Master Of Malfeasance X Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I was sitting in the bath tub, soaking luxuriously while I read my 40k rulebook. I was reading go to ground when I had a brain wave. Page 18 Go to ground-...To represent this, place a suitable marker next to the unit as a reminder. Whilst it has gone to ground, a unit reacts normally if affected by enemy actions (for example, takes morale checks as normal). If the unit is force to move, for example, they have to fall back, it returns to normal immediately--remove the marker. If assaulted, etc. So, my scouts are in a building that has had its defenses shattered. They get hosed with heavy bolter fire. They go to ground, lose two guys and then voluntarily fall back from assault range, losing their GtG status in the process. On my turn, they regroup automatically, and I have full use of them. Taking advantage of this tactic, this one squad of scouts fell from crappy cover to really juicy good cover and some judicious use of this caused them to block a chosen squad that was about to assault a lone captain who had been caught out in the open. I've run this a couple of games and you really get the sense of your space marines flowing back and forth across the battlefield; they fall back, pull the enemy with them, then they mob up and surge forward, or they split and fade, coming back to hit from other angles. You can also fall back into cover if a nasty assault looks imminent. There are some risks; if you don't lose enough guys, you're not going anywhere and you really are pinned. If your opponent gets lucky and legitimately pins you, you might also try some social engineering to get him to take another poke at your pinned squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remmy Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Ooooh very nice find! I was just thinking about the interaction between going to ground and then casting gate of infinity(either version) and Sternguard. It would be very nice if the counter was removed via entering play by deepstrike. But I'm unsure how this actually plays out in the rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 They go to ground, lose two guys and then voluntarily fall back from assault range, losing their GtG status in the process. I think this might be a flaw in your reasoning. GtG says If the unit is forced to move, for example they have to Fall Back (emphasis mine) In this case it is not compulsory unless you take and fail the Morale test. If you choose to fail it then I would not consider the unit to have been forced to move. You have chosen to make them move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymirl Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Using combat tactics to chose to fail a morale test would result in the unit being forced to move, they would be treated the same as any unit which fails a morale check. Although one would think that most opponents would wise up to this trick pretty quickly, at the very least target priority would ahift to non-pinned units. Situationally very useful though, combat tactics always is. Ooooh very nice find! I was just thinking about the interaction between going to ground and then casting gate of infinity(either version) and Sternguard. It would be very nice if the counter was removed via entering play by deepstrike. But I'm unsure how this actually plays out in the rules. I would disagree they could use gate of infinity as it would be a form of movement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 When you have an option to automatically pass a Morale Test then you cannot reasonably claim that the unit is forced to move. They have an option not to move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 That's no different to rolling a Moral test thought. They have an option not to move. By succeeding in the Moral role. That one is Random, and the other a Player choice, doesn't really make a difference. Once the unit is deemed to have failed a Moral Test, is *has* to fall back. However that test was failed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 That's no different to rolling a Moral test thought. They have an option not to move. By succeeding in the Moral role. That one is Random, and the other a Player choice, doesn't really make a difference. Once the unit is deemed to have failed a Moral Test, is *has* to fall back. However that test was failed. Sorry but if the player has an option available to him that automatically results in the unit not having to move then any other option that results in the unit having to move is not compulsory movement. And yes, of course there is a difference between rolling dice and making a choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Sorry but if the player has an option available to him that automatically results in the unit not having to move then any other option that results in the unit having to move is not compulsory movement. And yes, of course there is a difference between rolling dice and making a choice. If the "voluntary" fall back move wouldn't be exactly the same as rolling a fail, there would be zero point to the whole special rule. The circumstances around the morale check are the same anyway - you've taken casualties, and you fall back if you fail a morale check, thus enabling - no, forcing - you to move. Just because you use a special rule to automatically fail the roll doesn't mean you suddenly have to stay put. