The Apocalypse Crusade

[tvih]

Realized that I've forgotten to add the "AoBR group shot" so far, though it's obviously nothing folks haven't seen before. Nothing's glued yet, just dry-fitted.

 

http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/aobr-bt1.jpg

 

I reckon the Captain/Marshal model needs to lose the flag, since it's a too... eagle-ry.

 

Also not exactly sure of what to do with the tactical sergeant. At first I thought I'd just and use him as a regular Initiate. But he seems quite decorated for a mere Initiate. Problem is I don't have any Sword Brethren yet :D

 

By the way, what bit should be used for Terminator Honours, exactly? I really find it difficult to get a proper, definitive answer on this. Is is something like this? I was just wondering 'cause the sarge also has a cross thingie hanging on a chain... In general some of this wysiwyg stuff can get confusing sometimes.

 

While waiting for the Chapter Upgrades to arrive, I guess I should start assembling some of the Battleforce stuff, minus shoulderpads and such, of course. I guess the Scout/Neophyte squad might be a good place to start, since they're not due any bits from the Upgrade sprue anyway.

[Krikey]

By the way, what bit should be used for Terminator Honours, exactly? I really find it difficult to get a proper, definitive answer on this. Is is something like this? I was just wondering 'cause the sarge also has a cross thingie hanging on a chain... In general some of this wysiwyg stuff can get confusing sometimes.

 

Yep. That's it, exactly. Really nice first attempts with green stuff, by the way. I think the only thing you're lacking are some tools. Clay shapers work well, but can get kind of expensive. You can also take pieces of brass rod, file and shape and smooth them, and mount them in old paint brush handles.

 

~K

[Arthanor]

Hi tvih!

 

Nice work you have there. I like the addition of green stuff icons on the shoulder pads, well done. I did it for my EC and it's harder than it looks like, so I appreciate the effort. I painted crosses on my AoBR marines, which for me is easier than modeling them. A mix is nice though and allows you to work on both freehand and greenstuff skills.

 

Reguarding the building of the models themselves, I suggest you leave them dry fitted. If your AoBR models are anywhere near like mine, the fit is tight enough that the bits stay well on the models and this gives you the opportunity to switch arms later. For example, I got one box of assault terminators (which for me was quite expensive) and then since they come with 5 pairs of LCs and 5 TH&SS, I had 5 extra set of arms which, when you add a hole of the right size, can be used to turn your AoBR terminators into CC ones! (and you can do the same with chainfists/assault cannons for shooty terminators).

 

Regarding your sergeant, my suggestion is to use a different arm than the chainsword and to use him as an initiate with special cc weapon. The black templar upgrade set comes with a right-handed power axe that fits very well on the model and power axe are a good choice for cc initiate squads. Then, being "the initiate with a power weapon", the fact that he's more decorated only seems fitting :D And you gain an extra chainsword to make another cc initiate!

 

The sergeant indeed has terminator honours, since C:SM sergeants have 2 attacks it makes sense for them. In general, WYSIWYG is mostly concerned with weapons, armor and model type (ie not counting power armor as terminator armor, or some such, fluffy count-as aside). Little things like grenades and terminator honors are rarely a concern (I almost never see a C:SM marine with frag and krak grenades modeled on, for example).

[tvih]

Yep. That's it, exactly. Really nice first attempts with green stuff, by the way. I think the only thing you're lacking are some tools. Clay shapers work well, but can get kind of expensive. You can also take pieces of brass rod, file and shape and smooth them, and mount them in old paint brush handles.

I do have some tools to work with GS... like the Citadel modeling thingie. And a few others I had saved for the 1:35 WW2 models I haven't built. And of course some makeshift ones. But as said GS is tricksy. It's always either too sticky, or not sticky enough, or doesn't stay in shape or gets too hard to shape before you're done... bah! :cuss Bigger things like tabards don't seem so bad, but the small stuff gets quite annoying especially given how thin you have to make the stuff so that it looks reasonable. Having lots of trouble with the Crusader seals for example (since if I understood correctly, if one in a squad has 'em, everyone has to).

