TheSauce Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't seem to find where. If my Stormraven uses evade (gains jink but only fires snapshots), can it use POTMS to fire a non-snapshot, for instance its TL Plasma cannon? And for that matter, if it uses skyfire can it use POTMS to fire at a ground target with a non-shapshot? I think the answer is no to this one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'd say no to both, as it lets you fire an additional weapon, but doesn't override snapfiring, though I may be wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3257659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Yep, it overrides Evade penalties just like it overrides Cruising Speed penalties. Full ballistic skill! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3257740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Wait - turning the situation on its head, that would mean land raiders get to shoot at flyers with full BS, if they use POTMS. I'm pretty sure that's not the case... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3257860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK1 Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Wait - turning the situation on its head, that would mean land raiders get to shoot at flyers with full BS, if they use POTMS. I'm pretty sure that's not the case... This is a good question... (sits back waiting for a better person to answer) To add to this question, if a StormRaven uses skyfire to hit a flier, can he POTMS a weapon to hit a ground tgt at full BS? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3257863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 The only thing that could possibly disagree is: Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13) A: No ...but since both PotMS and Snap Shot are both printed in the same book and don't interact with each other... :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3257899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 ...but since both PotMS and Snap Shot are both printed in the same book and don't interact with each other... Don't forget about the final line in POTMS' rule. "subject to normal rules for shooting." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3257941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSauce Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 But that's an addendum to the fact that you can fire at an additional target. Which makes sense because you can't fire without LOS or at a target out of range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3257947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 But that's an addendum to the fact that you can fire at an additional target. Which makes sense because you can't fire without LOS or at a target out of range. I'm not sure how this is relevant. "Normal rules for shooting" include range, LOS, AND the srules for Snap Shots and such. You can't pick and choose which normal rules for shooting to abide by outside of the additional target and weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3257950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyroknight Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Power of the machine spirit has the following criteria: Unit must not move flat out Unit must not use smoke launchers Subject to normal rules for shooting. Power of the machine spirit awards the following: One additional weapon fired at full ballistic skill at different target. Evade is not listed as one of the prohibiting conditions for using PotMS. The ability also explicitly states that the shot is at full BS and not a snap shot. Seems legal to me. Zero plus one additional is still one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3258610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Evade is not listed as one of the prohibiting conditions for using PotMS. The ability also explicitly states that the shot is at full BS and not a snap shot. And what is the full BS for a normal Snap Shot? BS1. I'm sorry but when GW overrides its Signum Codex Rule in favor of Snap Shots, do you expect they'll agree that PotMS should work? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3258625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't seem to find where. If my Stormraven uses evade (gains jink but only fires snapshots), can it use POTMS to fire a non-snapshot, for instance its TL Plasma cannon? And for that matter, if it uses skyfire can it use POTMS to fire at a ground target with a non-shapshot? I think the answer is no to this one. I am leaning towards the Evade and POMS getting full BS. Compare the snap shot restriction of Evade to the snapshots fired by ground vehicles moving at cruising speeds. The movement is causing the snapshot and POTMS gives you one more full BS shot than normal. Evade moving gives 0 full shots, but +1 from the machine spirit means you get one shot that is not a snap shot. Firing skyfire and using POTMS to fire at ground targets would at BS1. When using skyfire and firing at a ground unit, you have to snap fire. This is the normal rules for firing. Although POTMS would give you one more shot at full BS, you will still be subject to normal snap shot rules for firing at the ground. POTMS could fire a weapon at a different flyer at full BS but when firing a skyfire weapon at a ground target, that's not something that can ignore the skyfire rules. In other words, you get one more full shot than normal; but if you take that shot at something that has more restrictions then you are subject to those restrictions. Anyway, just my thougts on the rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3258634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 And what is the full BS for a normal Snap Shot? BS1.Let's swing it right round (baby? ;) :P ) to a more mundane example: moving at combat/cruising speed or shaken/stunned. In both of these instances, the format is exactly the same as Evading, Hard to Hit, and so on: it's a Snap Shot (for the non-normal Combat speed shots). So...then what exactly does PotMS do, other than allow you to fire at other targets? Why bother saying "full ballistic skill" or however it's written if that never actually applies in any scenario other than standing still/using the one slot at combat speed (at which point it shouldn't be said anyway because you know you already get it)? I still think PotMS overrides Snap Shot in all aspects. Otherwise, it never overrides Snap Shot in any aspect, making it repetitively useless except for targeting a different unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3258677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 And what is the full BS for a normal Snap Shot? BS1.Let's swing it right round (baby? :D ;) ) to a more mundane example: moving at combat/cruising speed or shaken/stunned. In both of these instances, the format is exactly the same as Evading, Hard to Hit, and so on: it's a Snap Shot (for the non-normal Combat speed shots). So...then what exactly does PotMS do, other than allow you to fire at other targets? Why bother saying "full ballistic skill" or however it's written if that never actually applies in any scenario other than standing still/using the one slot at combat speed (at which point it shouldn't be said anyway because you know you already get it)? I still think PotMS overrides Snap Shot in all aspects. Otherwise, it never overrides Snap Shot in any aspect, making it repetitively useless except for targeting a different unit. I don't disagree with you one bit. So PotMS can override even Flyers "Hard to Hit" rule (an Advanced rule requiring Snap Shots to hit, a BRB Basic rule). But then why would PotMS (BRB Advanced rule > BRB Basic rule) be able to do so, when Signum (Codex rule > BRB Advanced rule > BRB Basic rule) should be able to but has been FAQd otherwise? