Iron Sage Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Meh, I`ve read the DA codex, and I don`t get what everyone is up in arms about. Our codex is just as good as theirs, just different and maybe more boring, but hardly weaker. That having been said, I really liked the DA codex. Vetok did a nice job and it will be fun to play against, balanced and nice as it is But their's is NEWER! You just dont understand... *Grins* It`s clear to me that we both understand the issue here ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 The DA Codex is shiny! Bow to the shiny! Worship the shiny! Let the shiny have its way with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Shiny ? realy , you dont see see what timed reservs and having access to minimax for an imperial army which cann BB IG ? what kind of an argument is that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Not that shiny when you take a look to their FAQ, by the way. As usual, perfect codex writing by GW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Sure, timed reserves is a powerful rule, and likewise is having access to divination and battle brother allies. But the codex alone, is hardly overpowered. Its a nice book though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Again Jeske, Newm. I wasn't saying it sucked. I was echoing Iron Sage's sentiments. Yes, it is new.(part 1 of Shiny) Yes it has some good things going for it.(Part 2 of shiny) But just because it's shiny doesn't mean it signals the end of our world. Yet what did everyone(as a generality for the Chaos community) do when it came out? "Dark Angels a brand spanking new shiny Codex! FML man!" Yes, Turn 1 DS by Termies with Twin-linke weapons and PE: CSM is still going to be an obstacle to overcome. As are 5-man squads carrying heavy weapons even though we can do the same now with a limitation on variety due to it being NM squads with Blastmasters. But that's all it is, shiny. The problems may not be as obvious as ours, but they are there. It's a matter of putting on some shades and looking for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Not that shiny when you take a look to their FAQ, by the way. As usual, perfect codex writing by GW. Are you referring to the fact they have so many errors in their codex (misprints etc) or the fact they've already been down powered .. I don't see the second bit. Yes, Turn 1 DS by Termies with Twin-linke weapons and PE: CSM is still going to be an unobstacle to overcome. As are 5-man squads carrying heavy weapons even though we can do the same now with a limitation on variety due to it being NM squads with Blastmasters. But that's all it is, shiny. The problems may not be as obvious as ours, but they are there. It's a matter of putting on some shades and looking for them. Have we thought of the kind of force they could put in a DS attack altogether? the numbers that is? 10? 15 models in 1500 to 2000 point game? That's not a lot and would be a hell of a lot of plasma in the average CSM army coming back them (just worked out it would be around 10 to 15 if only half the army can start in reserve, that's assuming you're including Belial and a command squad then a squad to get maximum bolters and Plasma Cannons) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 What they start out with isn't the problem, it's what they field later on and the manner it can be fielded that is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Not that shiny when you take a look to their FAQ, by the way. As usual, perfect codex writing by GW. Are you referring to the fact they have so many errors in their codex (misprints etc) or the fact they've already been down powered .. I don't see the second bit. Errors, typos, and all that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Personally, I would take DA codex into the store and ask for a refund or a replacement that doesn't have entire sections incorrect... It's not about the hobby, it's about quality control and basic consumer rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Yes, Turn 1 DS by Termies with Twin-linke weapons and PE: CSM is still going to be an unobstacle to overcome. As are 5-man squads carrying heavy weapons even though we can do the same now with a limitation on variety due to it being NM squads with Blastmasters. But that's all it is, shiny. The problems may not be as obvious as ours, but they are there. It's a matter of putting on some shades and looking for them. I dont see where the problem part is . they can BB IG , suppresion fire and flyer support is easily covered by them . being able to make IG blobs 50% immune bale flamers and templates in general is a huge boost . They will no longer play with 20-25 terminators , but 10-15 but the problem is not if we can kill them with our whole army [in general if a 1500+pts cant deal with 600pts then the DT droped the ball somewhere] , but that to deal with 10 SS protected terminators we have to relocate too much fire power and what is also rather important our best unit doesnt deal well with +2sv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Jeske, I just have to ask...what the heck is that in your avatar??? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Jeske, word of advice. 1.) Stop assuming everyone is you, that everyone plays like and that everyone thinks like and that every single DA Player is going to be playing a DW Army with IG allies. And look. Like I said the problems are there, it's a matter of finding them. As Vesper said, no Codex is perfect and neither is any list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 What are you suggesting then Kol_Saresk, how to counter a random DA player in a local shop who takes some random units to tailor against your list or? That's not really helpfull for 99,9% of the people visiting this forum is it? The people who are gonna want to field an effective DA army áre most likely going to field some DW Termies with allied IG blob, simply because the rest gets roasted by helldrakes trololol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 This is what I know, the DA players were thinking of Four Armies, Deathwing, Ravenwing, Greenwing and Combi-wing(allies-lists fall into this category). That was pre-FAQ so I'm not sure what damage has been done. Unlike us, I would take it from you comment that the biggest concern they face is the Heldrake, so there's one, as well as any armies that can beat 2+ saves with 3++ backups while we have to worry about everything still. Now what the answer is, I don't know. It would probably take someone constantly playing against a DW or DW-related Combi-wing to figure out how to beat that ability