 

Reguarding the building of the models themselves, I suggest you leave them dry fitted. If your AoBR models are anywhere near like mine, the fit is tight enough that the bits stay well on the models and this gives you the opportunity to switch arms later.

The main problem with leaving them dry-fitted is indeed the arms. At first most of the arms fit tightly, but they seem to loosen very quickly and start falling off all the time... especially for the terminators who are the ones who would most benefit from switchable arms. I was thinking of magnetizing many of the Battleforce models, but I'm not sure if I'll do that with the AoBR terminators. In any case I'll need to order more magnets if I do that, the 100 I ordered just won't be enough at that point (after all it's 4 per model even with just stock arms - 6 figuring a second pair of alternate arms, etc!). That's also one problem with assembling the scouts, I was supposed to magnetize them too to be able to make 'em use shotguns if I ever wanted to try 'em like that.. meh. No idea when the magnets will arrive. But I suppose it'd be possible to paint them prior to assembling/magnetizing.

 

Regarding your sergeant, my suggestion is to use a different arm than the chainsword and to use him as an initiate with special cc weapon. The black templar upgrade set comes with a right-handed power axe that fits very well on the model and power axe are a good choice for cc initiate squads. Then, being "the initiate with a power weapon", the fact that he's more decorated only seems fitting :rolleyes: And you gain an extra chainsword to make another cc initiate!

 

The sergeant indeed has terminator honours, since C:SM sergeants have 2 attacks it makes sense for them. In general, WYSIWYG is mostly concerned with weapons, armor and model type (ie not counting power armor as terminator armor, or some such, fluffy count-as aside). Little things like grenades and terminator honors are rarely a concern (I almost never see a C:SM marine with frag and krak grenades modeled on, for example).

Well I've been wondering about adding grenades and such, since generally very few, if any, bits for adding them are generally included, and like crusader seals, supposedly all models in the squad should have them. I'll probably never even play in an official tournament, but for some reason I still want to have a legal army. Go figure!

[Arthanor]

Most tournaments don't worry about WYSIWYG for grenades and such, so don't worry about that. The main thing is to have proper weapons and armors, which I am sure you do.

 

I am surprised that you intend to magnetize all the models from your battle force. Initiates are relatively cheap and plentiful. You also almost always need some cc ones and some shooty ones, so having a mix is pretty good. By opposition, terminators are rather expensive and being able to switch weapons for them is quite useful. But, it's your call, obviously!

 

A further note on grenades and crusader seals:

If an independant character joins a unit without crusader seals, he "inspires" them and they all benefit from it. Since all our ICs come with crusader seals, and most units who would benefit from them also are usually joined by ICs, purchasing crusader seals for initiates is very rarely a good thing.

 

Grenades are slightly different but many people do without as well since they are quite expensive. Taking both types makes an initiate 19 points, whereas a space marine (from C:SM) only costs 16pts (and comes with a bolt pistol on top of his bolter). I would recommend not modeling them on, since you might not want to take them all the time.

[tvih]

I am surprised that you intend to magnetize all the models from your battle force. Initiates are relatively cheap and plentiful. You also almost always need some cc ones and some shooty ones, so having a mix is pretty good. By opposition, terminators are rather expensive and being able to switch weapons for them is quite useful. But, it's your call, obviously!

Well, I'm not sure I can afford more models for quite some time. By comparison, 4 cents for each magnet isn't a huge cost. I'm not 100% on if I'm going to magnetize all of the Initiates... but I tend to go with "better safe than sorry". Certainly easier to magnetize them now than to curse later because I didn't! But final judgement will wait until I actually get the magnets and see how easy they are to put in place.

 

As for the terminators I suppose my main problem is not having optional guns for them at this point, and getting them as bits would be expensive due to postage. But I suppose magnetizing the AoBR ones as well and not only the CC ones makes sense in the end. Just that for some reason I'm hesitant to replace the current attachment mechanism, which is silly considering that as I said the arms tend to fall of anyway, not to mention there are no other weapons available for them with the AoBR attachment system.

