The Apocalypse Crusade

[Castellan Alaric]

while i'm not a math-hammer guy, but can see the validity of your points, i guess i just don't play a lot of MEq. i face orks a lot, where heavy bolters wreck. transports, troops, everything. idk man, with shooting getting buffs in 6th i say ditch the math-hammer and just give it a shot man. gotta do something new, i kept doing the same old all comers lists vs my buddy's orks and he smoked me everytime. transports are really out of style in 6th, unless your orks or DE and can flatout or do skimmer shenaningans. LRC's are still alright due to AV14, but i still say go black tide. i didn't think i was gonna do anything to my ork buddy with my first tide attempt, and i managed to kill all but 1 squad of his guys and pulled off a tie after 17 straight losses to him. in addition, if the game had ended turn 5 i would have had the win. damn shokk attakk gun...anywho man i'm just tryin to give ya some encouragement. try somethin different, though, or you'll just get more and more frustrated.

[tvih]

I just can't get much more on the table past 40 guys, and clearly it's not enough. Now, granted this was a shooty list, but in neither of the two matches would've CC squads made any difference.

 

It's not that I haven't tried different things and thought about a million yet other different things, but for some I just don't have the models, other have been proven not to work and yet others are designated "fail" at the planning stage already. I've tried the many marines method, so it's time for the many vehicles method as soon as I have the models.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Well, CC would've made a difference tvih, if you assault a raider you attack its rear armour and compare WS4 at his WS1, that's like requesting for insta-kill w/ Chaplains and Emperor's Champion, Necrons never want to get to Close Combat especially if they're Tank Heavy because instead of their armour 13, you nearly auto hit them at Armour 10, the only problem with this are Walkers and Monstrous Creatures, but Monstrous Creatures will keel over that many attacks, unless in a challenge, and you should shoot walkers anyway... anything with a rear AV above 10 would be a problem, but not many of those exist out there apart from the LR variants and the Monolith.

 

When I fought Orks + old C:CSM I detroyed pretty much all of their armour with Close Combat Chaplain and Emperor's Champion, the only real problem was the Deff Dread and he was blocked on all sides by Rhinos, blew one up, tried to move past and Immobilised himself, quite funny really. But a Tide in close combat works better than a Tide in shooting, I tried that too... but the said Necrons just took them out piecemeal, tried it again except with a 4 14-man Crusader Squad (7 INIT + 7 Neos) and no range support but with Meltaguns and Power Fists everywhere, and he peed himself...

[tvih]

Uh. You actually think I can dictate when I get into close combat against a fast, open-topped skimmer and its passengers who have Fleet and even on foot can essentially charge on average from, oh, about 18" away (move 6, run D6 with reroll, charge 2-12 with rerolls for low numbers, and of course an additional 6" if the transport moves them for that much)? Not unless the guy playing the DE is sleeping. And a Chaplain? What good would he have done when he would've never even gotten to attack anyway against the Incubi? Or well, yeah, he would've gotten to attack with his Maul and done some damage but would've died at the same time along with the rest of his squad, little difference to the end result.

 

As for Necrons, getting into close combat with them if they don't want to play isn't all that peachy. They can retreat 6" each turn making it take forever for my CC squad to reach them, given the transport would've dead ages ago. The honour guard was an excellent example, they never got to even try to charge. And they're artificer-equipped. But doesn't help much when you've got 3 Death Rays and tesla thingies beating your squads indiscriminately. And the funniest part is that RAW, the Death Ray can kill your guys even when they are locked in CC if you manage to get that far, so that's no rescue against them either. Outside of CC a single Death Ray is basically guaranteed to kill at least 3 models, often more, unless they have good invulnerability saves. Even worse for a squad in CC actually, since they're piled together so well. The one single semi-reliable defense against the Doomscythes would be a Quad Gun, but even that would die after taking out maybe one of the flyers.

[Kristoff]

Uh. You actually think I can dictate when I get into close combat against a fast, open-topped skimmer and its passengers who have Fleet and even on foot can essentially charge on average from, oh, about 18" away (move 6, run D6 with reroll, charge 2-12 with rerolls for low numbers, and of course an additional 6" if the transport moves them for that much)? Not unless the guy playing the DE is sleeping. And a Chaplain? What good would he have done when he would've never even gotten to attack anyway against the Incubi? Or well, yeah, he would've gotten to attack with his Maul and done some damage but would've died at the same time along with the rest of his squad, little difference to the end result.