because it will end up being "Beat the Ability" rather than "Beat the Troops." I'm not sure how the devil it will be beaten, I haven't even seen it in action. So I'm not sure what to suggest. But then again, since the only suggestions I've seen are "Weather the Storm," that might be the answer. But every coin has a tails and a heads. There is something out there, it will just take someone finding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 This is what I know, the DA players were thinking of Four Armies, Deathwing, Ravenwing, Greenwing and Combi-wing(allies-lists fall into this category). That was pre-FAQ so I'm not sure what damage has been done. Unlike us, I would take it from you comment that the biggest concern they face is the Heldrake, so there's one, as well as any armies that can beat 2+ saves with 3++ backups while we have to worry about everything still. Now what the answer is, I don't know. It would probably take someone constantly playing against a DW or DW-related Combi-wing to figure out how to beat that ability because it will end up being "Beat the Ability" rather than "Beat the Troops." I'm not sure how the devil it will be beaten, I haven't even seen it in action. So I'm not sure what to suggest. But then again, since the only suggestions I've seen are "Weather the Storm," that might be the answer. But every coin has a tails and a heads. There is something out there, it will just take someone finding it. So you say you don't know. Well it's not hard to see some things, 40k isn't rocket science and people don't need months to figure out some things: -Helldrakes (and potential Blastmasters) now pretty much hardcounter Ravenwing. -Helldrakes (and potential Blastmasters) now pretty much hardcounter Marines on foot in general. -Pure Deathwing isn't viable. (you autolose against other armies, such as Daemons) -Running a bit of everything still leaves you in a bad place against Chaos, as any non-deathwing still gets BBQ'ed, while the non-Ap3 units will focus on the Deathwing. What is left? Azraël + IG blob and Deathwing, that's about their best bet as a general setup. Honestly, the game is in a retarded state at the moment: -Mech doesn't work well anymore, so people run more units on foot. -Units on foot get harcountered by Helldrakes and Daemons. -Cron air and Vendettas fly around making "trololol" noises in the meanwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Honestly, the game is in a retarded state at the moment: -Mech doesn't work well anymore, so people run more units on foot. -Units on foot get harcountered by Helldrakes and Daemons. -Cron air and Vendettas fly around making "trololol" noises in the meanwhile. An apt description of the meta. Of course 'competitive' 40k has always been rather strange, but the fact that some units are so far and away better than others is having a destabilizing effect. Flamers alone reshaped how armies are taken and used in comp settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 And what is the solution to Azraël + IG blob and Deathwing? That's my point, as far as I know, I haven't seen an answer to this problem. There is an answer. If you know it, then please by all means enlighten me because I don't know it. This is the problem everyone is focusing on and yet, I see no answers and because there have yet to be any answers, everyone is just bowing before it. That's all I am saying. It looks like instead of searching for a solution on how to counter, everyone is just going "Well this is what can do. We're screwed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 How about a big blob of zerks? Tons of attacks, should wear down the blob itself. Azrael I have no idea though. Does he have any anti armor capability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Zerks have no defense against the DW. Their biggest weakness at the moment is surviving the Shooting phase. They can handle the IG blobs no problem with Chainaxes, although at that point, there is probably an argument in points efficiency for taking smaller, cheaper NM squads with Sonic Blasters are any of our other Troop Choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Not given this much thought myself as of yet, but lots of plasma seems to be appropriate. Obviously a large ammount of small arms fire should statistically kill more than a few terminators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Wouldn't that be great if Berzerkers still had 3.5 chainaxes ? You know, those who forced 4+ saves at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 And what is the solution to Azraël + IG blob and Deathwing? That's my point, as far as I know, I haven't seen an answer to this problem. There is an answer. If you know it, then please by all means enlighten me because I don't know it. This is the problem everyone is focusing on and yet, I see no answers and because there have yet to be any answers, everyone is just bowing before it. That's all I am saying. It looks like instead of searching for a solution on how to counter, everyone is just going "Well this is what can do. We're screwed." HuH? Who are these "everyone" you're speaking of? You sure you aren't just making assumptions there? When I say that Azraël + IG blob + Vendetta + Deathwing are their best bet, I'm not saying that it counters our lists... It's a fair game. I don't believe Jeske thinks this either. So yeah, not sure what kind of things are all going on in your mind, elaborate please including quotes of 'everyone'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 MSU plague marine squads with 2 plasma might work ok, if you spam enough of them, as that would likely mean several units able to target terminators with plasma shooting. Maybe even vindicators, as they would be not only able to murder terminators but also help massacre guard blobs ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Zerks have no defense against the DW. Their biggest weakness at the moment is surviving the Shooting phase. They can handle the IG blobs no problem with Chainaxes, although at that point, there is probably an argument in points efficiency for taking smaller, cheaper NM squads with Sonic Blasters are any of our other Troop Choices. Yes they are defenseless against DW, but we were talking about Azrael and the IG blob. For DW, they'll need to be in transports and wait until the blob closes in while our other stuff (stuff with plasma) deals with the DW. Eh, NM would be able to handle them too that's true. Really any of our cult troops would do well against a blob I think (except TS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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