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Sorry but if the player has an option available to him that automatically results in the unit not having to move then any other option that results in the unit having to move is not compulsory movement. And yes, of course there is a difference between rolling dice and making a choice. If the "voluntary" fall back move wouldn't be exactly the same as rolling a fail, there would be zero point to the whole special rule. The circumstances around the morale check are the same anyway - you've taken casualties, and you fall back if you fail a morale check, thus enabling - no, forcing - you to move. Just because you use a special rule to automatically fail the roll doesn't mean you suddenly have to stay put. I'm not saying the fall back move is different, I'm saying there is a difference between being required to roll a dice and rely on the result and being able to choose not to roll the dice and make your own decision. I cannot see that a situation where a unit has an automatic option not to move can possibly be classed as being forced to move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Space Marines do not, in general, have the choice to automatically pass a morale test. They can only, once they are asked to take the test, decide that it will be failed automatically. They could not decide to automatically pass it (unless the army was led by Marneus Calgar). So not choosing to automatically fail would not result in a passed morale test. It would result in the morale test being taken as normally, and it might still end with the Marines falling back. But either way, a fall back move is still a compulsory move, not just in that it has to be made, but also in how it works, the distance and direction. Also, a failed morale test will not allways result on a fall back move, e.g. if a unit has failed the morale test atfer losing a combat but is caught in a sweeping advance. So the decision to fail the morale test cannot simply be equated with a free decision to make a fall back move. The Space Marine unit only voluntarily fails the morale test (which it would otherwise have rolled for). Whether the unit is then being required to do a fall back move depends on the circumstances. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Legatus- that is a fair point. I was incorrectly under the impression that they could choose to pass or fail. I'm a Blood Angel and we don't get the Combat Tactics rule and I only usually play against one army with that rule - who happens to include Calgar. I therefore thought that it was Combat Tactics itself that did it rather than Calgar + Combat Tactics. On that basis my argument was certainly flawed, although Calgar does give them the option to automatically pass, in which case I still think that choosing to fail and fall back is not forced movement. Absent Calgar however, it seems legitimate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 There would still be the matter that even if a calgar-led unit would choose to fail, it may not allways result in a fall back move. The fall back move is a consequence of having failed a morale test, but it is not guaranteed, since there are circumstances where the unit will not do a fall back move. So I would still say that voluntarily choosing to fail a morale test should not be equated with the fall back move being considered a voluntary action. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Circumstances in which they are not forced to move after failing a morale test wouldn't seem to be relevant to the issue though as units only return to normal after going to ground if forced to move. It's also the case that they still have the option not to move if they choose to pass the morale test. So they are not forced to move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The forced movement comes from failing the morale check. It makes no difference what resulted in failing that check, a roll or a voluntary decision, even if you could've voluntarily succeeded as well, as is the case if you have Calgar. Point remains that once you fail the morale check for any reason, the end result is that you must proceed normally with the effects described for failing that check with no heed to how or why the check failed. In this case failing the check means falling back, and you are thus forced to move. You can't NOT move if you end up falling back. Nowhere do the rules make an exception to this. The "forced" part refers to having to move if you fall back, which is separate from the voluntary failing of the check even if you could've opted to pass it. So to put it simply: 1) You are forced to take a morale test 2) You can choose whether to pass or fail 3) You choose to fail it instead of passing it 4) You failed, thus you are now Falling Back 5) You are Falling Back, thus you are forced to move Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The unit has the option not to move by choosing to pass the Morale test. Regardless of anything else, if they choose not to exercise that option, by definition, they have not been forced to move. They had an option not to move and did not take it. There was a choice and therefore it cannot be forced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 It just doesn't work like that. Having the option to choose the result of the morale check simply has no bearing on what happens after the check is resolved one way or another. Otherwise you get people arguing weird things like that you can choose to NOT move (like if your move would've been longer than you liked - making you run off the table for example - after rolling distance) after choosing to fail a morale test because after all you COULD'VE chosen to pass the test in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 You are offered a burger. You are told that eating the burger will give you food poisoning. You eat the burger and get food poisoning. Have you been forced to get food poisoning? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 You are offered a burger. You are told that eating the burger will give you food poisoning. You eat the burger and get food poisoning. Have you been forced to get food poisoning? That's not a relevant or parallel comparison. The Morale test is a burger. You WILL eat it, one way or the other. Marines have the choice of eating a wrapped, unknown burger (dice roll for Morale) or eating the week-old burger from the top of the trash can (Combat Tactics). One MIGHT make you sick, the other WILL make you sick. The burger isn't optional. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 You are offered a burger. You are told that eating the burger will give you food poisoning. You eat the burger and get food poisoning. Have you been forced to get food poisoning? That's not a relevant or parallel comparison. The Morale test is a burger. You WILL eat it, one way or the other. Marines have the choice of eating a wrapped, unknown burger (dice roll for Morale) or eating the week-old burger from the top of the trash can (Combat Tactics). One MIGHT make you sick, the other WILL make you sick. The burger isn't optional. We're discussing Marneus Calgar's God of War ability so the burger is indeed optional. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 No it's not. You still take the test. It's just you can choose the outcome of said test , and are not subject to a random outcome. God of War doesn't let you ignore Moral tests (like Fearless). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 You are offered a burger. You are told that eating the burger will give you food poisoning. You eat the burger and get food poisoning. Have you been forced to get food poisoning? That's not a relevant or parallel comparison. The Morale test is a burger. You WILL eat it, one way or the other. Marines have the choice of eating a wrapped, unknown burger (dice roll for Morale) or eating the week-old burger from the top of the trash can (Combat Tactics). One MIGHT make you sick, the other WILL make you sick. The burger isn't optional. We're discussing Marneus Calgar's God of War ability so the burger is indeed optional. Even in that situation, the burger is NOT optional. It's still a Morale test. Calgar has the ability to open the burger and ensure there's no poison (Pass) or just eat the poison (Fail). You're determining free will one step too early. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 You are offered a burger. You are told that eating the burger will give you food poisoning. You eat the burger and get food poisoning. Have you been forced to get food poisoning? That's not a relevant or parallel comparison. The Morale test is a burger. You WILL eat it, one way or the other. Marines have the choice of eating a wrapped, unknown burger (dice roll for Morale) or eating the week-old burger from the top of the trash can (Combat Tactics). One MIGHT make you sick, the other WILL make you sick. The burger isn't optional. We're discussing Marneus Calgar's God of War ability so the burger is indeed optional. Even in that situation, the burger is NOT optional. It's still a Morale test. Calgar has the ability to open the burger and ensure there's no poison (Pass) or just eat the poison (Fail). You're determining free will one step too early. Eating the burger = failing morale test. Not eating the burger = passing the morale test. You are still not forced to get food poisoning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naminé Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I agree that the morale test is seperate to the movement part. It is perhaps a poor choice of words in the ruling, but it is clear (to me, at least) that the wording 'forced' means that falling back is something you cannot choose to do. You CAN choose to fail the morale test, but that is not movement. You CANNOT choose to forego movement if a unit is falling back, and this is a forced movement. Also, I really want a burger now... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymirl Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Morollan, it seems you're back in your repeat what you want to hear tactic. The fact is that the marines aren't choosing to fall back, they're choosing to fail a morale check... (With regular combat tactics or Calgar makes no real difference) Yes there is a cause and effect at work but its one that isn't prevented by the rules, again that's the question at hand... The rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Eating the burger = failing morale test. Not eating the burger = passing the morale test. You are still not forced to get food poisoning. This is simply an incorrect interpretation. God of War does NOT eliminate the morale test. It determines the outcome without dice. The test still occurs, and the results of passing and failing still occur. The only thing that does NOT occur is the rolling of dice. The CHOICE is to pass or fail. The result of a fail is FORCED movement via Fall Back. I don't know how else to illustrate this for you. You've got 4 or 5 people who interpret it the same way, to your one person interpreting another way. Take it or leave it, but the ayes have it here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265356-go-to-ground-combat-tactics-and-atsknf/#findComment-3233968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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