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3258715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Becuase GW can't follow thier own rules. :D Totally agree with both the posts above. :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3258722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Exactly, they set up precedents and then ignore them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3258723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I am leaning towards the Evade and POMS getting full BS. Compare the snap shot restriction of Evade to the snapshots fired by ground vehicles moving at cruising speeds. The movement is causing the snapshot and POTMS gives you one more full BS shot than normal. Evade moving gives 0 full shots, but +1 from the machine spirit means you get one shot that is not a snap shot. Firing skyfire and using POTMS to fire at ground targets would at BS1. When using skyfire and firing at a ground unit, you have to snap fire. This is the normal rules for firing. Although POTMS would give you one more shot at full BS, you will still be subject to normal snap shot rules for firing at the ground. POTMS could fire a weapon at a different flyer at full BS but when firing a skyfire weapon at a ground target, that's not something that can ignore the skyfire rules. In other words, you get one more full shot than normal; but if you take that shot at something that has more restrictions then you are subject to those restrictions. Anyway, just my thougts on the rules. It's probably not RAW, but I think this is the way I'm going to play it. It makes to most sense out of any of the options, and seems to break the game the least. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3258810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 PotMS says its at full BS. Signum says its at BS5. Just because one works one way doesnt mean the other has to aswell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3258938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 PotMS says its at full BS. Signum says its at BS5. Just because one works one way doesnt mean the other has to aswell. As someone above poiinted out, "full BS" for Snap Shots is BS1. However, without my rulebook in my lap, I can't say whether the wording for either Snap Shot or Hard to Hit says that the firer's BS is reduced to BS1, or is simply resolved as BS1. If reduced is the wording, I think you have it here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3259343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hard to hit; Shots resolved at aZoorning Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots Snap Shot; If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots PotMS; the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3259370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK1 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hard to hit; Shots resolved at aZoorning Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots Snap Shot; If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots PotMS; the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted I just wanted to quote your quotes...anyway i dont think its intended to let PotMS work like skyfire, otherwise God Pattern Land Raiders will rule the skys with TL full BS lascannons shooting down everything flying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3259372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hard to hit; Shots resolved at aZoorning Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots Snap Shot; If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots PotMS; the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted I just wanted to quote your quotes...anyway i dont think its intended to let PotMS work like skyfire, otherwise God Pattern Land Raiders will rule the skys with TL full BS lascannons shooting down everything flying. Yeah, and unfortunately GW didn't think to differentiate causes of Snap Shots. Otherwise PotMS could override Snap Shots due to Movement speed, but not due to Hard to Hit or Evade. As it is written, though, it's an all or nothing - either PotMS can override Snap Shots (regardless of cause) or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3259378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK1 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 True, i can see this going either way...i would just roll or ask before a game starts so i know what to plan for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3259381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymirl Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 The rulebooks FAQ is somewhat relevant. First it states that the BS of a snapshot can never be modified. PotMS doesn't modify BS, it removes modifiers so it can be considered to 'slip though' this clarification. Secondly, the next question on the FAQ tells us that only snap shots hit flyers. So I say that PotMS does overrule snap shots and uses normal BS, unless you fire at a flyer... In which case you still have to snap shot because that's what the FAQ says. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3259856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcwm Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 POTMS allows an additional attack at full BS, subject to the normal shooting rules. The normal shooting rules is where you find what determines a snap shot. If someone playing against me went to do that, I'd quickly label them as :cuss/WAAC. If POTMS worked that way, it'd be so incredibly powerful and give SM chapters a pretty distinct advantage over other codices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267483-potms-and-evade/#findComment-3260406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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