 

As for Necrons, getting into close combat with them if they don't want to play isn't all that peachy. They can retreat 6" each turn making it take forever for my CC squad to reach them, given the transport would've dead ages ago. The honour guard was an excellent example, they never got to even try to charge. And they're artificer-equipped. But doesn't help much when you've got 3 Death Rays and tesla thingies beating your squads indiscriminately. And the funniest part is that RAW, the Death Ray can kill your guys even when they are locked in CC if you manage to get that far, so that's no rescue against them either. Outside of CC a single Death Ray is basically guaranteed to kill at least 3 models, often more, unless they have good invulnerability saves. Even worse for a squad in CC actually, since they're piled together so well. The one single semi-reliable defense against the Doomscythes would be a Quad Gun, but even that would die after taking out maybe one of the flyers.

Death Rays still have to have a valid target first and aren't that manueverable, combine that with a very short range starting point, makes them predictable.

 

As for Raiders, very little in our codex cannot shoot them down. Yes, they can upgrade them out the wazoo to minimize those hits, but that means there are far fewer of anything on the board for them to use offensively.

 

But I think the biggest telling point is where you said that you have horrible dice rolls. You can Mathhammer till Hawking is blue in the face, but it all comes down to dice rolls. Mathhammer is only probability, not certainty. There is a reason why one of the scariest things for a Terminator squad is a IG Blob Squad that gets an order of Front Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire. You seem to have lost faith in your dice, you codex, and yourself. You can replace your dice. You can change codices or fandex up a new one. But if you don't believe you can win no matter what, you make yourself correct. The only time Mathhammer should ever hit your head is deciding whether to shoot with a Lascannon from Team A or a Missile Lancher from Team B.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

There's only ever 48" of that table, nobody can ever trully run away from a CC heavy force. I find that shooting with my Templars, especially now that everyone can outgun me unless in Apoc. is useless, and an Incubi? how would that kill my Chaplain off, remember if your EC is with the Chaplain the EC gets the Challenge, your EC dies, ok, then that Incubi sits there killing just 1 model the EC while your Chaplain goes Killing spree with his Maul, I get Dead Wyches that way, and FYI Fleet is not = assault now, that's what I've been pointing out in the rulebook,

Fleet is now reroll D6 in Run and if you Ran no assault, why because you ran and they didn't fix that... so still just 18" and open topped transports will be even more susceptible to damage, I Power Fist attack will knock it out. Even with the Fast Rule, it can only ever disembark its passengers, if it moves 6" meaning if they decide to disembark, there's a non-moving transport righ there. And who says to Saturate your fire? Concentrate it. So they charge 1 squad, how 'bout the one behind that, and the one behind that, and the one behind that... who cares for objectives, table them! That's Victory all in itself.

And moving back only 6" makes it worse for Necrons, they move 6" fire concentrated shots, RZ 9" towards them if you got Chaplain and Cenobytes, your turn move 6", assault 2 D6", you get to move a possible 15" in a single Game Turn... and have an Assault range of possibly 12" thats a possible 27" range (more than half a table) if you deployed right in the middle of the table you could be in his deployment zone in Game Turn 1 if your really lucky, and his fliers will be trying to go around in circles trying to get you in its LoS. even with its Tesla Thingies, it can't fire if it has no LoS and what better way to do that than stay in his deployment zone, since if a flier doesn't move 18" it dies right off the bat.

 

That's what I've been saying to most of the fleet based armies here, transports can only disembark models if they move 6", Fleet =/= I can Assault after Running, its just re-rolls to Charge/Run, which means if you ran, you can't Assault, which means you're stationary for a Turn, which means dead fleet guys.

Fliers cannot pivot after moving, its before moving, unless in Hover mode which means I don't need Skyfire anymore, thay have to move 18" unless in Hover mode and can only pivot before moving at a 90 degree angle, which means if I get to your Deployment zone in 2 Turns your fliers will be shooting me in Turn 4. You have to exploit every weakness the enemy has, Xenos are weak against Bolter Fire, and that includes Bolt Pistols, except for Necrons. Necrons will not die unless you finish off the entire squad, so finish off the entire squad, even if there are over 60 Crusaders in there. Don't be so negative, if you're failing in your gaming now, then don't worry, I was like that too, until I realised that my Power Gaming opponents didn't read all the rules, and I started exploiting their weaknesses through it.