 

If an independant character joins a unit without crusader seals, he "inspires" them and they all benefit from it. Since all our ICs come with crusader seals, and most units who would benefit from them also are usually joined by ICs, purchasing crusader seals for initiates is very rarely a good thing.

Well, I suppose this is true. I've been mostly considering using terminator armor chaplains and marshals (once I can afford some), which would mean any squads the ICs join would be terminators, not initiates (since EC apparently doesn't get a command squad)... but I suppose the iniates could do without the seals anyway, saves me from a lot of GS-related headaches at least :)

 

"In other news", I dry-assembled the Rhino (it's nice how it's possible to do that!), minus the not-yet-arrived Upgrade bits - and optional bits, since I'm not sure which ones I'll pick yet, but probably at least Hunter-killer Missile. I just love how much the Rhino resembles an M113 (it with its variant M163 being my favorite modern armored vehicle by far!) but with a "twist". Can't wait to get the upgrade bits and paint it! Had a bit of a nasty time taking it off the sprues, seemed that every time I cut one part holding it to the sprue, I managed to either damage the part I was trying to cut free or such... ugh! They really could've done with less sturdy connections between the parts and the sprues.

 

Also I remembered an additional problem with the whole magnetising & extra arms deal... I'll be forced to use regular shoulder pads because I will be needing a lot of them. Meh. I guess I'll leave the normal ones for the less-used weapon options for each model. But with the terminators it's even bigger of a problem given I have no spares for the "crux terminatus" shoulders.

[Arthanor]

Brother tvih, you are making me nostalgic. I still remember buying my first Templars, a few years ago, and going through all that you go through! Incidentally, we made a very similar decision as far as starting kits: upgrade, AoBR and battleforce, which I still think is a great idea.

 

Once you get your terminator HQs, you can indeed have them join power armor units, the only restriction being that they cannot lead a power armor command squad (or be attached to it in the chaplain's case). The EC can also join any unit (and has crusader seals), except for command squads. If you would like to give him a command squad, a small sword brethren squad with power weapon, lightning claw, furious charge and terminator honors (for the guys with special ccw) make an acceptable equivalent. But in general the EC is better off leading another squad.

 

Back to your current progress, getting models off sprue can indeed be infuriating. I had my share of swearing from damaging my models (if not myself) in the process? What do you use? I have found a pair of cutters to work well. It leaves a bit of sprue plastic on the piece which means you're very unlikely to damage it and leanin up once the piece is detached is not too difficult. And once they are clean, assembling is quite a reward :)

[tvih]

Back to your current progress, getting models off sprue can indeed be infuriating. I had my share of swearing from damaging my models (if not myself) in the process? What do you use? I have found a pair of cutters to work well. It leaves a bit of sprue plastic on the piece which means you're very unlikely to damage it and leanin up once the piece is detached is not too difficult. And once they are clean, assembling is quite a reward :devil:

I use both cutters and a knife, depends. The attaching part was often so damn thick with the Rhino sprues that cutting was difficult, it ended up slightly warping the piece I was trying to cut loose! But with a knife there was always the chance of cutting into something else as I don't currently have a surface into which I could comfortably cut given that getting through that relatively thick plastic takes force. I think I'll need to use a piece of wood or something for that. Right now most of the damage isn't easily visible luckily, aside from the gash in the cover of one of the front headlights :)

[tvih]

MAGNETIZE ALL THE THINGS! Or that's what it seems like the further I plan these things. I think I'd better order another 100 magnets in short order...

 

One thing I'm currently undecided on is the Assault Squad. It seems it comes with "regular" as well as "jump-style" chests, and power packs in addition to just jump packs. So technically by just buying 5 leg pieces I could make a further 5 initiates! But in addition I was thinking of possibly magnetizing the Assault squad's jump packs and power packs, so I could, if I so decided, to use them as normal infantry. It's a shame that the power and jump packs aren't dry-mountable like the AoBR power packs are, that would make it a lot simpler. Another option I was considering is magnetizing the join between the legs and torsos, so I could switch to a jump pack torso or power pack torso, but this wouldn't increase the total number of marines like buying the legs (admittedly, expensive bits to buy separately) would. Decisions, decisions.

