POTMS and Evade

[TheSauce]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't seem to find where.

 

If my Stormraven uses evade (gains jink but only fires snapshots), can it use POTMS to fire a non-snapshot, for instance its TL Plasma cannon?

 

And for that matter, if it uses skyfire can it use POTMS to fire at a ground target with a non-shapshot? I think the answer is no to this one.

[nurglez]

I'd say no to both, as it lets you fire an additional weapon, but doesn't override snapfiring, though I may be wrong.

[Seahawk]

Yep, it overrides Evade penalties just like it overrides Cruising Speed penalties. Full ballistic skill!

[maturin]

Wait - turning the situation on its head, that would mean land raiders get to shoot at flyers with full BS, if they use POTMS. I'm pretty sure that's not the case...

[DK1]

Wait - turning the situation on its head, that would mean land raiders get to shoot at flyers with full BS, if they use POTMS. I'm pretty sure that's not the case...

 

This is a good question...

 

(sits back waiting for a better person to answer)

 

To add to this question, if a StormRaven uses skyfire to hit a flier, can he POTMS a weapon to hit a ground tgt at full BS?

[Seahawk]

The only thing that could possibly disagree is:

 

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that

modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau

markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of

Experience)? (p13)

A: No

 

...but since both PotMS and Snap Shot are both printed in the same book and don't interact with each other...

 

 

:lol:

[Jacinda]

...but since both PotMS and Snap Shot are both printed in the same book and don't interact with each other...

Don't forget about the final line in POTMS' rule.

"subject to normal rules for shooting."

[TheSauce]

But that's an addendum to the fact that you can fire at an additional target. Which makes sense because you can't fire without LOS or at a target out of range.

[ShinyRhino]

But that's an addendum to the fact that you can fire at an additional target. Which makes sense because you can't fire without LOS or at a target out of range.

 

I'm not sure how this is relevant. "Normal rules for shooting" include range, LOS, AND the srules for Snap Shots and such. You can't pick and choose which normal rules for shooting to abide by outside of the additional target and weapon.

[pyroknight]

Power of the machine spirit has the following criteria:

 

Unit must not move flat out

Unit must not use smoke launchers

Subject to normal rules for shooting.

 

Power of the machine spirit awards the following:

 

One additional weapon fired at full ballistic skill at different target.

 

 

Evade is not listed as one of the prohibiting conditions for using PotMS. The ability also explicitly states that the shot is at full BS and not a snap shot.

 

Seems legal to me. Zero plus one additional is still one.

[dswanick]

Evade is not listed as one of the prohibiting conditions for using PotMS. The ability also explicitly states that the shot is at full BS and not a snap shot.

And what is the full BS for a normal Snap Shot? BS1.

 

I'm sorry but when GW overrides its Signum Codex Rule in favor of Snap Shots, do you expect they'll agree that PotMS should work?

[Jacinda]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't seem to find where.

 

If my Stormraven uses evade (gains jink but only fires snapshots), can it use POTMS to fire a non-snapshot, for instance its TL Plasma cannon?

 

And for that matter, if it uses skyfire can it use POTMS to fire at a ground target with a non-shapshot? I think the answer is no to this one.

I am leaning towards the Evade and POMS getting full BS. Compare the snap shot restriction of Evade to the snapshots fired by ground vehicles moving at cruising speeds. The movement is causing the snapshot and POTMS gives you one more full BS shot than normal. Evade moving gives 0 full shots, but +1 from the machine spirit means you get one shot that is not a snap shot.

 

Firing skyfire and using POTMS to fire at ground targets would at BS1. When using skyfire and firing at a ground unit, you have to snap fire. This is the normal rules for firing. Although POTMS would give you one more shot at full BS, you will still be subject to normal snap shot rules for firing at the ground. POTMS could fire a weapon at a different flyer at full BS but when firing a skyfire weapon at a ground target, that's not something that can ignore the skyfire rules.

 

In other words, you get one more full shot than normal; but if you take that shot at something that has more restrictions then you are subject to those restrictions.

 

 

Anyway, just my thougts on the rules.

[Seahawk]

And what is the full BS for a normal Snap Shot? BS1.

Let's swing it right round (baby? ;) :P ) to a more mundane example: moving at combat/cruising speed or shaken/stunned.

 

In both of these instances, the format is exactly the same as Evading, Hard to Hit, and so on: it's a Snap Shot (for the non-normal Combat speed shots).

 

So...then what exactly does PotMS do, other than allow you to fire at other targets? Why bother saying "full ballistic skill" or however it's written if that never actually applies in any scenario other than standing still/using the one slot at combat speed (at which point it shouldn't be said anyway because you know you already get it)?

 

 

I still think PotMS overrides Snap Shot in all aspects. Otherwise, it never overrides Snap Shot in any aspect, making it repetitively useless except for targeting a different unit.