Don't lose faith brother Tvih, if you're having bad dice, get a new set, if they're still bad, I have a suggestion. It wass researched that no 2 dice are the same, but sometimes they are manufactured by the same co. at the same time and they may have been faulty (loaded).

Do this:

Have a Dice Competition

Roll only 2 dice. First to get a 6 stays with you, the other one you take away (don't throw away for now) and is seperated from the other prospective dice, if they both get a 6 them keep them both.

Repeat the above steps until you have filled a GW: dice cube or your container, if the container/cube is not yet filled, then use the failed dice and do a 2nd competition where the first to get a 1 gets taken off.

Repeat the above step until conatiner/cube is full, the remaining failed dices are the faulty ones, that's how we checked for faults during our research. And we further proved it by measuring each failed dices sides weight in its center of gravity, and any faults that can only

be viewed microscopically. Our final result... 67% of the faulty dices are actually faulty and could result in D6 rolls of 1. And that's with different Dice sets. If you can try to get a hold of clear glass dice, as clear glass are not drop forged but cut resulting in the most less faulty dices.

 

And again keep up the faith. And keep Crusading in the name of the Emperor.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Marshal_Roujakis

[tvih]

Death Rays still have to have a valid target first and aren't that manueverable, combine that with a very short range starting point, makes them predictable.

Actually no, they don't need a valid first target. That's the real kicker. Heck, they can literally shoot at empty terrain if they want to. You pick a place on the battlefield, not a model specifically. And that's why it can hit to CC, and even intentionally his own models if he wants/needs to (like, to hit more of your guys he has to pass the beam through one of his) - it's not aimed at models, but on the ground. It's nuts considering no one else can do such a thing that I know of.

 

As for Raiders, very little in our codex cannot shoot them down. Yes, they can upgrade them out the wazoo to minimize those hits, but that means there are far fewer of anything on the board for them to use offensively.

You'd be amazed at what rate my opponents succeed in their vehicles' 5+ saves, in the case of the Raiders it's flicker fields. Let's just say they succeed at least as often as and in some matches more often than not. And I truly, honestly do wish I was exaggerating. The 1000pt match against Sisters of Battle is a good example that I do not.

 

You seem to have lost faith in your dice, you codex, and yourself. You can replace your dice. You can change codices or fandex up a new one. But if you don't believe you can win no matter what, you make yourself correct. The only time Mathhammer should ever hit your head is deciding whether to shoot with a Lascannon from Team A or a Missile Lancher from Team B.

As "superstitious" as many people in this hobby seem to be, what I believe doesn't factor into what the dice rolls end up showing. Heck, if it did, I would've lost my first match, which I didn't, because it was the exact opposite of my other matches and I was the one doing the crushing and it was the only time I shot down those goddamn DE transports. Similarly I went into the SoB match as well as the third match of the 1000pt tournament thinking I had a decent chance of winning, only to end up utterly ruined. As I've said, I've learned that randomness nearly never works in my favor no matter what the game.

 

And well no, mathhammering is kinda necessary to make a good list, otherwise I'd end up not even having that lascannon to choose a target for because they don't really appeal to me. I prefer dakka weapons.

[Kristoff]

Death Rays still have to have a valid target first and aren't that manueverable, combine that with a very short range starting point, makes them predictable.

Actually no, they don't need a valid first target. That's the real kicker. Heck, they can literally shoot at empty terrain if they want to. You pick a place on the battlefield, not a model specifically. And that's why it can hit to CC, and even intentionally his own models if he wants/needs to (like, to hit more of your guys he has to pass the beam through one of his) - it's not aimed at models, but on the ground. It's nuts considering no one else can do such a thing that I know of.

Apologies, I forgot about the Death Ray's line. But where does it say they can hit a hit in CC? The Death Ray is a type of template, and there is no exception for placing the "template" on a unit in CC or its own.

 

As for Raiders, very little in our codex cannot shoot them down. Yes, they can upgrade them out the wazoo to minimize those hits, but that means there are far fewer of anything on the board for them to use offensively.

You'd be amazed at what rate my opponents succeed in their vehicles' 5+ saves, in the case of the Raiders it's flicker fields. Let's just say they succeed at least as often as and in some matches more often than not. And I truly, honestly do wish I was exaggerating. The 1000pt match against Sisters of Battle is a good example that I do not.