 

Also made my first gluing effort - glued the Rhino headlights in place ;) What's "notable" about is that of course the damn thin glue bottle had to have the "tube" clogged. Always happens with these heretical glues, no matter what brand. So useless :P

[tvih]

Couldn't resist trying to start painting something any longer despite a few missing colors of paint (most notably, white) as well as the Upgrades and even the magnets...

 

http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/aobr-termie-hilite1.jpg

 

One thing to note, I brushed a layer of black on top of the spray like all the tutorials seem to tell you to do. But honestly I didn't see it making any difference, except for the spot or two where the spray hadn't reached mostly because of the tabard) I reckon I'm gonna do custom tabards separately from the model from now on, meaning finish model otherwise first, then do the tabard). If anything in a few places the brushing made things worse. Meh! In any case I'm considering leaving the rear of the tabard black, kind of the same way cloaks often have different colors on each side, but I'm not sure. It's just that with it being attached and all, it's a pain to paint properly from the rear.

 

The highlighting, which is the point of this pic, is kinda uneven and haphazard. Honestly my hands shake too much for this stuff :( And I guess the shoulders need a second go, their highlights are too subtle compared to the rest. But I also have to say I'm not very impressed with the Citadel brushes, even the fine detail brush becomes more like a shotgun brush in short order, with hairs in every direction - even with careful usage trying to prevent that. Pff.

 

Hopefully I'll finish the bugger tomorrow, minus the parts requiring white.

[tvih]

Two more shots after some extra work on the bugger.

 

http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/aobr-termie-front1.jpg

 

http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/aobr-termie-rear1.jpg

 

As it is, the gun needs tuning, and the purity seals and tabard need the white, as well as the head of course. Aside from those and a few touch-ups here and there (mostly to the highlighting), I guess it's about as good as I can make it ;)

[tvih]

Contemplating if I should actually just leave the helmets black. Based on the tabard, trying to paint a light color on the black base is an excercise in brain damage. It'd most likely end up a mess with my painting skills. For the non-AoBR termies this wouldn't be an issue since I wouldn't need to base the head at the same time as the rest, but here there was no choice really (given I was using the spray).

 

I thought perhaps making the Assault termies white heads to give them a bit of a different look from the storm bolter ones, but then if I magnetize all of them, all could be used for both roles... meh. Not that all would need to look identical, I guess. But I suppose I could just reserve the AoBR ones mostly for Command Squad use once I get separate ranged terminators. Being the command squad would be a good excuse for having slightly different colors -_- And of course incidentally the AoBR terminators have just the right gear for a command squad out of the box.

[Mystech1]

Not sure if it'll help or not but I used layered drybrushing to get the white on my Terminator Marshal. Start with Dawnstone, then Administratum Grey followed by two layers of White Scar. Example in my WiP thread here. As you can see, my painting skills are not all that good but I like the way it turned out. Not pure white but nicely defined by the black underneath. For a more white look on my next attempt I am going to try adding a little paint to the cheeks and forehead before the white drybrush layers. Hope that helps.

 

Also, with your Assault Marines, if you're willing to magnetize the torso's and legs, that is the way to go. I mentioned in another thread how I'm not a fan of the 5 man Assault Squad, but when you're on a limited budget you want to maximize the flexibility of the units you have. Legs are probably the most expensive "bit" to purchase separately, usually $10-$15 from what I can tell. Everything else is a dime a dozen. Still a cheap way to add an extra 5 Marines, but it comes down to do you want to spend more money. During my search for parts I found that the Devastator and Command Squad each come with an extra set of legs, but these are in a kneeling pose.

