Go to ground, combat tactics and ATSKNF

[tvih]

Basically the whole point of Combat Tactics and God of War is being able to pull back in a situation where you normally might not have a good chance of doing so (i.e. to fail the roll). Situations like the one in the OP is precisely why one would want to even have these rules. They're meant to allow you to pull back no matter the situation if you deem it beneficial. What kind of a God of War would Calgar be if his presence would actually be detrimental in a situation where your forces are hopelessly pinned? :(

 

As pointed out several times, forced to move applies to falling back, choosing whether or not to fail the roll has no bearing whatsoever on the wording "forced" because that only refers to you having to move if your unit's status is "falling back". As also said Combat Tactics and God of War are also advanced rules rather than basic rules and they only affect the morale check, not what happens after. It was still a morale check and a success or a fail, the means of achieving each result just doesn't factor into it. I can't really put it any more clearly than that and frankly I don't care enough to even try anymore :)

[Morollan]

Eating the burger = failing morale test. Not eating the burger = passing the morale test. You are still not forced to get food poisoning.

 

This is simply an incorrect interpretation. God of War does NOT eliminate the morale test. It determines the outcome without dice. The test still occurs, and the results of passing and failing still occur. The only thing that does NOT occur is the rolling of dice.

The CHOICE is to pass or fail.

 

Which is exactly what I have been saying. What we disagree on is whether the option to pass the test (and therefore have the unit not move) is sufficient to remove the element of coercion from the subsequent movement. I maintain that it is and I'm surprised that the concept seems too difficult for others to grasp.

 

When you have an option not to move you have not been forced to move.

 

Anyway, for the limited circumstances in which this may be relevant I think I've expended as much time and effort as I'm willing to.

[Gentlemanloser]

When you have an option not to move you have not been forced to move.

 

And once you have failed a Moral test, you have no option but to move. You are force to move after failiing a Moral test.

 

How you fail one (whether by chice, or by a random dice roll) is inconsequential.

[Remmy]

Ooooh very nice find! I was just thinking about the interaction between going to ground and then casting gate of infinity(either version) and Sternguard. It would be very nice if the counter was removed via entering play by deepstrike. But I'm unsure how this actually plays out in the rules.

 

I would disagree they could use gate of infinity as it would be a form of movement.

 

Psychic powers may be used while pinned or gone to ground status. Deep striking isn't a move in itself, the unit just "counts as having moved". Also after deep striking the rule says the unit may "shoot as normal".

[ShinyRhino]

Ooooh very nice find! I was just thinking about the interaction between going to ground and then casting gate of infinity(either version) and Sternguard. It would be very nice if the counter was removed via entering play by deepstrike. But I'm unsure how this actually plays out in the rules.

 

I would disagree they could use gate of infinity as it would be a form of movement.

 

Psychic powers may be used while pinned or gone to ground status. Deep striking isn't a move in itself, the unit just "counts as having moved". Also after deep striking the rule says the unit may "shoot as normal".

 

Counts As has been repeatedly ruled as the quivalent of the counted action. Gate is movement, otherwise you'd be able to move around after reappearing.

[Hymirl]

Psychic powers may be used while pinned or gone to ground status. Deep striking isn't a move in itself, the unit just "counts as having moved". Also after deep striking the rule says the unit may "shoot as normal".

 

Nonsense, if you can't move you obviously can't do something which counts as moving, because it counts as moving. It does what it says on the tin.

 

Secondly I disagree that 'shoot as normal' would overwrite pinning, at best you would follow the normal shooting for bring pinned. Next you'll tell me that disembarking from a land raider lets you assault enemies 48" away because it says "you can assault..."

 

You claims are nothing but wishful thinking.

[Remmy]

Psychic powers may be used while pinned or gone to ground status. Deep striking isn't a move in itself, the unit just "counts as having moved". Also after deep striking the rule says the unit may "shoot as normal".

