Go to ground, combat tactics and ATSKNF

[Morollan]

The problem, Stormbrow, is that you cannot move via Gate when pinned or gone to ground. You cannot make any voluntary movements in those states. Choosing to use Gate in an attempt to move is pretty voluntary, wouldn't you say?

 

No more voluntary than choosing to fail a Morale test and be "forced" to fall back.

[Gentlemanloser]

You have to suffer the moral test, that's not voluntary.

 

Casting Gate on the unit, is wholly a voluntary act.

[ShinyRhino]

The problem, Stormbrow, is that you cannot move via Gate when pinned or gone to ground. You cannot make any voluntary movements in those states. Choosing to use Gate in an attempt to move is pretty voluntary, wouldn't you say?

 

No more voluntary than choosing to fail a Morale test and be "forced" to fall back.

 

And once again, I'll point out that the Morale test is not voluntary. It MUST be taken. God of War simply removes dice from the equation.

There is no parallel here. Casting gate is 100% voluntary. You must declare it in your Movement phase. Taking a Morale test is NOT voluntary. You MUST take the test. Marine special rules simply predetermine the results, but not the effect of those results.

[Morollan]

The problem, Stormbrow, is that you cannot move via Gate when pinned or gone to ground. You cannot make any voluntary movements in those states. Choosing to use Gate in an attempt to move is pretty voluntary, wouldn't you say?

 

No more voluntary than choosing to fail a Morale test and be "forced" to fall back.

 

And once again, I'll point out that the Morale test is not voluntary. It MUST be taken. God of War simply removes dice from the equation.

There is no parallel here. Casting gate is 100% voluntary. You must declare it in your Movement phase. Taking a Morale test is NOT voluntary. You MUST take the test. Marine special rules simply predetermine the results, but not the effect of those results.

 

And once again I'll point out that there is indeed a parallel here. Choosing to fail a morale test resulting in forced movement is no different to choosing to cast a psychic power resulting in forced movement. They are both voluntary actions which result in 'forced' movement. You can disagree with both, or you can agree with both but you cannot agree with one and not the other.

[ShinyRhino]

Morale Test Situation:

 

1. Unit is Pinned/Goes to Ground. (+ to cover, no voluntary movement)

2. Outside event forces a Morale Test. (shooting losses)

3. Morale test result is determined (by dice or rule).

4. Effect of Morale is enforced (pass=nothing, fail=Fall Back).

 

Gate Situation:

1. Unit is Pinned/Goes to ground. (+ to cover, no voluntary movement)

2. Player chooses to move via Gate.

3. Rule broken.

[Morollan]

Morale Test Situation:

 

1. Unit is Pinned/Goes to Ground. (+ to cover, no voluntary movement)

2. Outside event forces a Morale Test. (shooting losses)

3. Morale test result is determined (by dice or rule).

4. Effect of Morale is enforced (pass=nothing, fail=Fall Back).

 

Gate Situation:

1. Unit is Pinned/Goes to ground. (+ to cover, no voluntary movement)

2. Player chooses to cast Gate.

3. Psychic test result is determined by dice

3. Effect of Psychic Power is enforced.

 

In both cases the player is choosing to take an action (casting Gate or using Combat Tactics) that results in the unit being 'forced' to move.

[Gentlemanloser]

The issue you're missing is that the Moral test happens, no matter what. It's not a voluntary action.

 

Sure, you're choosing to fail, but that outcome could have happened anyway.

 

The Gate only happens if you choose it to.

[Morollan]

The issue you're missing is that the Moral test happens, no matter what. It's not a voluntary action.

 

Sure, you're choosing to fail, but that outcome could have happened anyway.

 

The Gate only happens if you choose it to.

 

If you'd taken the test and failed I'd have no issue with it. But when you take the option to automatically fail then I don't see a difference between that and casting Gate. Both are voluntary actions that result in 'forced' movement. I can totally respect the idea that people disagree with whether or not such movement is forced but I don't see how you can claim one is and the other isn't.

[ShinyRhino]

Step 2 is the point at which you determine free will, not any further down the line. Step 2 is always the reaction to Step 1. For Morale, it's mandatory. For Gate it's not.

[Legatus]

You cannot equate a voluntary special move to falling back. Especially not on the grounds of the rule describing how the special move is performed not being phrased "permissively" but rather imperatively. A lot of various rules are written imperatively, since a rule will often simply list the steps taken.

 

If a player owned unit is asked to make a morale check, that unit is about to be forced to make a fall back move. The player can try to prevent that forced movement by passing the morale test. That test is generally taken automatically, and may not be omitted. The Space Marines have a special rule that allows them to fail that test and thus make the forced move. The Space Marine player can decide to not prevent them from being forced to move. The move has been initiated and enforced by the cause of the morale test.

 

If a Librarian uses the Gate of Infinity, that move is initiated entirely by the owning player.

1. A morale test is caused (usually by the opponent or a random process) --> fail: the unit is forced to move; pass: the unit is not forced to move

 

2. The player takes the test (mandatory; however, 'Combat Tactics' allows Space Marines to decide to fail the test)

 

3. If the test is failed, the unit is now forced to make a fall back move

The action is initiated either by the enemy player or a random process and may force a unit to move. The forced move can be prevented by passing the morale test.

 

1. The Space Marine player decides to use Gate of Infinity --> fail: he is not allowed to make teh move; pass: he is allowed to make the move

 

2. The psychic test is taken

 

3. If the test is passed, the move is conducted

The action is initiated entirely by the owning player.

 

 

Morale test: Fail means the unit has to move, success means the unit does not have to move.

 

Gate of Infinity: Fail means the unit cannot do the special move, success means the unit can do the move.

[DarkGuard]

OK, this is off-topic now. I can understand why some people are referring to Gate, it's why when it was just a couple of posts I wasn't too concerned. However, lets make sure the focus is now definitely on Go To Ground, as that is what the thread is about. The two situations are actually quite different.

 

Failure to do so will see the thread locked!