Hellios Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 it's pretty much the same with all xenos: marines sell, the rest is there for the roflstomping. Chaos is a xenos faction: we don't get ATSKNF. As an Eldar player I feel I must point out that the Eldar codex has been known to be alright from time to time... Flying circus list, 99 AP2 shots a turn list and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I am deeply disappointed by this. That is all I have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhorzh Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Well, I still think that CSM codex is designed to work with the future Daemon Codex. Still waiting for it before I give my final judgement... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Well, I still think that CSM codex is designed to work with the future Daemon Codex. Still waiting for it before I give my final judgement... This would surprise me. All the special rules in our codex state that they only effect units from C:CSM. Simultaneously, it was FAQ'd that most effects from the daemon codex don't work at all with CSM (Epi being one notable exception); despite our armies being battle brothers, GW seems hell-bent on disallowing synergy. Now I am going to rant a bit: for some reason we can't even use the silly daemons' icons- accurate deepstriking is basically impossible for CSM now, but the stupid loyalists have DoA, teleport homers, ect. The old dex was crappy, but deepstriking accuracy is something I sorely miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Really short on time (partly because I've been studying the Dark Angels dex heh) but: Powerwise I'm kinda dissapointed by the Dark Angels codex. Some things: -Their Tactical Squads stand out to me as one of the good choices. That's not a good sign in a way, although it does say something about that unit in itself. For us however this doesn't mean much: Grey Hunters already outperformed our CSM easily. But yeah, its ridiculous that they don't have to take a Vet Sergeant, can get 1 Heavy in 5 man and have Flakk ML's. It just doesn't make any sense. Do I care in the end? Nope, I'm running Plague Marines. -Their fighters suck, like really. I tried to make them somewhat good, but they just aren't, -Their Terminators are Terminators, just a bit better and they pay for this. (and they pay enough imo) Yes, especially the Knights kill CSM easily, but so did other termies. Careface basicly. Oh yeah, the normal ones are good with shooting while coming from deepstrike and the Knights are T5 when bunched up. Thank you, eat Plasma Cannons from Oblits please. -They got "super buff banners". But those banners are only survivable in Terminator Command Squads (3 man Ravenwing command squad lolol, 5 man PA command squad lolol), which only can be taken by certain characters. Basicly you'll see them in Deathwing armies including Belial. Can't care about all Terminator armies when we got Oblits and Plasma in our troops, sorry. Edit: Well I guess you could make a Deathstar with the Ravenwing Command squad by putting some characters in their. Chumbalaya from 3++ got the idea for example of putting Sammuel, Libby on bike and an allied SM captain in there, but I don't reckon you'll see this a lot lol. -Azraël is all kinds of awesome, like really. Have him in a 50 man IG squad and cry. Yeah that's allies, the codex seems kinda made to be used along with IG. -Ravenwing armies can be dangerous, but Helldrakes are thé most effective unit in the game against them. Yay for us I guess? I wouldn't be too jealous at the Dark Angels from a competitive point of view. From complete codex points of view? Myeah, a bit, then again we already figured that the Chaos dex isn't too exciting right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 yeah DA are dirty with ally rules in effect. IG spaming AC ... plasma on vets ? here take this 5 man las armed minimax and ultra IG commander[getting throught those sgts with the +4 inv bubble ... the horror the horror] . there are also some lol combos . like jaws and stasis bomb . or taking double invisibility libbis[1 ally sm] and trolling others with cover saves. I cant agree with you on the terminator builds Zhukov . yes pure terminator armies are probably dead , yes terminators are hurt by plasma[but then again it is not like it is something new] , but DW assault is a realy flexible rule right now . being able to pick the turn you want to deep strike on is realy powerful . As far as the anti chaos stuff goes. yes they do have it for free . kind of a kick in the nut , but imagine how nid players felt when their kickers came out before their dex [iG and SW]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayray Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I'm with zhukov on this one. You want to bring those termies? GREAT. pack them in for that deep strike. My helldrake is now more points efficient due to ravenwing. My already cheap cultist blobs find even more service against yet another army. Yup, thanks gw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImperialGuardian Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I tried to relate both the DA and Chaos codex prices to predict the new vanilla marine points... you might find some of this interesting. It was more balanced than i expected http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=269525 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 You are of course missing one big thing: The space marines are the poster boys, they are going to get something ridiculous for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 You are of course missing one big thing: The space marines are the poster boys, they are going to get something ridiculous for sure! DA are poster boys this edition. But still, every next codex has all the good stuff from previous + a little bonuses here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Well, with all the plasma around nowadays I'm actually dusting off my old Thousand Sons... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I've heard mixed results on the power level, and that doesn't surprise me. The book is new enough, with enough options and special rules, that I expect it to take a few months at least to settle. For diversity and fun value it looks far superior to ours, but unlike competitive balance, their strength in that department doesn't have to come at anyone else's expense. A boring and half hearted DA codex would not have made our codex more fun or more of a finished product. I'm not really one of the 'share the misery' types, so while it doesn't alleviate my disappointment at the state of the CSM book, I'm happy the DA book looks more fun and interesting for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 but DW assault is a realy flexible rule right now . being able to pick the turn you want to deep strike on is realy powerful . I agree, but i've yet to see a good list with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoteForPedro Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Nothing in the book blows me away or makes me too sad as a Chaos player. I like their cheap Tac squads being able to take a heavy weapon for 5 man squads. The dirt cheap Divination Librarian is also win. What does make me disapointed is how quickly our dex is becoming mono-build: spam Heldrakes. What is most worrying about this is that it's only going to get easier to kill flyers as more and more dexes come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Heldrakes, Mark of Nurgle all around, maybe throw some Khorne in there for flavor. That's probably going to be the gist for CSM for the next few years. Joy. What annoys me is that the codex seems like it was written as a counter to CSM. It's not like the CSM codex is overly powerful, so when the next codex out starts handing out preferred enemy (CSM) to units, it just seems gratuitous. Teleport homers and the DW ability to arrive first or second turn as they desire is just cruel when compared to the Dimensional Key, the changed Icon behavior, and the fact that Warp Talons are just begging for some way to control DS behavior. Sadly, I think things will just get worse from here on out, with the next codex tightening the screws on CSM even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaria Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I've been reading and re-reading the DA codex from sunday. Its one more marines ++ codex, nothing more, nothing less. The power armoured DA:s are cheaper than any other color of marines, but still cost a bit more than CSM and unlike SW you can't make the power armoured DA:s close-combat heroes or multi-purpose units. CSM still do both of these a LOT better. Inner Circle units get Preferred Enemy (CSM) but they are so damn powerfull in close combat that you really want to drop a Vindicator pie-plate on them instead of ever going within 12" of them anyway. I think the biggest threat for CSM will not be power armour DA, but combined Ravenwing / Deathwing lists. The Ravenwing will be a pain to kill with their Scout move and Darkshrouds and once they get within 12" of you the Terminators will drop in due to teleport homers and slaughter EVERYONE with their brand new Split Fire and "everything-will-be-twinlinked" rules. They are a true Alpha-strike army but if you can survive that first turn you will be on even footing in shootyness and quite good in assaulting. Just a little tip: The Flyers may SEEM crappy, and on their own they are, but they aren't the whole game... The purpose of the Nephilim is to drop things like Heldrakes and its quite good in that while the purpose of the Dark Talon is to deal with hordes and drop you initiative and weapon skill to 1 when you can least afford it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empchildrenbob Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 and what is this mono build? i would like to know. Not just "'spawn heldrakes" because thats not a list. Thats like saying necrons are mono build, just "spawn night scythes and grey knight allies" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 soooooo yeah. i played a deathwing army yesterday. let's just say i won't be doing that agian. what the $#!+!? deep strike no scatter turn 1 or 2, twin linked on turn of arrival AND splitfire? did GW even consider what that would do to anyone? how about this: 2 rhinos, 8 marines, 5 havocs dead before the bottom of turn 1. oh and a wound on my helbrute. and i didn't even have to deal with knights and their crap +1 ap vs chaos rule. i can only hope the rest of their dex isn't that bloody ridiculous. my soul hurts. got one piece of good news tho, there's a new night lords player at my FLGS. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Yeah I'm starting to think the easiest way to survive this DW is to castle up in a corner. Don't really know what else we have that can stand up to them. Maybe reserve alot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Yeah I'm starting to think the easiest way to survive this DW is to castle up in a corner. Don't really know what else we have that can stand up to them. Maybe reserve alot? I did that, i started running huron blackheart some time ago to give myself a guaranteed outflank since my chosen can't do that anymore i was nearly tabled by the middle of 2. i think i had a wounded helbrute, huron, and 4 termies left. pieplate central came in on 2, and it would have leveled the playing field if it weren't already a smoking crater full of dead chaos marines. the plasma forgefiend is a godsend, but its 200 pts and outranged, so you basically have to hope they roll dick on their dice. but yeah man if you can get some shots off say goodbye to DW. i even killed belial with one shot. really the only highlight of that game. edit: derpy typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Anyone have some suggestions as to how to survive the DA alpha strike then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 soooooo yeah. i played a deathwing army yesterday. let's just say i won't be doing that agian. what the $#!