 

Nonsense, if you can't move you obviously can't do something which counts as moving, because it counts as moving. It does what it says on the tin.

 

Secondly I disagree that 'shoot as normal' would overwrite pinning, at best you would follow the normal shooting for bring pinned. Next you'll tell me that disembarking from a land raider lets you assault enemies 48" away because it says "you can assault..."

 

You claims are nothing but wishful thinking.

 

"counts as moving" is far from "counts as moved" The ability to use gate is hardly in question.

 

The being able to fire normally is the only thing that is fuzzy. And i'd agree that it's probably not legal to fire normally after the deepstrike simply because "counts as moved" doesnt count as actually moving.

[Hymirl]

"counts as moving" is far from "counts as moved" The ability to use gate is hardly in question.

 

Consider it being in question.

[Calnus]

Actually, you can use Gate while pinned. You just can't go anywhere because pinned models can't move unless forced (and using Gate isn't being forced).

 

Its just that simple.

[Gentlemanloser]

because "counts as moved" doesnt count as actually moving.

 

Now that's an oxymoron...

[Remmy]

If you can find a sentence in the rulebook that defines gate of infinity as a "movement" please quote it and this whole discussion will be over.

[Hymirl]

If you can find a sentence in the rulebook that defines gate of infinity as a "movement" please quote it and this whole discussion will be over.

 

Sure, I'll do that if you can find rule that says when I roll a dice I have to accept the number on top as the result instead of a side of my choice.

 

I'm sure you can work out my point here. :)

 

The fact you make this kind of 'you go prove me wrong' arguement is very telling about how solid your arguement is. If you did have a solid arguement you would have undoubtly have used it already...

[Remmy]

Actually I can think of no reason why you choosing the bottoms of your dice to be the results of your roll would be a problem unless we were under time constraints. Picking up each die and checking the bottoms may take awhile.

 

You have presented no case as to why gate of infinity would not work besides miss-stating a sentence from the rule book. Where you determined deep striking to "count as moving" where the rulebook states it makes the unit "count as if it has moved", and I'm guessing that restriction may only apply specifically to shooting and no other aspect of the unit. Unfortunately i don't have my rulebook with me atm.

 

Regardless "count as if it has moved" is more of a status effect, where "counts as moving" is more of an action. Being pinned only restricts actually taking the move not "counting as moved"

 

 

And as far as your permissive argument goes, you aren't applying it correctly. pinned restricts any "move action", and allows any psychic powers to be cast. "gate of infinity" has a very specific set of events that happen when used. None of those events are defined as movement anywhere.

 

So the rulebook has essentially given me permission to use the power while pinned to it's full effect.

 

Unless you can find a sentence or combination of rules that define the set of events in gate of infinity as movement and not just a non related "counts as moved" status effect.

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually I can think of no reason why you choosing the bottoms of your dice to be the results of your roll would be a problem unless we were under time constraints. Picking up each die and checking the bottoms may take awhile.

 

In that case, you'd be fine with me if every time I played you, I decided to read the result of the dice off of the side that showed a '6', always (apart from the rare occasions I need a '1', in which case, have a guess which side of the die I will read...).

 

No?

[Remmy]

Actually I can think of no reason why you choosing the bottoms of your dice to be the results of your roll would be a problem unless we were under time constraints. Picking up each die and checking the bottoms may take awhile.

 

In that case, you'd be fine with me if every time I played you, I decided to read the result of the dice off of the side that showed a '6', always (apart from the rare occasions I need a '1', in which case, have a guess which side of the die I will read...).

 

No?

 

Again you are placing your bets on the "well its a permissive ruleset" strategy. But the book has already given me Full permission to use gate of infinity while pinned. The only thing that MAY not allow that permission is if Deep striking counts as movement.

 

Unfortunately there is no evidence that a librarian firing up the infinite improbability drive is considered movement.

