad bit. In practise I find that you pop smoke first turn anyway and after that the short range range really hampers the amount of units you affect. Often you'll provide a 5+ cover save to 2 vehicles or so. It's not bad, but far from great. 5+ is just not nearly as strong as 4+ so I often still try to simply get that 4+ by use of other vehicles and/or cover. Infantry also shouldn't really problem getting their own 4+ so all in all it's usefull but not so good that it makes a Libby essential for a Mech Build. But that's in my opinion :D

Not too mention that relying on Shield going off is risky for a part of your whole army, while Mephy failing a psychic just affects him... It's part of the reason why I switched the Libby back to Mephy in the end, failing Shield is much more annoying than failing Wings on Mephy. I rather not rely on Shield and try to get cover in other ways.

 

I think Shield is one of those "written with 6th edition in mind" things.

 

As soon as I finally fully painted my army I'll make some battlereports to show how I play Mephy, at least I think some people would be interested in it.

 

Yes please.

 

I'm re-evaluating my opinion on Mephiston in part because of these thread. Probably in contrast to other people, i'll be using him for 1500pt games and lower. What he gives at those points levels is a cheap beater unit (considering you'd be paying 100-125pts for a Libby anyway).

1750pts+ I'll be dropping him for a Shield/Fear Libby, and having a beater unit (or just more jumpers).

[knife&fork]

I think Shield is one of those "written with 6th edition in mind" things.

 

If rumors are true "shield" is going to be far worse in 6th.

[JamesI]

Lets leave 6th edition out of a current evaluation of Mephiston versus Librarian.

 

When 6th comes we'll have to reevaluate pretty much every unit in the codex and see what works.

[AbusePuppy]

I agree, the difference is that I will invest in Dante for DoA or Meph in Mech if I have the points. They both bring more to the table in their respective areas.

But they also cost much more. For some (quite a decent number, really) you'll get more for that 100-150pts you save on your HQ than you will from upgrading to a character. Dante and Meph both have uses, but I don't feel those uses are wide enough in application to want them consistently. Dante needs a high-firepower unit he can drop in with that requires more accuracy than DoA can provide (which is not often a niche lists require), Meph needs an aggressive list that can give him cover/LOS-block and wants a melee beater unit (although admittedly those two things usually go hand in hand.) Both of them are more specialized (and expensive) tools than a Librarian is.

 

Didn't say KFF sucks, far from it. Shield is worse though and requires a larger initial investment. Not a good deal if you ask me, at least not in the role you suggest.

15pts more, yes, but you get a Force Weapon, Psychic Hood, and a second power in the bargain (plus, you know, Marine stats.) I'd call them pretty even.

 

only the librarian doesnt cost 100 pts . his cost is him + the cost of the unit he is in + the cost of it transport .

Uh... no, no he doesn't. I was going to take units and transports anyways- they are not additional things I added to my list because I have a Librarian. The fact that the Librarian exists to support other units does not mean those units are part of his cost, conceptually speaking, because every army list has units in it.

 

Also for razorbuilds like all gunlines , mecha or not , need counter units and stuff that draws away fire [because unlike necron or GK , BA tanks/transports are not unstunable] and mefiston gives all that . Even if he dies it can mean that a big part of a BA list had chance to shot [when normaly it would be stuned shaken] and what is more important he does that without doing anything . A librarian to "return" his points has to cast something [can be stoped by hood] has to be in range[all psychic powers] and in cast of stuff like giving cover to tanks , the roll can still be failed [because as of yet BA dont have +2 or +3 re-rollable cover] . A mefiston can be played in a noob way land/move in front of the enemy army [doesnt even have to cast wings its enough that your opponent knows he may succesfuly cast it next turn and kill something] and it will still be a gain . Even for DoA lists he is a huge force boost . Sure he doesnt jump and doesnt join other units . But it is realy hard to decide whom to hit with your 9 oblits mefiston or the 2 RAS that landed in range [specialy when there are also baals to take care off ].

 

Second, "returning your points" is a fallacy. Units should be taken because they are good or bad for their price, not because they have to meet some kind of threshold in killing things. A Rhino never, ever "earns its points back," but they're still really good units that have defined this entire edition.