+!? deep strike no scatter turn 1 or 2, twin linked on turn of arrival AND splitfire? did GW even consider what that would do to anyone? how about this: 2 rhinos, 8 marines, 5 havocs dead before the bottom of turn 1. oh and a wound on my helbrute. and i didn't even have to deal with knights and their crap +1 ap vs chaos rule. i can only hope the rest of their dex isn't that bloody ridiculous. my soul hurts. got one piece of good news tho, there's a new night lords player at my FLGS. I haven't used the new DA dex yet... I have however played DW for some time. Previously DW have been rather weak. Their combat output hasn't been any greater than other terminators (often less due to mixed weapons) and again their shooting hasn't been better. They have been slightly more flexible. Now my understanding of the new dex is that DW is more expensive but gets some pretty good boons for that extra cost. Now because they deepstike and come in the first 2 turns (not scatter) they have the initiative when it comes to deploying unless you have something that can disrupt them like warpquake (GK) or a Land Speeder Storm (SM). Having twin-linked weapons the turn they come in also gives their firepower a boost and helps them neutralize some chosen threats before you get to strike. I'm going to assume that you are not tailoring your list. First you need to figure out where the DW player is going to do the most damage, is he planning to soften you with shooting and the clean up in combat or is he aiming for combat straight away with some shooting as a bonus? You should then deploy accordingly. If you think your rhinos are doomed anyway (for example) deploy them as a wall to block LoS to a unit you want to survive (like havoks). Use terrain to help protect you from shooting (blocking LoS is ideal but a cover save is ok) and also slow down any assaults; multi-level buildings would be ideal. Basically you want to weather the storm and buy as many turns to do what you want as you can... That will probably only be 1 turn, maybe 2. If a squads runs around 300pts you are probably looking at ~20 terminators at 1,500pts. Plasma and other AP2 weapons are great but massed fire from bolters or cultists can kill too. Concentrate on a unit and move on. It might not be easy but small armies are rarely unstoppable. --EDIT-- I realise this is very vague but it really depends on what they plan to do, what you have and the terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 i ran like 6 plasma, 4 melta, power fists, vindicator and plasma forgefiend. that's pretty much tailoring. the problem is surviving the first turn. as i said in my previous tale of suffering and loss: when you lose like 80% of your tabled force in the first half of the first turn of the game it really doesn't even matter whether you tailored or not. concentration of fire and plasma OD is exactly how i've always handled DW, but now that they can shoot 2 things with one unit and reroll all misses (not to mention misses of 1 in melee AND shooting for the entire game) there's really nothing to be done except bleed all over the place. even my friend who brought the army was like "damn, that's not even fair" after we saw how the game was going. so i guess there's that. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 i ran like 6 plasma, 4 melta, power fists, vindicator and plasma forgefiend. that's pretty much tailoring. the problem is surviving the first turn. as i said in my previous tale of suffering and loss: when you lose like 80% of your tabled force in the first half of the first turn of the game it really doesn't even matter whether you tailored or not. concentration of fire and plasma OD is exactly how i've always handled DW, but now that they can shoot 2 things with one unit and reroll all misses (not to mention misses of 1 in melee AND shooting for the entire game) there's really nothing to be done except bleed all over the place. even my friend who brought the army was like "damn, that's not even fair" after we saw how the game was going. so i guess there's that. lol Well as I say I don't have the codex so I can't swear? Are you certain it wasn't a bad game? We have all had a crazy result, now and again. Reserving is something I have mixed feelings about. If you get everything coming in at once it can be great but you risk being eaten piecemeal. I'm also not happy about strong bonuses being given to certain armies against very specific enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Well as I say I don't have the codex so I can't swear? Are you certain it wasn't a bad game? We have all had a crazy result, now and again. Reserving is something I have mixed feelings about. If you get everything coming in at once it can be great but you risk being eaten piecemeal. I'm also not happy about strong bonuses being given to certain armies against very specific enemies. yeah we did 2 games, that was actually the 2nd, and it was the better game :( first game my dice were like YOU HAVEN'T FED US ENOUGH BLOOD SO WE HATE YOU. i died even faster. i had infiltrated some units to try and stay spread out so he couldn't focus as easily on a mass of troops. i still think castling in a corner is probably the best idea now. at least that way if i survive the alpha strike i can shoot him with all of what's left. honestly it's just not fun. i don't mind losing, i'm used to it with my list. (it's solid and gotten a bit scarier with 6th and some tweaks, but it's just so below average on power level compared to what i tend to see in my area.) it's getting decimated before i can even move a model that really irks me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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