Still sounds like your Mathhammer didn't work in these cases, now, did it?

 

You seem to have lost faith in your dice, you codex, and yourself. You can replace your dice. You can change codices or fandex up a new one. But if you don't believe you can win no matter what, you make yourself correct. The only time Mathhammer should ever hit your head is deciding whether to shoot with a Lascannon from Team A or a Missile Lancher from Team B.

As "superstitious" as many people in this hobby seem to be, what I believe doesn't factor into what the dice rolls end up showing. Heck, if it did, I would've lost my first match, which I didn't, because it was the exact opposite of my other matches and I was the one doing the crushing and it was the only time I shot down those goddamn DE transports. Similarly I went into the SoB match as well as the third match of the 1000pt tournament thinking I had a decent chance of winning, only to end up utterly ruined. As I've said, I've learned that randomness nearly never works in my favor no matter what the game.

 

And well no, mathhammering is kinda necessary to make a good list, otherwise I'd end up not even having that lascannon to choose a target for because they don't really appeal to me. I prefer dakka weapons.

Then I guess this game isn't for you, or at least, not this army. While I'm not a "Heart of the Cards" type person, either, confidence can go a long way to enjoying the game and being successful, and your earlier words confirm it, as you can't seem to make good rolls. And if you spend all your time Mathhammering, then the only "Space Marine" army for you is Grey Knights, as they have the best chance of turning the odds in your favor, or going for the sheer number overload of the Imperial Guard.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Kristoff

[tvih]

Apologies, I forgot about the Death Ray's line. But where does it say they can hit a hit in CC? The Death Ray is a type of template, and there is no exception for placing the "template" on a unit in CC or its own.

It being a "template" is a gamer conception, and rules don't support that. It's a Heavy 1 weapon, no Template in its type and thus no restrictions related to that type. Basically the rules don't flat out say you can do this, but nothing says you can't. You can't normally attack units in CC because you can't target those models, but the Ray is just a line drawn on terrain, and that the models happen to be standing there is secondary. The description indeed even pretty directly says the Ray can hit your own models, something that normal weapons can't ever do except for involuntary scatter - and Ray doesn't scatter as such, only the length varies. So RAW is that you can do it, as nuts as it is. Can't really find any grounds for prohibiting it - not that it was even used against me in CC, but even so.

 

Oh, and for those that might not know the Death Ray, while only having 12" range technically, has a 360 degree firing arc so it's not exactly easy to avoid regardless of the above. And against ground targets in practise the range is much more, since you can just have the starting point 12" away (even if there's no model there), the ray itself can end much farther away (up to 18").

 

Still sounds like your Mathhammer didn't work in these cases, now, did it?

"My mathhammer", you say as if math is my invention and somehow inherently evil. Mathhammer is about averages, end result is random but technically still in the long term should be according to the average. For everyone but me that is :cuss You can't just go with nothing but bolters and hope to kill Land Raiders, no matter how much you may hate mathhammering. Besides, it's not like I mathhammer hardcore-like, I only use it in some cases to try and decide which weapons configurations would work best on average on a given unit that I'm contemplating using. Or what do you suggest, rolling a dice to determine upgrades? No wait, even better, let's not use any upgrades, that'll take care of the evil mathhammering ways.

 

I'm not trying to WAAC here, doing some rudimentary calculations is merely an aid, not the be all, end all of my list building.

 

Then I guess this game isn't for you, or at least, not this army. While I'm not a "Heart of the Cards" type person, either, confidence can go a long way to enjoying the game and being successful, and your earlier words confirm it, as you can't seem to make good rolls. And if you spend all your time Mathhammering, then the only "Space Marine" army for you is Grey Knights, as they have the best chance of turning the odds in your favor, or going for the sheer number overload of the Imperial Guard.

Well, bad rolls make any army suck, so if I have to suck I'd rather suck with an army I like for looks and fluff. I won't change to "cheese" codices that I care nothing about (the closest thing would be Orks, because I've always liked Orks visually etc in Warhammer FB&40k, Warcraft and so forth, but apparently currently in 40k they're pretty nuts from all I've seen) because that would defeat the point of trying to have fun once again. I just hope introducing heavy armor support and Typhoons will help to turn the tide. I'd have to have some seriously crap luck not to down at least one Raider with a squadron of Typhoons for example considering both heavy bolters as well as the missiles can penetrate it.