 

Third, Mephiston in a DoA list? Seriously? Because you're okay with all your guys having no cover saves, not having a way to break up parking lots, and having Meph walk in from a board edge on turn 3 or 4 fairly often? Please tell me you're joking.

[the jeske]

the rhino does bring its points back if it delivers a squad to where it suppose to be , when if the same squad wouldnt be able to achive that without the rhino . So no returning points is not a falacy.

 

 

But they also cost much more. For some (quite a decent number, really) you'll get more for that 100-150pts you save on your HQ than you will from upgrading to a character.

how is a unit that needs a baby sitter and cant run alone ever cheaper . The points you "save" on not taking mefo are spent on a unit in which you have to hide the libby . Now in the 4th there were those HQs like biker champlains in art armor with obysdian mantle first turn boost [cover+2] , second turn charge . in the 5th a libby is not a character like that . Yes he has buffs [which are limited in their combinations , they arent GK and cant run around with 9 psychic powers] , if he doesnt get stoped by a hood . If he does he is a gloriouse veteran sgt which can be singled out in hth . mefiston without psychic powers still kills a lot . In fact even against armies with psychic protection , even before he casts anything he is the priority target . This is always good . As zhukov said he is like a chaos DP and just like chaos DPs he does die offten . but the goal of the game is not to protect your HQ[unless its a special scenario] , but to win games . just buffing would have to be awesome if it was suppose to win games[sW rune priests do that good and very cheap too] .

 

 

 

Because you're okay with all your guys having no cover saves, not having a way to break up parking lots, and having Meph walk in from a board edge on turn 3 or 4 fairly often? Please tell me you're joking.

no am not joking . he is a viable HQ for doa lists . he draws enough fire to himself to help the list survive the drop phase or If they moving on board to draw fire away from them . And against armies that force you to make cover saves in such numbers that you wont survive withou the libby shield [if it gets cast and doesnt get hooded/runed/staffed etc] the cover for the troops is too low to actualy save enough models to win you games . A DE army with or without shield will blow you up . Same goes for IG , double that if they go slogger. Against GK you probably wont be even in range and will struggle to get the shield off and the high str rending shots work both against r4 and FnP buff.

[Zhukov]

Agree with Jeske, it makes sense what he says really.

[knife&fork]

But they also cost much more. For some (quite a decent number, really) you'll get more for that 100-150pts you save on your HQ than you will from upgrading to a character. Dante and Meph both have uses, but I don't feel those uses are wide enough in application to want them consistently. Dante needs a high-firepower unit he can drop in with that requires more accuracy than DoA can provide (which is not often a niche lists require), Meph needs an aggressive list that can give him cover/LOS-block and wants a melee beater unit (although admittedly those two things usually go hand in hand.) Both of them are more specialized (and expensive) tools than a Librarian is.

This isn't the Dante thread but Tactical Precision have more uses than getting a couple of meltas close to a tank. I usually deploy him last with a fullsize RAS since they will be the more difficult to place compared to a small 5-man unit like honor guard. On the ground Dante can act like a mini Mephiston that never fails his "wings". The Librarian will end up pretty specialized as well since you can't change powers on the fly.

 

no am not joking . he is a viable HQ for doa lists . he draws enough fire to himself to help the list survive the drop phase or If they moving on board to draw fire away from them . And against armies that force you to make cover saves in such numbers that you wont survive withou the libby shield [if it gets cast and doesnt get hooded/runed/staffed etc] the cover for the troops is too low to actualy save enough models to win you games . A DE army with or without shield will blow you up . Same goes for IG , double that if they go slogger. Against GK you probably wont be even in range and will struggle to get the shield off and the high str rending shots work both against r4 and FnP buff.

Are you implying that DoA can't win against shooty lists? :) Unless your DoA list includes a stormraven I have to seriously question taking Mephiston. A great as he is spending 250 pts for a single model that is likely to be all alone on the board at least one turn is bad idea since you are already struggling with points when playing DoA. You don't have to start in reserve but it's usually a good idea.