[dswanick]

And what is the full BS for a normal Snap Shot? BS1.

Let's swing it right round (baby? :D ;) ) to a more mundane example: moving at combat/cruising speed or shaken/stunned.

 

In both of these instances, the format is exactly the same as Evading, Hard to Hit, and so on: it's a Snap Shot (for the non-normal Combat speed shots).

 

So...then what exactly does PotMS do, other than allow you to fire at other targets? Why bother saying "full ballistic skill" or however it's written if that never actually applies in any scenario other than standing still/using the one slot at combat speed (at which point it shouldn't be said anyway because you know you already get it)?

 

 

I still think PotMS overrides Snap Shot in all aspects. Otherwise, it never overrides Snap Shot in any aspect, making it repetitively useless except for targeting a different unit.

I don't disagree with you one bit. So PotMS can override even Flyers "Hard to Hit" rule (an Advanced rule requiring Snap Shots to hit, a BRB Basic rule). But then why would PotMS (BRB Advanced rule > BRB Basic rule) be able to do so, when Signum (Codex rule > BRB Advanced rule > BRB Basic rule) should be able to but has been FAQd otherwise?

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase GW can't follow thier own rules. :D

 

Totally agree with both the posts above. :/

[Seahawk]

Exactly, they set up precedents and then ignore them.

[maturin]

I am leaning towards the Evade and POMS getting full BS. Compare the snap shot restriction of Evade to the snapshots fired by ground vehicles moving at cruising speeds. The movement is causing the snapshot and POTMS gives you one more full BS shot than normal. Evade moving gives 0 full shots, but +1 from the machine spirit means you get one shot that is not a snap shot.

 

Firing skyfire and using POTMS to fire at ground targets would at BS1. When using skyfire and firing at a ground unit, you have to snap fire. This is the normal rules for firing. Although POTMS would give you one more shot at full BS, you will still be subject to normal snap shot rules for firing at the ground. POTMS could fire a weapon at a different flyer at full BS but when firing a skyfire weapon at a ground target, that's not something that can ignore the skyfire rules.

 

In other words, you get one more full shot than normal; but if you take that shot at something that has more restrictions then you are subject to those restrictions.

 

 

Anyway, just my thougts on the rules.

 

It's probably not RAW, but I think this is the way I'm going to play it. It makes to most sense out of any of the options, and seems to break the game the least. :D

[Grey Mage]

PotMS says its at full BS. Signum says its at BS5. Just because one works one way doesnt mean the other has to aswell.

[ShinyRhino]

PotMS says its at full BS. Signum says its at BS5. Just because one works one way doesnt mean the other has to aswell.

 

As someone above poiinted out, "full BS" for Snap Shots is BS1. However, without my rulebook in my lap, I can't say whether the wording for either Snap Shot or Hard to Hit says that the firer's BS is reduced to BS1, or is simply resolved as BS1. If reduced is the wording, I think you have it here.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hard to hit;

 

Shots resolved at aZoorning Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

 

Snap Shot;

 

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

 

PotMS;

 

the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted

[DK1]

Hard to hit;

 

Shots resolved at aZoorning Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

 

Snap Shot;

 

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

 

PotMS;

 

the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted

 

I just wanted to quote your quotes...anyway i dont think its intended to let PotMS work like skyfire, otherwise God Pattern Land Raiders will rule the skys with TL full BS lascannons shooting down everything flying.

[dswanick]

Hard to hit;

 

Shots resolved at aZoorning Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

 

Snap Shot;

 

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

 

PotMS;

 

the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted

 

I just wanted to quote your quotes...anyway i dont think its intended to let PotMS work like skyfire, otherwise God Pattern Land Raiders will rule the skys with TL full BS lascannons shooting down everything flying.

Yeah, and unfortunately GW didn't think to differentiate causes of Snap Shots. Otherwise PotMS could override Snap Shots due to Movement speed, but not due to Hard to Hit or Evade. As it is written, though, it's an all or nothing - either PotMS can override Snap Shots (regardless of cause) or not.

[DK1]

True, i can see this going either way...i would just roll or ask before a game starts so i know what to plan for.

[Hymirl]

The rulebooks FAQ is somewhat relevant.

 

First it states that the BS of a snapshot can never be modified. PotMS doesn't modify BS, it removes modifiers so it can be considered to 'slip though' this clarification.

 

Secondly, the next question on the FAQ tells us that only snap shots hit flyers.

 

So I say that PotMS does overrule snap shots and uses normal BS, unless you fire at a flyer... In which case you still have to snap shot because that's what the FAQ says.

[kcwm]

POTMS allows an additional attack at full BS, subject to the normal shooting rules.

 

The normal shooting rules is where you find what determines a snap shot.

 

If someone playing against me went to do that, I'd quickly label them as :cuss/WAAC.

 

If POTMS worked that way, it'd be so incredibly powerful and give SM chapters a pretty distinct advantage over other codices.