[Hymirl]

Actually I can think of no reason why you choosing the bottoms of your dice to be the results of your roll would be a problem unless we were under time constraints. Picking up each die and checking the bottoms may take awhile.

 

And you missed the point.

 

Incidentally, I don't need to pick dice up to know what's on the bottom. It's 7 minus the number on the top. Simples.

 

You have presented no case as to why gate of infinity would not work besides miss-stating a sentence from the rule book. Where you determined deep striking to "count as moving" where the rulebook states it makes the unit "count as if it has moved", and I'm guessing that restriction may only apply specifically to shooting and no other aspect of the unit. Unfortunately i don't have my rulebook with me atm.

 

Unfortunate for you yes, page 36 states in the first sentence of the 8th paragraph "...may not move any further," meaning they are considered to have moved.

 

So the rulebook has essentially given mye permission to use the power while pinned to it's full effect.

 

The rulebook you didn't check before trying to argue your case?

 

Unless you can find a sentence or combination of rules that define the set of events in gate of infinity as movement and not just a non related "counts as moved" status effect.

 

Oh, yeah... I just did do that.

[Remmy]

That entire section refers to the unit as "arriving" not "moving"

 

Unfortunately "move any further" is referring to the "spot at which they arrived".

 

Care to try again?

[Hymirl]

The fact you refuse to accept the evidence doesn't change the fact it exists. I can see you have no interest in the rules of 6th edition 40k preferring your own false version regardless of the facts, further response to your posts is pointless while you fail to produce a logical arguement.

[Gentlemanloser]

Unless you can find a sentence or combination of rules that define the set of events in gate of infinity as movement and not just a non related "counts as moved" status effect.

 

'Counts as' in 40k is identicle to 'is'.

 

I don't suppose these will satisfy you, but here goes;

 

Page 36, Deep Strike

 

Obvisouly count as having moved in the previous Movement phase

 

Vehicles <snip> count as having moved at Cruising Speed <snip> This can effect the number of weapon they can fire

 

'Counts as' being identicale to 'is' of 'have' is evident here. If you deep strike you cannot fire Heavy Weapons. If you're a vehicle you're limited on how many weapons you can shoot, exactly as if you has moved a measured distance on the board.

 

The same rules and restrictions apply if you have moved, or been placed on the table using the Deep Strike rules.

 

Page 422, Gate of Infinity

 

It then imediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike

 

Which, by 'counting as' movement, makes Gate a form of movement.

 

Which if you're pinned is a no no.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

Not to be ungracious, but my post appears to have been hijacked.

 

Anyway, I hope my tactic saves someone a game, I think it should be called the Master's Move since this is apparently the first time it's come up.

[Stormbrow II]

Not to be ungracious, but my post appears to have been hijacked.

 

Anyway, I hope my tactic saves someone a game, I think it should be called the Master's Move since this is apparently the first time it's come up.

Lol. Such hubris. Sorry to pee in your cornflakes but this has been around since the start of 5th ed. It wasn't really popular because most Space Marine infantry units were crap compared to now (bar Terminator Assault squads), and they weren't taken in the numbers they are used in 6th (where Combat Tactics is much more useful) so unfortunately you haven't reinvented the wheel. As a measure of consolation, you are right in your approach as your line of thinking is solid and follows on from 5th ed.

 

1. You fail a Pinning test or Go to Ground.

2. You suffer 25% casualties and must take a Morale check.

3. If you pass then nothing happens.

4a. If you fail, you are forced to Fall Back.

4b. If you choose to fail thanks to Combat Tactics, you are forced to Fall Back.

 

Page 18 of BRB:

If the unit is forced to move, for example they have to Fall Back, it returns to normal immediately.

 

5. Falling Back means the unit is no longer pinned/Gone to Ground so they will revert to normal at the end of the phase.

 

ATSKNF kicks in at the start of the Marine's turn so they rally 3" and are then free to act normally. If non-Marine units have a similar ability they get the opportunity to rally and then operate according to the restrictions under Regrouping on pg 31.