[breng77]

Just a quick note on rhinos never returning their points. If you are saying they rarely kill enough to earn back the 40ish points you spend that is often true. But It does sometimes happen, such as when you tanks hock a thunder cav unit + a thunder lord off the table, it's rare but it does happen.

[AbusePuppy]

the rhino does bring its points back if it delivers a squad to where it suppose to be , when if the same squad wouldnt be able to achive that without the rhino . So no returning points is not a falacy.

So how are you defining "make back its points," then? This seems like an arbitrary decision. If my Shield Libby gives a Rhino a cover save when it wouldn't have had one, does he "make back" 50pts?

 

It's still a fallacy because it's a poor system for thinking about the game. Once the battle starts, points are irrelevant.

 

 

how is a unit that needs a baby sitter and cant run alone ever cheaper . The points you "save" on not taking mefo are spent on a unit in which you have to hide the libby .

No, and no again. My unit hanging in a LasPlas or Flamerback carrying double Meltas doesn't need a Libby with them, and they are not an additional unit purchased because I bought the Libby- I was taking 5x or 6x of those guys anyways. I can't take any more of them, the game won't let me.

 

but the goal of the game is not to protect your HQ[unless its a special scenario] , but to win games . just buffing would have to be awesome if it was suppose to win games[sW rune priests do that good and very cheap too] .

You are correct- I'm only protecting my HQ because he is doing something while alive.

 

I find it bizarre that you think a Librarian is expensive at 100pts and a Rune Priest is cheap at 100pts when they are almost identical.

 

 

no am not joking . he is a viable HQ for doa lists . he draws enough fire to himself to help the list survive the drop phase or If they moving on board to draw fire away from them .

 

:|

 

I really don't have much more to say than that. Having one guy that starts 30"+ away from the enemy when the rest of your army arrives right next to them is a pretty derpy plan. He isn't drawing any fire because the enemy knows he won't be a threat until turn 3 or 4 and quite possibly never (fails wings, arrives late due to bad reserve rolls, etc.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If Mephiston could pass a psychic test and then deep strike I think he could work in a DoA list... It opens up some rules issues though. I do think he could work in a Stormraven with a melee dreadnaught... That is how I first started to play DoA but I used the Sanguinor. It might sound not so good but starting in reserve they always seemed to get right in the thick of it when they arrived and smash stuff... Those were the good old days.

 

G :lol:

[Black Memories]

I'd agree, Mephiston in a stormraven with a furioso supporting is actually a very powerful strike unit and is very strong coming in from reserve, as well as starting on the board if you go first. Very powerful combo.

[donnyb]

I'd agree, Mephiston in a stormraven with a furioso supporting is actually a very powerful strike unit and is very strong coming in from reserve, as well as starting on the board if you go first. Very powerful combo.

I was doing just that for the last tournament. Paired tourney, sadly we didn't do so well. In one game the stormraven stayed in reserve till turn 5 :teehee:

[Zhukov]

Boards should have enough terrain to hide at least a single 25mm based Model... This means you can just deploy and hide Mephy during the first turn. 2nd turn your DoA units arrive and he flies/walks towards the oppenent from-out cover.

 

That's why Mephiston doés work for DoA lists.

 

And Puppy, Jeske doesn't literally mean getting your points back. He's right that a Libby is hardly of any use without his psychic powers doing anything, that means your Libby is a potential 100 point deadweight.

[the jeske]

He isn't drawing any fire because the enemy knows he won't be a threat until turn 3 or 4 and quite possibly never (fails wings, arrives late due to bad reserve rolls, etc.)

you know that he fleets. if he casts wings turn 1 [and why shouldnt considering in your scenario he is 30" away from the nearest hood/rune/staff] he is in hth not on turn 3 or 4 ,but he is already a treat on turn 2 . because if he casts again [and its a 50/50 chance to stop , which for most armies isnt good enough] next turn he is killing stuff even the BA opponents army moves away . And all of this happens if your playing on a glass plains/highway of death/lava board terrain[which is as bad as it can get for a single hth unit] . + its not like he is realy alone there are scouting baals etc

 

Facts down . mefiston is the cheapest existing death star unit out there right now , the inq DCA/crusaders come in close second if they use a rhino , but not a SR[in case of GK only of course] . those units because of their cheapness to what they can kill are ok in every build . when one buys mefiston [and am to lazy who said this before mort or zhukov] your buying a unit that for the cost of a LR always draws fire and what is more important has a good chance to survive.

this is what makes him awesome . sure in 2500pts games mefison isnt anything special . most armies run a single death star , even if it just for counter . But 2500 its not what is normaly played . for europe its 1500-1750/1850[and no I dont mean tournaments] and there mefiston is like few other units .