 

As I said before, I don't really mind the losing part, I mind the part where I consistently lose ten to one in terms of points destroyed despite having reasonable even if not optimized lists.

[Kristoff]

Apologies, I forgot about the Death Ray's line. But where does it say they can hit a hit in CC? The Death Ray is a type of template, and there is no exception for placing the "template" on a unit in CC or its own.

It being a "template" is a gamer conception, and rules don't support that. It's a Heavy 1 weapon, no Template in its type and thus no restrictions related to that type. Basically the rules don't flat out say you can do this, but nothing says you can't. You can't normally attack units in CC because you can't target those models, but the Ray is just a line drawn on terrain, and that the models happen to be standing there is secondary. The description indeed even pretty directly says the Ray can hit your own models, something that normal weapons can't ever do except for involuntary scatter - and Ray doesn't scatter as such, only the length varies. So RAW is that you can do it, as nuts as it is. Can't really find any grounds for prohibiting it - not that it was even used against me in CC, but even so.

 

Oh, and for those that might not know the Death Ray, while only having 12" range technically, has a 360 degree firing arc so it's not exactly easy to avoid regardless of the above. And against ground targets in practise the range is much more, since you can just have the starting point 12" away (even if there's no model there), the ray itself can end much farther away (up to 18").

In this you are incorrect. I said template, not Template. There are 4 types of templates, Template (or Flame Template), Blast Template, Large Blast Template, and Line Template. The first 3 are familiar to any veteran 40K player. The Line Template was introduced with Codex: Space Wolves' Psyker Power, Jaws of the Warp Wolf. It's not very common. But it is the reason that the Death Ray cannot hit Flyers.

 

Still sounds like your Mathhammer didn't work in these cases, now, did it?

"My mathhammer", you say as if math is my invention and somehow inherently evil. Mathhammer is about averages, end result is random but technically still in the long term should be according to the average. For everyone but me that is :P You can't just go with nothing but bolters and hope to kill Land Raiders, no matter how much you may hate mathhammering. Besides, it's not like I mathhammer hardcore-like, I only use it in some cases to try and decide which weapons configurations would work best on average on a given unit that I'm contemplating using. Or what do you suggest, rolling a dice to determine upgrades? No wait, even better, let's not use any upgrades, that'll take care of the evil mathhammering ways.

 

I'm not trying to WAAC here, doing some rudimentary calculations is merely an aid, not the be all, end all of my list building.

No, I'm just saying that you may be relying on it too much. When dealing with a game with a random outcome it's entirely possible for the laws of probability to take a back seat. Does it always happen? Of course not. But that's part of the Risk/Reward metric that happens in a game. If one pushes the risk envelope, one may get results out of bad odds. But if one does not push the envelope, you will never achieve incredible achievements.

 

To put it another way, in RTSs I usually turtle until I build a massive army that just rolls over the enemy, in Single Player. In Multi-Player, you have to play aggressively or get stomped.

 

Then I guess this game isn't for you, or at least, not this army. While I'm not a "Heart of the Cards" type person, either, confidence can go a long way to enjoying the game and being successful, and your earlier words confirm it, as you can't seem to make good rolls. And if you spend all your time Mathhammering, then the only "Space Marine" army for you is Grey Knights, as they have the best chance of turning the odds in your favor, or going for the sheer number overload of the Imperial Guard.

Well, bad rolls make any army suck, so if I have to suck I'd rather suck with an army I like for looks and fluff. I won't change to "cheese" codices that I care nothing about (the closest thing would be Orks, because I've always liked Orks visually etc in Warhammer FB&40k, Warcraft and so forth, but apparently currently in 40k they're pretty nuts from all I've seen) because that would defeat the point of trying to have fun once again. I just hope introducing heavy armor support and Typhoons will help to turn the tide. I'd have to have some seriously crap luck not to down at least one Raider with a squadron of Typhoons for example considering both heavy bolters as well as the missiles can penetrate it.

 

As I said before, I don't really mind the losing part, I mind the part where I consistently lose ten to one in terms of points destroyed despite having reasonable even if not optimized lists.

So, change your dice? From what I've heard, the curved edges of GW dice make for a poor experience for many players.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

In this you are incorrect. I said template, not Template. There are 4 types of templates, Template (or Flame Template), Blast Template, Large Blast Template, and Line Template. The first 3 are familiar to any veteran 40K player. The Line Template was introduced with Codex: Space Wolves' Psyker Power, Jaws of the Warp Wolf. It's not very common. But it is the reason that the Death Ray cannot hit Flyers.