 

You are not forced to move the unit if it is left alone after it has Gone to Ground or does not sustain 25% casualties in a phase, nor get assaulted. Combat Tactics simply allows you to choose to automatically fail a Morale Check - it does not allow you to move when you are pinned/GtG. The failed Morale Test forces you to move. It is an important distinction.

 

The same applies to the Gate of Infinity.

 

1. The Gate is a blessing that the Psyker can cast even if Pinned/GtG according to page 67 of the BRB. It targets him and his unit.

2. If cast, Remove the target from the board (pg 146, BRB). This forces the unit to move, so they'll return to normal immediately upon arriving back on the board, as seen from the rule on page 18.

3. Work out the rest of the power's effects. You can always take the pinned unit and drop them in the exact same location they were removed from, just to get rid of the pinned/GtG effect if you wish.

 

Hopefully that'll make it clear for everyone.

[Hymirl]

No stirmbrow that's faulty logic, being forced to move for failing a morale test is not the same as taking a psychic test in order to move.

 

What would actually happen is;

1. The Gate is a blessing that the Psyker can cast even if Pinned/GtG according to page 67 of the BRB. It targets him and his unit.

2. If cast, It doesn't work because pinning states the unit can't move.

3. Oh well.

 

 

Being able to use psychic powers is not permission for psychic powers to ignore the restrictions of pinning. A psychic witchfire attack that uses a blast profile would not be able to be used either for example, while you're allowed to use powers you're limited by snap fire restrictions.

 

Incidentally, when you claim the returning unit is no longer pinned I don't see any evidence supporting that. Can you be a little more specific as to where on the page that is stated?

[Stormbrow II]

Incidentally, when you claim the returning unit is no longer pinned I don't see any evidence supporting that. Can you be a little more specific as to where on the page that is stated?

 

1. The Gate is a blessing that the Psyker can cast even if Pinned/GtG according to page 67 of the BRB. It targets him and his unit.

2. If cast, It doesn't work because pinning states the unit can't move.

3. Oh well.

 

Pg 146 - Gate of Infinity:

Blah blah. Remove the target unit from the board. Blah blah.

 

That sentence is an imperative. As in, they're forced to move from their current location. There is no options to ignore it nor anything qualifying it like 'remove the unit unless they're pinned'. The power is cast and off they go. There is no mention made of how it affects a pinned unit as that is dealt with under the Go to Ground rule on page 18.

 

Pg 18 - Go to Ground, 3rd paragraph, 2nd sentence:

If the unit is forced to move, for example they have to Fall Back, it returns to normal immediately - remove the marker.

 

[emphasis mine]

 

For example? Oh, so there are other unnamed occurrences that will force a unit to move but they aren't listed on page 18. Whatever could they be? Special Attacks? Psychic powers, perhaps? I wonder, does the sentence above explaining Gate of Infinity fall under it? Surely, it couldn't? I mean, all it does is follow the stated rules, so surely that's out of the question?

 

Power goes off. Check.

Unit forced to move from current location. Check.

Conditions met according to page 18? Check.

 

When the marker (placed next to the gone to ground unit when it hits the dirt) gets removed, it acts normally in call cases. Gate of Infinity removes the marker as the unit is pulled from its current location i.e. is forced to move.

[ShinyRhino]

The problem, Stormbrow, is that you cannot move via Gate when pinned or gone to ground. You cannot make any voluntary movements in those states. Choosing to use Gate in an attempt to move is pretty voluntary, wouldn't you say?

[Legatus]

Pg 146 - Gate of Infinity:

Blah blah. Remove the target unit from the board. Blah blah.

 

That sentence is an imperative. As in, they're forced to move from their current location. There is no options to ignore it nor anything qualifying it like 'remove the unit unless they're pinned'. The power is cast and off they go.

The rule is, of course, written under the assumption that the psychic power has just been cast. Entirely voluntarily, usually.