 

No, and no again. My unit hanging in a LasPlas or Flamerback carrying double Meltas doesn't need a Libby with them, and they are not an additional unit purchased because I bought the Libby- I was taking 5x or 6x of those guys anyways. I can't take any more of them, the game won't let me.

dude . If the libby cant run alone and has to be in a unit , because otherwise he dies then the libbies actual cost is libby + baby sitter squad. Your not taking it anyway , your taking it because the libby would be dead otherwise . also the unit the libby is with has to move/shot/assault [or not] not the way it may want to be used like the 3-4 other razor squads you have , but the way the libby is used to its best potential .

 

You are correct- I'm only protecting my HQ because he is doing something while alive.

both have hoods , one is clearly superior in hth . the libby can do cover , but its too low or units to make an impact on the game . one gives more kill points then the other [1vs 2-3 unit+libby + if mecha transport] , while still being a single target so if your opponents win/lose depands on kill a BA psyker the focus fire is the same .

So am not saying that a libby isnt doing anything , am saying that mefiston is doing more. He is more game deciding then a librarian is .

 

If my Shield Libby gives a Rhino a cover save when it wouldn't have had one, does he "make back" 50pts?

your fast . why wouldnt it have one on turn 1 , why would you need more cover after 2 turns of moving [if we are speaking about rhinos here] . Before you ask , but what about the razors that move less and shot more . Shield can give cover[if not hooded] , the cover can be made or not , which means the razor maybe or maybe not stuned. Mefiston draws away fire to himself [check morts last tournament reports for an example of something like that] . Razors that dont get shot at dont get stuned/shaken . this way you shot more , more shots means more points killed . more points killed more points made back.And all of this happens If mefiston only draws away fire , dies and never makes it in to hth .

Random always worse then something that always works . mefiston works always , libby works sometimes times . Of course its not like a libby is bad per se , he is just more random . and against a lot of armies he doesnt do his job well . Now if the libby for example did something more then hood+psychic powers[like the sw RP who also kills any form of infiltration] the scales may could have looked different.

 

And Puppy, Jeske doesn't literally mean getting your points back. He's right that a Libby is hardly of any use without his psychic powers doing anything, that means your Libby is a potential 100 point deadweight.

In deed . that is the problem of a libby . you play against GK or eldar and suddenly he is not casting , not supporting . Is mefo an ideal HQ against eldar or GK ? of course not . but he at least draws away fire for a turn , a single turn of shoting can be deciding . mefo killing a NDK [and he can unlike a libby] may decide the fate of an objective . Will he die ? sure . but he will die doing something . while the libby has a chance of being alive , but not doing much the whole game .

[AbusePuppy]

you know that he fleets. if he casts wings turn 1 [and why shouldnt considering in your scenario he is 30" away from the nearest hood/rune/staff] he is in hth not on turn 3 or 4 ,but he is already a treat on turn 2 . because if he casts again [and its a 50/50 chance to stop , which for most armies isnt good enough] next turn he is killing stuff even the BA opponents army moves away . And all of this happens if your playing on a glass plains/highway of death/lava board terrain[which is as bad as it can get for a single hth unit] . + its not like he is realy alone there are scouting baals etc

I'm not even gonna bother to argue this one, since you're apparently running Baals in DoA armies and... a lot of other stuff. Being the only guy on the board isn't safe, period.

 

Facts down . mefiston is the cheapest existing death star unit out there right now

I'm pretty sure TH/SS are cheaper than he is, will beat him in a fight, will beat almost anything in a fight, and are, again, cheaper than he is.