 

Now I understand this Template thingy, in our Local GW we refer to it as Torrent, where you place the template of the weapon, upto 12" anywhere and has to have the wider edge farther from the model than the narrow edge, easy way to escape that is to not get close to his flyers, but to get close to his squads that he would not want to die, for short get into cc with him, unless he's crazy enough to shoot at his own models, which makes it harder for him to get back up, since he could kill them all.

 

So, change your dice? From what I've heard, the curved edges of GW dice make for a poor experience for many players.

 

That was my results too in the research... Plastic curvy dice have a bigger tendency to just keep on rolling resulting in the highest center of Gravity side to always land, that side is 1 because it only has 1 big hole on it and a lot of plastic with it.

The hardened cut dice on the other hand tends to roll on the table twice or thrice only resulting in really random numbers. This result does not discount the moment the dice rolls in mid-air, only the moment where it rolls on the table.

[tvih]

In this you are incorrect. I said template, not Template. There are 4 types of templates, Template (or Flame Template), Blast Template, Large Blast Template, and Line Template. The first 3 are familiar to any veteran 40K player. The Line Template was introduced with Codex: Space Wolves' Psyker Power, Jaws of the Warp Wolf. It's not very common. But it is the reason that the Death Ray cannot hit Flyers.

I know it's a similar thing, but interestingly as far as I can find the BRB nor the C:Necrons don't specifically say anything about the "line template" as you put it, and Necrons don't really need to refer to a SW codex in terms of determining legality of their own stuff. It needs to be in either their own Codex and/or the BRB for it to matter to them. What's indeed silly is that it isn't addressed in either.

 

Changing dice won't do any good in the sense that the guys I'm playing against at the LGS use the exact same dice provided by the store, no one uses their own dice there.

 

I'm about to head there now with the LRC list, will see how it goes - well actually it'll probably break apart since it's only assembled with blu-tack :tu:

[tvih]

Didn't get to play a match today, but:

- should have at least one match tomorrow, against a fellow Templar player (he's the only one actively playing Templars besides me around here)

- watched Orks get another crushing victory, this time against the Eldar - the Eldar player had very little left after 5 turns of a 1850pt match, while the Orks lost only biker Warlord, Big Mek and 6 Nob bikers, and had at least 2 Nob bikers, two planes, ~31 boyz and around 30 lootas left... which further makes me dubious about making an Ork army as my filthy xenos option, it's a bit silly how good they seem to be

- bought a Vindicator and Predator, further sinking me into a financial crisis :D would've bought two of one instead of one of each, but only had one of each on the shelf so no luck there

- am now assembling said Vindi and Pred to hopefully include them in tomorrow's match :lol:

Edited October 24, 2012 by tvih

[tvih]

Pfft. The BT guy was a no-show, so to get at least some sort of match before closing time I had to do a very rushed 1000pt match against the DE guy, despite declining earlier in the day. Should've been wiser and declined again, despite supposed AACNMTO :)

 

- Incubi again. Phil Kelly seriously needs to go passionately hug a cactus for a prolonged period of time for introducing (or if it was in a previous version of the codex written by someone else, for keeping) a unit this retarded for that price.

- 5+ is still the new 2+ for this guy. He played against Chaos Marines earlier today, and some good examples are him saving 12 out of 16 wounds with 5+, and not long after 8 out of 10. And he does crap like this all the time, not just once in a blue moon like normal people. I did kill his two Raiders after two turns this time, but things like the only Demolisher shot I got to fire vanished into the flicker field instead of doing something useful (well it did kill one Incubi, not much of a consolation).

- Because the game was so rushed, I made some stupid mistakes - like forgetting to fire with my Typhoon that was hidden from my field of view from where I was directing my other forces from. It could've maybe killed an Incubi or two. And I forgetting to disembark (or start disembarked for that matter) with my CC squad in the first turn, and because I didn't do it his cheesewire wyches blew up my Vindicator (could've prevented it by disembarking so that they could not charge it).

- I rolled snake eyes for my TH+SS termies when I would've only needed 4" to charge. What kind of a retarded terminator only charges 2"? End result he got to charge instead, which... didn't end well.