 

This brings up an interesting point though. By magnetizing all torso's and legs one would have the flexibility to choose the makeup of any Infantry Squad and change up as needed based on what you're fighting. All without needing to buy tons of models.

[Marshall Crimor]

for purity seals and tabards I try to achieve a weathered look. To accomplish this I start with a base coat of khemri brown over my black or grey primer (sorry, most of my paints are still from the old run of citadel colors). Then I hit it with a sepia wash followed by a mix of khemri brown and bleached bone (1:2 ratio). After that dries I use straight bleached bone followed by a final highlight of bleached bone and white (approximately 1:1 ratio). The results can be found in my assault marine thread --->Crimor's assault marines Lightly washing your bolter with badaab black/nuln oil and then highlighting the edges with a brighter metalic color would also help make the model pop. Other than those two suggestions, keep up the good work brother.

[tvih]

Well, I've been trying to "weather" the tabard, most recently with a brownish wash, but honestly I'm just on millimeter short of ripping off the whole tabard! It's driving me nuts! It has already swallowed up ten times its volume in various paints, I honestly don't get it. The spray went on it fine and looked good, but everything since has only gone for the worse, like now it looks terrible. Should've made it a black tabard, I guess... :confused:

[tvih]

I think this is pretty much it. I detached the tabard (whether or not it'll make a comeback will remain to be seen) and painted the groin area, a few touch-ups, and of course the eyes and helmet highlights.

http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/aobr-termie-front2.jpg

 

I need to get started on some more models at this point, instead of endlessly trying to tweak this one.

[TheCrimsonLancer]

I have to say, that terminator looks a lot better than my first models did. Some people are just naturally gifted at painting...

[tvih]

I have to say, that terminator looks a lot better than my first models did. Some people are just naturally gifted at painting...

Trust me, I'd give an arm and a leg to be naturally gifted. If I took as long as this took with every model, I'd have a playable army for Christmas or something B) It's just tutorials + being plain stubborn about it and taking a long time with it, and of course this is just about the easiest paint scheme there is since I skipped on the white stuff. Still, I must admit that it did come out much better than I expected based on my previous painting attemps on 1:35 military stuff years and years ago - and more recently a single BattleTech miniature. Heh. The tutorials (and most importantly, actually thinning the damn paint since I finally bought water-soluble paints instead of oil-based crap for which I never got the thinners) are indeed mostly to thank.

 

Now I think I'll just add some very fine sand on the base (don't really have anything else appropriate, as a plain base is kind of... boring :P

[tvih]

Apologies for the spammy amount of messages lately, but after just base-spraying two more of my terminators I have to reiterate my earlier observation/question... if the spray covers the model 100% and the surface is smooth and looks good, is there really any pressing need to paint more black over it with a paint brush? I mean really, what is the reason every tutorial tells you to do this? At least it seems they all do, yet none that I've read say why. I just don't see the benefit. If anything it has the potential to ruin the smooth, good-looking surface.

 

I also have to say that the spray paint was indeed a great purchase. My previous painting attempts with the 1:35 stuff as well as the BattleTech mini gravely suffered from a lack of a smooth base layer due to brushing it on (unthinned!). It's great to get a smooth base coat this easily. I actually did get an airbrush years back, but I never even tried because I never got around to buying water-based paints to use with it.

[chaplaincliff]

first the base coat is recommended, the color of your paint and the color of the spray can vary enough to be noticed, especially under photography. So when you go and touch up with your chaos black there may be noticeable color differences between the base and your touch-up, this is why i base coat every time, it doesn't need to be thick at all, think thinner than even the normal thickness, your only goal is to get more uniform color appearance, the termies are already black, so you don't need a heavy coat.

[Mystech1]

I think what most tutorials are getting at is you want to have a base layer of paint over your primer, not so much brush painting over spray coat. GW's latest tutorial has them spray priming, then using the spray gun to apply a base layer of paint and a highlight layer of paint before even touching it with the brush. I believe primer has a different constancy or makup than actual paint. In my experience the primer just doesn't look or feel right so I still cover with a thinned base color. If you're using spray paints over a primer then I would say you're doing the same thing as they are with a brush.