 

when one buys mefiston [and am to lazy who said this before mort or zhukov] your buying a unit that for the cost of a LR always draws fire and what is more important has a good chance to survive.

Except that you could've spent those points on something else. You don't get Mephiston for free, he costs points. You have to compare him to the other things you would've gotten with those points.

 

dude . If the libby cant run alone and has to be in a unit , because otherwise he dies then the libbies actual cost is libby + baby sitter squad. Your not taking it anyway , your taking it because the libby would be dead otherwise .

I don't think you get this: you aren't taking a squad to babysit him. If he's inside a transport, he doesn't need a squad to protect him. If he's outside a transport, he's hanging with a squad who's running around doing stuff. He does not need to be "babysat" because any time there is a threat to him, he is with a squad who is actively contributing to the fight. That's not "babysitting."

 

And yet again: I'm not taking an extra squad because of him. I would've taken those 6x Razorback ASM anyways, whether the Librarian is there or not. It's not even a legal option for me to take an extra squad for him.

 

So am not saying that a libby isnt doing anything , am saying that mefiston is doing more. He is more game deciding then a librarian is .

Yes, more expensive units are often more effective. It's good that you've noticed that, but you're still pretending that the ASM squad the Librarian tends to hang out with is attached to him at the hip, and thus you're going to keep assuming that they're bad.

 

Random always worse then something that always works . mefiston works always , libby works sometimes times

Except when he fails Wings, or has it canceled, or gets move-blocked by cheap transports. You're basically assuming that the Librarian always fails and Meph always succeeds at everything, which is a pretty skewed perspective.

 

and against a lot of armies he doesnt do his job well

His job is to provide 5+ cover and cost 150pts less than Mephiston. He does that job quite well.

 

Now if the libby for example did something more then hood+psychic powers[like the sw RP who also kills any form of infiltration] the scales may could have looked different.

 

In deed . that is the problem of a libby . you play against GK or eldar and suddenly he is not casting , not supporting .

Against GK? No, he's totally still casting. It gets shut down some of the time, yes, but a lot of armies bring psychic defense these days.

 

It's also bizarre that you name two of the armies Mephiston is largely neutered against as advantages. Mephy can't cast against Eldar, either, and GK are far more likely than any other army to be able to kill him.

 

 

but he at least draws away fire for a turn , a single turn of shoting can be deciding . mefo killing a NDK [and he can unlike a libby] may decide the fate of an objective . Will he die ? sure . but he will die doing something . while the libby has a chance of being alive , but not doing much the whole game .

 

He doesn't draw fire because Eldar don't care about him (if you can melee them, they've already lost) and GK won't bother shooting him because their shooting isn't effective against him; they're try and bait you into a poor charge and/or get you to where they can charge you. In neither case is he drawing any fire.

 

You still seem to think that 5+ cover and a secondary power are worthless, so I'm clearly not going to convince you on that front, but Dark Eldar pay 10pts/hull for the privilege. It may not be reliable on saving any one vehicle, but it's not intended to be. Over the course of a game you'll shrug off quite a few hits with it.

 

Boards should have enough terrain to hide at least a single 25mm based Model... This means you can just deploy and hide Mephy during the first turn.

Your hiding spot will probably be quite far away from the enemy and/or will allow some of their models to take shots at him. Certainly hiding one model on a board isn't hard, but hiding him from every single model in the enemy army can be, depending on who they are.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Liking your guys' debate, lots of facts and opinions goin on there. I like I like.

 

One thing I did want to add.... Jeske said that Mephy is the cheapest deathstar because he also has a way to get himself into combat. Even if he never gets wings off at least he has fleet. TH/SS Terminators need a Land Raider. If you try to walk them across the board that's asking to die. A lot harder to hide, a lot slower than Meph. Meph is super easy in any sort of mechanized list to hide completely from the enemy until he is ready to jump out. I've never taken a shot on him that I didn't knowingly present to my opponent and I've played 10 games with him now.

[Atlantic]

They both have their places. Largely it's about points and the other units you bring to the table.

 

I will say though that in smaller point value games, Mephiston can be a total nightmare to deal with. You tend to see more footsloggers in 1000 - 1500 point games and less of the stuff that give him trouble.