- Really need that Aegis Defense Line for both the cover save as well as the anti-air, as while we technically ended the match after turn 2, he claimed he rolled enough to kill my fully intact Predator as well the 1 HP Rhino for the next turn with his flyers.

- My Dread blew up from a single shot in the second turn. Wish I could say I was surprised.

- Need more Typhoons. If only the store had some.

 

Ah well, at least I got a lot of infantry models properly based while waiting for the BT guy who never came.

[Eberious]

Sounds like a bad day tvhi, feel for you bro. I only get a game in now and then and its always against orks and my mate always run cheese. So its like whats the point. Think nowadays its more for being social outside of work.

 

I though of starting orks as well a while back, but it just seems to easy to win with them, numbers+ stupid amount of attacks+ numbers = no tactical thought just push fowards and roll buckets full of dice. ..wait thats a black tide as well. oh well. lol.

 

Hopefully I'll get a game or two in this weekend but its looking unlikley, anyways looking forward to seeing more models from your crusade.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Eberious

[tvih]

Between the CSM vs DE and my match there was an Orks vs Necrons match. The Ork guy is the same I mentioned earlier as being the only one I've seen lose with Orks. Funnily enough, this time he managed to kill the 3x3x2 scarabs and I think two Immortals, so he did even worse than I did despite there only being two Necron fliers this time. I should really play against that Ork guy one of these days, maybe then I'd at least have a chance. Also discussed the Orks a bit again with the folks at the LGS while the match was in progress, made my point of view about that if I make my own army of them it definitely won't be an optimized cheese list.

 

But the DE are really my nemesis. Mostly it's just because of that guy's utterly ridiculous dice luck in every single match. And in the last two matches the goddamn Incubi. Need more Typhoons agains them especially. The Tri-las Predator is actually a bit tricky, it's really hard to bring all three lascannons to bear against the DE given the limited arcs of the sponson and the fact that the DE are in your face so quickly.

 

But I really need a way to deal with the Incubi. Had my Vindi shot not scattered, that would've been the entire Incubi squad gone and basically the match won, but of course I have no such luck. That aside their 3+ save is tricky, because unlike the DE seem to, I don't have AP2-3 weapons on every model that ever existed. Shooting them down before they reach melee is as such very difficult, and once they're in melee you're dead. And before you can shoot at them again once they've killed your first squad, they have already charged the next (magically every time the combats end on my turn) :tu:

 

But so that it's not all whiny, here's an example of the basing I did. First time really doing this properly, so it's not special, just basic sand + flock, but serves its purpose:

http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/basing-termie1.jpg

 

I still didn't glue the models to their bases, since I prefer being able to remove them for painting the details - and of course many models didn't even have legs painted at all yet, sprayed basecoat or otherwise, so for those gluing was even more out of the question. Blu-tack will still suffice in the meanwhile.

Edited October 28, 2012 by tvih

[tvih]

Anyone is free to call me bitter and/or childish for this but at this point I find it basically pointless to even discuss force selections or the codex on these forums anymore, since apparently everyone else here is playing in an entirely different universe than I am, in one where even just a blob of BP+CCW crusaders and neos is enough to wipe everything any enemy can field off the table with little trouble and anyone who has a different experience is apparently a whiny fluff-hating whiner orchestrating an off-topic whinefest to annoy everyone. Nothing constructive can come out of such disparities of viewpoints and practical experiences. As such in the interest of forum peace the best option is simply not for me to post. Less time wasted and nerves frayed for all concerned and less off-topic warnings to post.

 

So I bid you all farewell. The crusade will certainly continue, but in solitude and quiet meditation. I will achieve victory against the enemies of the Emperor... or die trying.

[Brother Montressor]

Whenever I'm on a losing streak, i just focus on my models. Last night i skipped a trip to my LGS and instead drilled every barrel in my force, and scraped mould lines from my new command squad. Theres more to the 40k thing than gaming, and the hobby aspect has kept me in a good state of mind for my games.

 

Btw, i really like the base on your terminator. The light colors really make the black armor just pop. Good job!

Edited October 27, 2012 by Brother Montressor

[Eberious]

What Brother Montressor said. Not sure what else to say but farewell brother and hope to see more some time in the furture.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

So sorry Brother Tvih if I may have offended you in ways... I was in that dire position too, and I have lost more than I would've won with my Black Knights, sometimes its just really like

that especially if the players around you are naggy cheese eaters. But, with my losing streak I had about 25 to 30 losses and had nearly hang my Black Sword, but I got through the Iron Cage stage of gaming

and got to a new strategic limelight, now I gain respect where I game at and have had my vengeance against those who crossed me, to the point that they want to throw a dice at something sometimes... my Templars probably.