 

As for your weathering, have you tried using a light drybrush after the wash? Picking out the raised areas slightly should accent the recesses making them look darker.

[tvih]

I think what most tutorials are getting at is you want to have a base layer of paint over your primer, not so much brush painting over spray coat. GW's latest tutorial has them spray priming, then using the spray gun to apply a base layer of paint and a highlight layer of paint before even touching it with the brush. I believe primer has a different constancy or makup than actual paint. In my experience the primer just doesn't look or feel right so I still cover with a thinned base color. If you're using spray paints over a primer then I would say you're doing the same thing as they are with a brush.

Well, I use the Chaos Black Spray directly on the model as usual (no separate primer), and looking at the model after that it looks just fine without putting on a second layer of paint with a brush. I mean, from all I can tell the Spray is pretty much primer and base coat in one. And when the model is going to be the same color as the base coat like with Black Templars, painting black on black just seems strange.

 

Also some just paint the basecoat on directly with the Chaos Black (or Abaddon Black, since that's the new name) without a Spray (or primer, for that matter), but I'm not comfortable with that based on past experiences and given how much easier spraying is.

 

As for your weathering, have you tried using a light drybrush after the wash? Picking out the raised areas slightly should accent the recesses making them look darker.

Well that was the plan, but I honestly don't get what was going on with the green stuff tabard. It just seemed to suck in the paint without there being an actual result to show for it. By comparison I had no trouble whatsoever painting the purity seal on the leg, as it was part of the model to begin with and not green stuff. The tabard, after the weathering attempt especially, looked terrible - the recesses especially seem to absolutely defy taking on the weathering color or anything else, and as a result the effect was basically the reverse of what it was meant to be. Probably if I wanted to use the tabard at this point, I'd have to strip it of paint and start over. Not that I have any stuff with which to strip paint. Should've had the tabard detached when I primed to model as well - a lesson for the future, certainly.

[Mystech1]

I had to check my primer can and sure enough it looks like it's just black spray. LOL I guess it works the same regardless. For some reason though when it's set my models have a faint greyish hew to them and it has an odd feel to it that I don't like, maybe I'm just not using enough. In you case I'd say if you're happy with how it looks then there's nothing wrong with it. :D

 

I read somewhere about green stuff absorbing paints because it's porous. To get around that, they sealed it with something, not sure if it was ard coat or not, and then primed and painted over that. Might be an option to look into. I'll have to find it myself soon so I'll post it if I can find it.

[Arthanor]

Good thinking Mystech1!

 

I had completely forgotten about the "green thirst" but now that you mention it, I remember reading about that too. Using a coat of varnish ('ard coat would be best), followed by some more primer could be what you need, tvih.

 

Regarding priming and base coating, I don't do it. My black is GW chaos black, my primer is... GW chaos black primer. As far as I can tell, they are the same color and, especially once I've applied further colors, I can't tell the difference. If you are using both of those too, then don't worry. Just make sure you get all the corners where the spray didn't go.

[tvih]

Well, I almost finished a second terminator today so far, and some parts of a terminator sergeant as well - both without applying a second layer of black, only the spray black - no separate primers or anything, just directly spray on the unprimed models. Frankly there's indeed no difference to the quality of the black in the first and second terminators (I reckon I'll save posting more pics until I have the whole squad done - hopefully tomorrow). So I guess it's all good in that sense. The store where I got all the stuff from doesn't even seem to sell a separate spray primer can, just this

ol' regular chaos black spray.

 

I'll have to take a look at "'ard coat" or something for the green stuff then I suppose. The green stuff templar crosses in the left shoulders of each terminator also took quite a few layers to get done acceptably, but at least red was easier than bleached bone to get to stick.

 

EDIT: Also, it seems like I should be receiving the rest of the stuff, including the Chapter Upgrades, tomorrow! About time.

Edited August 7, 2012 by tvih