Yes, we are outdated and in need of some heavily cheesy updates, but you know what would better than an update? It would be serious nerfing at other armies, if that happens, I WILL STOMP THEM!

 

Again Apologies Brother Tvih, hope to see you on the other side of the Iron Cage...

 

Where abouts do you live? maybe I could visit sometime and get a look at what cheesy list they've got, and stomp them flat...

[tvih]

Figured it's a time for a small update, seeing as how my Crusade has swollen. Times may be tough, but that doesn't meant the Twilight Crusade would stop raging against the dying of the light.

 

Here's a group shot of most of my assembled Marine forces, sadly still with not a whole lot of paint to be seen:

http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/crusade1.jpg

 

Missing from the pic are two "semi-assembled" drop pods and a semi-assembled LRC. Waiting for assembly are still a third drop pod and something like 10-15 power armor marines probably (lost count), as well as two more Land Speeders, six bikers, a second LRC... and probably something else that I can't recall right now.

 

Looking at the assembled forces I notice the C:SM infantry section has become quite large. The stuff on the right is basically mostly used as C:SM, with the exception of the two leftmost Dreads. And there's actually 10 DC jump infantry and the DC dread in there, too.

 

Waiting for arrival are a Stormraven, a Whirlwind and 10 more terminators. With all that's still not in the pic, I'll need a bigger damn table next time.

 

Also not in the pic are my small IG forces, consisting of 2 officers, a veteran squad, two Vendettas, with a Manticore waiting for arrival.

 

Another thing, I'm trying to figure out a good role for this Ancient and Venerable warrior...

http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/sm-poweraxe-1-unpainted.jpg

[Brother Ulkesh]

Good grief! If I had an unpainted crusade that large I'd have absolutely no idea where to start...

 

I envy your collection, brother, but not the work ahead...

[tvih]

Good grief! If I had an unpainted crusade that large I'd have absolutely no idea where to start...

 

That's probably why I rarely do start. I'm such a slow painter even when I actually start painting, and I rarely start painting because I know it'll take me forever to finish. Catch 22! I've only painted less than a third of my LPC Vow - which I made overly large, somethin that'll certainly bite me in the butt if we get a new ETL this year, especially as I vowed several expensive ICs - and now there's less than 4 weeks of time left. Bah.

 

As for my collection, even if/when I finish all the Marines, there's still the ~2250 points of heretical C:CSM and ~2500 points of blasphemous Orks to deal with... 

[The_Chaplain]

 

Another thing, I'm trying to figure out a good role for this Ancient and Venerable warrior...

Statue insert for a landraider- either standing on ceramite "extra armor" on something like a spartan opposite a model with a weapon pointing the opposite direction, or a reliquary mounted on a door is what I'd suggest.  Or a statue on a fortress of redemption style rampart.

 

I must echo the sentiment that I don't envy the amount of painting work ahead of you brother, but emperor bless you in the crusade- you'll need his guidance and a steady hand to get you through it.

[tvih]

A good indication of the amount of work ahead of  me... the result of this pic took me over 5 hours today, and of course it's still not quite fully finished.

 

http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/bt-sword-brethren-2lc-tableready1.jpg

 

The tabard looks a bit one-dimensional in the photo (just like the cloak would look in a rear view) due to the flash, but despite not really doing much shading on it, I think it looks quite decent in natural light. They became so light in overall color that can't really further highlight it effectively, and not sure I want to mess around with trying to darken the recesses either. The natural shadows look quite good as is.

 

As much as I like the end result, it bothers me that on the tabletop the model would be so lackluster. I still find it utterly ridiculous that the model effectively costs 50 points, or 60 if you want to match a LC terminator's number of attacks. I thought about using him or another SB model as a HQ, but then I already have dedicated HQ models with swappable weapons, and of course 2LC isn't that great for a HQ - and while the other arm could easily enough be clipped to be a power fist - actually, since I now have to kits of SB, and in the other one of the LC blades had snapped off, I though of doing just that and using the model as a HQ, but PF+LC+Halo is costly, especially since we pay 25 points for a single claw.